4mo Biting, Growling

[MsBex]

Hi, back again for more advice please!

Cory seems to have taken 10 steps backwards in the last few days! Has been jumping up, biting, growling at my 6yo son, and also with a 13yro girl I look after. Is this too young to be the defiant teen years? (19 weeks old)

I wouldn't say his behaviour is aggressive, however is overly playful and dominating (too young?)

He's drawn blood on the 13yo, albeit I've had to tell them BOTH off, as she hypes him up.

Cory has been going to puppy obedience for the last 4 weeks, and did 4 weeks puppy pre-school before that. He'll stop when I clap and growl at him, but then go running back for more, so then I've been putting him outside for time-out, but I'm wondering if there are better ways? Most of this behaviour is directed at the kids. Generally speaking he's always been quite a confident, active and mouthy puppy, not scared of anything so far.

I've also been trying to teach him his place, by making him sit/drop for anything, eat after us, get my son to pretend to eat his food and things like that.

Thanks for your help.

Rebecca

[Cosmolo]

I'd likely consider using an aversive in this instance- pup needs to know that this behaviour is absolutely not okay. What have you tried so far and what have your puppy school/ puppy obedience instructors told you to do?

I wouldn't say its dominating- more just learning and discovering what he can and can't do and what happens when he does the behaviour- if there is any squealing going on or the children run, swing arms etc- pup has learned this is the greatest game in existence!

[MsBex]

I'd likely consider using an aversive in this instance- pup needs to know that this behaviour is absolutely not okay. What have you tried so far and what have your puppy school/ puppy obedience instructors told you to do?

I wouldn't say its dominating- more just learning and discovering what he can and can't do and what happens when he does the behaviour- if there is any squealing going on or the children run, swing arms etc- pup has learned this is the greatest game in existence!

Haven't spoken to the instructors about this as it seems to have just surfaced in the last few days, but will bring it up on Saturday!

Definately squealing and inciting from the 13yo, although circumstances have changed for her, so Cory won't be seeing her from next week. With my son, hes actually very calm, and will be watching TV with the Cocker jumping up like a loon to grab a toe or finger. My response to this is to step into his space with a loud "BAH" and hand clapping etc. Cory will back off, run around the couch for about 30 secs, then come chasing him again. My next step is placing him either outside or in the bathroom for a few minutes as a time-out. He's usually a bit calmer when he's allowed to return, but before long will be looking for trouble again.

I'm wondering whether its excess energy? I haven't been taking him for walks, as he's quite young, but we do play some fetch and do some training (randomly) through the day.

What sort of aversives would you recommend?

Thanks for your input Cosmolo.

[Aidan]

Studies of time-outs have shown shorter time-outs to be more effective than longer time-outs (say, 20 seconds compared to 1 minute). Most likely because they allow for more trials (3 very short time-outs will give the dog more opportunities to learn what is causing them than 1 long time-out will).

Marking the behaviour that earned the time-out also makes them more likely to succeed. I use a neutral tone of voice, angry tones of voice can make the dog anxious and less likely to learn from the experience. As you have experienced, pup "frolics" when you "BAH!", which can be a reaction to stress, in this case leading to more of the unwanted behaviour (hence, it is not an effective punisher).

[persephone]

Not sure, but loud noise and hand clapping may well stir a pup up more then just a very quiet and forceful walking right up to him..looming over him...with maybe a low growl.... no speaking. if you can thus get him to back away slowly- that's good.

19 weeks is not 'quite young'

he ideally will be having a couple of short obedience sessions each day, plus at least one walk outside. If he has not been out walking, how have you socialised him ?

Walking on lead, being taught how to walk correctly (ie: NO sniffing etc unless YOU say) is hard work for a dog.. and will usually lead to a much calmer dog ..as their brains are tired

[corvus]

Sometimes time outs can just rev them up. You don't want to get trapped in the thinking that you isolate them for a transgression, but then they start barking and fussing, and you have to wait for them to be quiet before you let them back out again.

