Aggression

[corvus]

Seeing as no one else seems to want to start a new topic to avoid derailing the formal heel on the right side topic, I'll do it.

The only thing of relevence is simply if the dog exhibits a particular behaviour or it doesn't.

I think that this attitude is a bit of a dangerous one. I believe that once a behaviour is in an animal's repertoire, it's always in an animal's repitoire. If it never crops up ever again, then maybe you were lucky, maybe you addressed the root of the problem so well that it's no longer a problem, or maybe you are really good at management and have always erred on the side of caution. You'll probably never know. Suppression is all well and good as long as it works, but you have to consider whether you've addressed the root of the problem or not. If you haven't, then you're pinning everything on your power to suppress the expression of whatever emotion caused the aggression in the first place. Whereas if you address the root of the problem by changing the very response to whatever first caused aggression, then you don't have to pin everything on whether you can intimidate your animal sufficiently or not. Assuming that suppression can only be achieved through intimidation - someone jump in if I'm wrong - and continues to rely on intimidation.

You have the choice to suppress the symptoms or address the root of the problem. You may be lucky to have the exact same results whichever you choose to do, but to say that it doesn't matter what method you chose as long as the aggression isn't displayed is over-simplifying it. For myself, what is even more relevant than whether the dog exhibits aggression or not is the risk of it exhibiting aggression in the future or not. Behaviour modification in general is very much about assessing likelihoods. I don't want to sound rude or derogatory, but to ignore that I think would be like jumping into the surf and trying to bob over every wave with the reasoning that a wave is only relevant when it dumps you. Sooner or later you'll get dumped. Unless you swim in a bay. :D

[Cosmolo]

I disagree with that comment too Corvus- there is much more involvd than whether a dog shows the behaviour or not. I'd like to know what others consider to be cured and if they think problematic aggression is ever cured too?

I spoke to an overseas trainer recently who said she considered cured dogs to be able to exhibit sound behaviour in the absence of the owner

[Aidan]

I spoke to an overseas trainer recently who said she considered cured dogs to be able to exhibit sound behaviour in the absence of the owner

... someone who doesn't like to kid themselves, or their clients. I commend them.

[Aidan]

"Cured" to me suggests that aggression is thought of as a disease.

Aggressive behaviour is closer to a symptom, it might be caused by a disease or ailment (if you're lucky it will be one that can be cured!), but it is not the disease in itself. So, my humble opinion, we need to be careful using the word "cured".

It would probably help to define or at least qualify aggression. Aggressive displays, ritualised "fights" and inhibited bites are normal canine behaviour; not always tolerated though. So where appropriate we should probably make some attempt to describe the behaviour itself if referring to something specific. A dog who is doing some excited lunging on the leash is quite different to the dog who has just sunk teeth into your arm and torn flesh. Both have been described as aggression.

[Quickasyoucan]

I spoke to an overseas trainer recently who said she considered cured dogs to be able to exhibit sound behaviour in the absence of the owner

... someone who doesn't like to kid themselves, or their clients. I commend them.

I like this statement too. My personal belief is that ingrained behaviours of any type can't be "cured", but they certainly can be managed with appropriate input from the owner and after all that is our responsibility as owners isn't it in the human world where dogs live.

Maybe if a dog had a tendency towards certain behaviours at a very young age for whatever reason, that could be "cured" by redirection or some other means but once neural pathways have been burned behaviour becomes ingrained (in humans too).

I don't know enough about aggression to comment specifically on that but that's my 5 cents worth from my own experiences (human and dog!).

[Kelpie-i]

Corvus, I agree with what you are saying.

When the dog stops showing the aggression but shows all the evidence of avoidance and displacement behaviours, clearly not comfortable with the situation, this dog is not cured. In fact, I have seen dogs who's aggression has bounced back 10 fold after suppression.