Here's a nice article from Dee Ganley about training impulse control in dogs: http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf

I should be doing this more stringently with my two, who get way over-excited sometimes. I can get my older dog to calm down pretty quickly and easily, but then the young ratbag will bite his foot and I lose as they start at it again. If it's really getting crazy they get crated with a pig's ear. This is because I am lazy and like quick fixes at 8pm at night when I am trying to take it easy! We are getting there slowly, though. This is something I should have started on right from the start, but I thought I'd wait to see if they calmed down on their own, and they did a good deal, but still just get silly sometimes and need to be put in downs and practice things like down stays for a while.

[MsBex]

Thanks guys.

Aidan - Good tip, we'll start with shorter time-outs, and the BAH doesn't seem to scare him, although does put him off, but makes him a bit rebellious! Starts barking at me instead! I'll try with more assertive yet calmer (aka quieter) commands.

Persephone - I did start taking him for walks but the instructor said to get him better at 'heeling' before I do, as at the moment it takes forever to walk to the end of the street! When he starts pulling ahead I turn around and walk a different direction and treat when he's walking in step! I know what you mean by head-tired, cause I'm exhausted after it

As for socialisation he gets to play with other dogs at dog school, and also my neighbours staffy x cattle, and occasionally my sister's staffy (although I'm waiting for Cory to get a bit bigger as Storm is a powerful Staffy (dog friendly but unintentional injuries). Also I take Cory to school for pick up/drop offs, he comes to work with me to play with the girls (24hr shifts). Haven't done the dog park, as would like him to be a bit bigger and better recall first.

Thanks for the link Corvus, looks good. Will try anything

[Nekhbet]

unless you condition your puppy to commands it wont 'listen' as we seem to think they naturally will

dont be afraid to touch your dog - if it gets antsy at the children grab it by the collar and settle it down. If it tries to nip or throws a tantrum just hold it until it settles.

As for the biting if it ever tries to do it, put your thumb under the tongue and press until the pup gives up (not the kids, you teach this) and then walk off on it. Your children come first when it comes to teaching the dog that any mouthing/biting is never acceptable no matter how razzed up it gets.

Time outs ultimately are useless, as is eating before the dog for a hard little pup. Keep him on a leash or supervise closely and as soon as he gets too boistrous 'ARGGHHH' and settle him before he plays again.

[Diablo]

unless you condition your puppy to commands it wont 'listen' as we seem to think they naturally will

dont be afraid to touch your dog - if it gets antsy at the children grab it by the collar and settle it down. If it tries to nip or throws a tantrum just hold it until it settles.

As for the biting if it ever tries to do it, put your thumb under the tongue and press until the pup gives up (not the kids, you teach this) and then walk off on it. Your children come first when it comes to teaching the dog that any mouthing/biting is never acceptable no matter how razzed up it gets.

Time outs ultimately are useless, as is eating before the dog for a hard little pup. Keep him on a leash or supervise closely and as soon as he gets too boistrous 'ARGGHHH' and settle him before he plays again.

I agree with Nekhbet's advice..........the thumb under the tongue is a brilliant correction for needle sharp teeth nips, works a treat

[MsBex]

unless you condition your puppy to commands it wont 'listen' as we seem to think they naturally will

dont be afraid to touch your dog - if it gets antsy at the children grab it by the collar and settle it down. If it tries to nip or throws a tantrum just hold it until it settles.

As for the biting if it ever tries to do it, put your thumb under the tongue and press until the pup gives up (not the kids, you teach this) and then walk off on it. Your children come first when it comes to teaching the dog that any mouthing/biting is never acceptable no matter how razzed up it gets.

Time outs ultimately are useless, as is eating before the dog for a hard little pup. Keep him on a leash or supervise closely and as soon as he gets too boistrous 'ARGGHHH' and settle him before he plays again.

I agree with Nekhbet's advice..........the thumb under the tongue is a brilliant correction for needle sharp teeth nips, works a treat

Thanks Nekhbet and Diablo, must admit the thumb under the tongue is a little hard to know if I'm doing it right ... lol. I think I am he doesn' seem to like it much, and seems to be getting the idea that biting means 'play over'. Had a bit of improvement the last few days (although I've been dog-sitting the neighbours dog, so it may be because he's tired from all the play ), will keep working at it.

[luvsdogs]

Check out this link, it may help.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppy...ing-12-18-weeks

[Nekhbet]

Thanks Nekhbet and Diablo, must admit the thumb under the tongue is a little hard to know if I'm doing it right ... lol. I think I am he doesn' seem to like it much, and seems to be getting the idea that biting means 'play over'. Had a bit of improvement the last few days (although I've been dog-sitting the neighbours dog, so it may be because he's tired from all the play biggrin.gif ), will keep working at it.

ohhh no he's not meant to like it it is showing the dog that biting has unpleasant consequences! If he's giving up on biting you it means its working, it's not meant to hurt the dog merely just be unpleasant.

Quickest way to ensure they stop as dogs will not continue a behavior that 1) doesnt get them something nice or 2) gets them something unpleasant every time they do it

he will learn just like kids they take a little time and try your patience but its worth it in the end

[MsBex]

unless you condition your puppy to commands it wont 'listen' as we seem to think they naturally will

dont be afraid to touch your dog - if it gets antsy at the children grab it by the collar and settle it down. If it tries to nip or throws a tantrum just hold it until it settles.

As for the biting if it ever tries to do it, put your thumb under the tongue and press until the pup gives up (not the kids, you teach this) and then walk off on it. Your children come first when it comes to teaching the dog that any mouthing/biting is never acceptable no matter how razzed up it gets.

Time outs ultimately are useless, as is eating before the dog for a hard little pup. Keep him on a leash or supervise closely and as soon as he gets too boistrous 'ARGGHHH' and settle him before he plays again.

Nekhbet or Diablo (or anyone else who knows please!)

I just realised last night that I think I got this whole 'thumb under the tongue thing' backwards.

Although I haven't had to do it alot lately, last night I was having a stand-off with Cory as every time I'd tell him off (for stealing shoes/socks/undies/rubbish etc) he'd bark and try to bite me (not very hard, but very defiantly) ... anyway I remembered this advice so put my thumb under his tongue, and pressed down on the bottom of his jaw. Anyway, I just had a thought that in fact I was supposed to be applying pressure to the actual tongue, rather than the bottom of his mouth?

Is that right? Pressure to the tongue? Feel a little silly now ... haha, and even more so for still not knowing

Thanks

[Nekhbet]

no under the tongue. That way if the dog decides to bite down they get their own tongue instead - it's teaching a double whammy

[Lucy's mama]

We are having a very similiar problem with our 10 week old Australian shepherd. We were warned he would do it and thought we were prepared - but holy cow this guy is determined to sink his teeth into my son! Yesterday he put holes through his shirt and teeth marks in his back and side in one quick lunge-and-grab.

He seems to get better for a few days (usually when son has been at kindy, he carries the calm of the day through the afternoon even when things are getting busy around him IYKWIM?) then he get worse than ever! I am dreading school holidays!

Timeout obviously isn't working. I think it takes too long for me to get him there. I am now going to try keeping him on-lead whenever he is not in the puppy pen, with a small amount of free time in the yard while my son is inside.

We have been working on 'GIVE' and 'SIT' and 'DOWN' four or five times a day thinking that he can't jump while he is siting or down etc, but we are a long way from being obeyed when he is excited.

Puppy school have asked us to do bite inhibition exercises 100 times a day, which seems to have taught him not to mouth me hard (but mouth me more), but the kids are still fair game.

I will try the pressure under the tongue too I think.

Any other advice?

[poodlefan]

Puppy school have asked us to do bite inhibition exercises 100 times a day, which seems to have taught him not to mouth me hard (but mouth me more), but the kids are still fair game.

Any other advice?

Yes, teach your puppy not to mouth you at at all. Simple rule - no mouth on any part of anyone's body. Far easier to teach the pup a simple prohibition rather than "sometimes its OK to mouth provided you don't do it too hard".