I did a workshop many years ago (nothing to do with aggression) and one of the dogs in attendance, a gorgeous GSD, was dog aggressive. The owner told me that he had been working with a trainer and that the dog was doing really well. Yet when we were out on the field, the owner did keep his distance from the others and the dog was showing all the clear signs of stress and avoidance. It would not take any food from the owner which is almost always a good indicator of high stress levels. The dog's body language was very low and he was constantly turning his head and back and eating grass as a sign of avoidance. The dog was not showing aggression but it was far from cured. Given half an opportunity, this dog would have lunged and bitten the first dog it saw.

Cosmolo, I have heard that too. Brenda Aloff made a similar statement when she came out earlier this year. She stated (not verbatim), that aggression is never cured, rather it's either badly or well managed.

A dog can learn to cope around the situations which triggered the aggression and show no stress signals as well as be taught to give different behaviours to that which he previously believed worked for him, but I most certainly don't think that you can ever cure it. Once behaviour is part of a dog's repertoire it stays with the dog forever, although we can add to his database of behaviours and encourage him to make the correct choices.

Desensitiation is also a very important part in the rehab process since lessening that which the dog is fearful of, assists with the dog's rehab.

If a dog is ever fully cured, then the aggression was either learned or mimicked and it did not come from a deep rooted problem.

[poodlefan]

Maybe some people consider aggression to be "cured" when the dog no longer displays it in situations it previously did.

Yes, training can raise the threshold point to aggression or desensitize to certain triggers but my view is that it is always there as others have suggested. When it might re-emerge is unpredictable.

This is why issues like resource aggression need to be taken seriously, particularly by those who temperament test rescue dogs.

[Cosmolo]

Agree with all the posts so far. Just because you can work to raise a threshold to the point that normal practical situations do not elicit the previous problematic aggressive response, does not mean it is cured. Its not just aggression where this is the case either- my fearful dog is the same.

Its interesting too because the overseas trainer i saw who made that comment was not one i agreed with in many other areas but this one statement i found so very true. Just goes to show that you can take something away from everyone, even if you may not agree with other things they choose to do.

[Quickasyoucan]

I am really interested too, as Aidan mentioned, as to what is defined as aggression?

We have had dogs when I grew up who seemed to like pretty much every dog they came across, but there would always be that one dog who would provoke an aggressive response, by that I mean alert, staring, hackles, posturing.

Is that aggression, or is that a response to behaviour shown by the other dog?

I always like to think of using "universal precautions" when dealing with meetings between dogs. Even if you consider your dog not to be aggressive, how do you know whether a certain situation, animal etc might provoke a response in your dog? After all we meet people with whom we just do not get along, it is a fact of life.

I know it is somewhat off topic but I really would like to understand what is defined as aggression.

ETA I don't understand what "civil aggression" means as per the previous topic.

[Diva]

I know it is somewhat off topic but I really would like to understand what is defined as aggression.

Me too. I think agression is a normal part of the behavoural repetoire and it's whether its appropriately triggered and expressed that is the issue. But I wonder if I just use a different definition.

I see a lot of behaviours in my dogs (and others) that to me are aggressive displays, but none actually involve fighting. They mostly involve communciation that sets boundaries without ever having to lay tooth on each other as far as I can see, and most are expressed, received and responded to in seconds.

LOL, just went and read the heeling on the right side thread. Ignore my question, I'm asking about sublties and and a behavioural science def'n of aggression, and you guys are arguing a whole different ball game. Not one I ever want to play, either.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Diva

[Nekhbet]

Any dog that is truely aggressive is never cured - simply managed.

dogs that exhibit aggressive responses to situations can be 'cured' but owners have to remain vigilent in case of relapses back to old habits in some dogs.

just because a dog bares teeth doesnt mean it is aggressive.

[~*Shell*~]

I feel the same - to me, a problem isn't "cured" unless the root of the problem has been addressed. If you have a dog displaying aggression for whatever reason and you address the agression to a point where the dog is displaying other signs of stress in the same situation, while you may have started addressing the problem, it's not until the dog is completely comfortable in that situation that the problem is "cured".

[Aidan]

ETA I don't understand what "civil aggression" means as per the previous topic.

I'm not sure that there is a clear and universally agreed upon definition, but it is used in working circles to describe that the dog will show aggressive behaviour towards people. Again, aggressive behaviour could mean all sorts of things, so the context has to be taken into account, namely that these behaviours are useful for the purposes of the sport or job.

Looking at that, it's not hard to see why we often just say "aggression" but also why this means different things to different people.

[Quickasyoucan]

I feel the same - to me, a problem isn't "cured" unless the root of the problem has been addressed. If you have a dog displaying aggression for whatever reason and you address the agression to a point where the dog is displaying other signs of stress in the same situation, while you may have started addressing the problem, it's not until the dog is completely comfortable in that situation that the problem is "cured".

And the problem is that whilst you might be able to get a dog comfortable in a certain situation, how do you know that another different situation that you have not yet encountered might provoke an aggressive response.

I find that with behaviour whilst outward patterns of execution might be the same, can be somewhat shifting as to triggers.

As an example my own dog used to find cars a trigger for prey drive, I don't remember actively working to supress it, maybe I did (well he wasn't allowed off leash), but gradually it moved to speedboats, then to the infamous skateboards. He is great around skateboards now, but would I trust him if I wasn't there no.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[Quickasyoucan]

Sorry meant to add one more thing, I think aggressive behaviour can also depend strongly on the handler. A fear aggressive dog might show few signs of aggression with an experienced to quote cesar "calm assertive" handler, but with an inexperienced fearful owner it might be a whole different kettle of fish.

So a dog could be rehomed to a person who either naturally or through experience has a personality that causes the dog's aggression to "disappear" is that a cure or a management strategy?

ETA cos I can't spell.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[Aidan]

If a client came to me with a dog who didn't like to be touched about the face, and I sent them off to the vet and an abscess was discovered and treated, and the dog then had no problem with being touched about the face (within reason), I would say that dog no longer growled, snapped or otherwise tried to avoid having his face touched.

In the above example the cause of the aggression is cured. But what can we say about the aggression itself?

[Cosmolo]

Quickasyoucan- thats the point of the statement this trainer made- that a dog is cured when it os no reliant on the presence of a capable handler in order to show the 'correct' behaviour.

[corvus]

I guess what I consider with any dog that has once found, say, growling and snapping bought them space, is that even if you address that so that the dog no longer even feels a need for more space and so stops growling and snapping in that situation, if ever they feel in a different situation that they might need to buy space, there's a good chance they will try growling and snapping again. Just as an example. That's what I mean by assessing risk, or likelihoods. Maybe they are now so confident that they will never feel that way again, but you don't know. Sweet, cotton candy Kivi has never growled or snapped. It doesn't mean he never will, but the way I judge it, the likelihood of him growling or snapping is lower than the likelihood of a dog that has growled or snapped before doing it again.

As far as defining aggression, in this context I think of it as a habitual response, not a one off. I would also consider intent, as to me a dog that is lunging is not necessarily intending to harm, whereas a dog that delivers an uninhibited bite is a whole other kettle of fish. There are so many variations in aggressive behaviour and the possible consequences. I've seen dogs snap with no intention to even make contact and I've seen dogs cause deep gashes. I think they can both be called aggressive behaviours, but whether you feel it's important to 'cure' a dog of air snapping is up to you. I don't think anyone would argue that a dog causing deep gashes needs help immediately, or that repeated aggressive behaviours cannot be safely shrugged off.

[Rusky]

Any dog that is truely aggressive is never cured - simply managed.

dogs that exhibit aggressive responses to situations can be 'cured' but owners have to remain vigilent in case of relapses back to old habits in some dogs.

just because a dog bares teeth doesnt mean it is aggressive.

exactly and a dog which doesn't bare his teeth can be very aggressive they have just learned not to show their teeth and can go off like a rocket with no warning.

the walk on right was a good thread, I was enjoying it

[Quickasyoucan]

I hope Shell comes back cos I wanted to ask her about Zero who she has done great things with and we met her at K9 Force's Aggression Workshop hence me wanting to use her as an example as I don't have first hand knowledge of anyone else's dog.

I wanted to know if she thinks that Zero woudl exhibit aggression if he wasn't with her.

Come back Shell