Organise play dates with other pup owners. Let the pups teach each other bite inhibition. You teach no mouthing people at all.

[pixie_meg]

We've got the same problem here. I've had a lot of advice. Nothing really seems to be working. With our eldest who is 5 we have been teaching her to be dominant over pup when he gets too playful. eg, not backing away, walking toward him, staying strong, not squealing. Its a long process since she is young and not squealing when a pup is coming at you is tough. but i'm seeing improvements from both dog and kid. My 3yr old is another matter. So i think the biting is both kid and dog problems so you need to go from both ends. Just remember pup just wants to play, its natural.

We tried telling him off, time out, ignoring play, growling, forcibly stopping him. just my experience but the kid enabling response seems to be working.

[Aidan]

Although I haven't had to do it alot lately, last night I was having a stand-off with Cory as every time I'd tell him off (for stealing shoes/socks/undies/rubbish etc) he'd bark and try to bite me (not very hard, but very defiantly) ...

It's a good thing he's just a pup. Guess who would win if he wasn't?

This isn't really so much about him stealing stuff, or barking, or even biting. It's about the fact that you try to tell him off and he can bark at or bite you if he doesn't like it, he's found a weak boundary. Sure, you can up the ante and use a consequence that is actually meaningful, but my question is - why isn't he trying to figure out what you would like him to do? Rather than trying to figure out how far he can go before you get serious?

You solve the shoes/underwear/rubbish problem by putting them behind closed doors or in secure bins. You teach him to come to you and trade so that when one of the kids gets lazy and leaves their shoes by the door he isn't chewing them or burying them, he's bringing them to you so you can swap them for something he is allowed to chew or bury. That is an example of him figuring out what you would like him to do, rather than trying to figure out what he can get away with.

Chances are, if you do effectively punish him for stealing stuff he will just steal stuff when you're not around. He's learned to look for the things he can get away with. My suggestion is to turn that around and teach him to look for things he can do to please you, to seek out the rewards.

[Cosmolo]

What bite inhibition exercise are you meant to be doing 100 times a day?? Puppies should be taught not to put their mouth around a person ever. I have dogs here with excellent bite inhibition that have never ever been allowed to mouth people.

IMO (and plenty will disagree) people are crappy teachers of bite inhibition because we would be so inconsistent- from one person to the next and depending on where the pup mouths you or what you're wearing. If i have a thick jumper on and pup mouths i will be able to tolerate more than bare skin. I will be able to tolerate more than a child or grandmother. So how is the message of when is 'too hard' consistent? Its not.

Bite inhibition is best learned with littermates and then through appropriate socialisation with other puppies and dogs. If you have tried more than 2 things to stop a puppy mouthing and they have not worked, you need someone to show you what to do because regardless of what you've tried, it is either the wrong technique for the pup, the timing is poor or there is something else at play that needs to be addressed. Don't keep trying technique after technique because by the time you then seek help not only has the pup practiced the behaviour for longer but they will have also learned better evasion tactics which will make everything more difficult!

[poodlefan]

What bite inhibition exercise are you meant to be doing 100 times a day?? Puppies should be taught not to put their mouth around a person ever. I have dogs here with excellent bite inhibition that have never ever been allowed to mouth people.

IMO (and plenty will disagree) people are crappy teachers of bite inhibition because we would be so inconsistent- from one person to the next and depending on where the pup mouths you or what you're wearing. If i have a thick jumper on and pup mouths i will be able to tolerate more than bare skin. I will be able to tolerate more than a child or grandmother. So how is the message of when is 'too hard' consistent? Its not.

The other variable that isn't factored in when teaching to mouth "gently" is that a pup's going to grow, it's jaw's going to grow and it's strength will too. "Gently" in a baby puppy ain't going to mean the same thing when puppy is a large adult dog.

I agree Cosmolo - far better to teach no mouthing. Young children shouldn't be expected to have to deal with mouthy pups either - that'a parent's job.

Edited December 3, 2009 by poodlefan