Feeding Dogs A Vegetarian Diet

[Kissindra]

Bum, I was really interested in learning someting about it, there were some other posters who said they fed vego and that it was possible for a vego diet to be fine for dogs - can those people share some info?

ETA - Cavalier - you mentioned feeding you cavs vego but not your large breed puppy, I'm kind of confused as to what further research you would need to do other than what levels are right for a large breed pup. Presumably to have researched feeding the cavs you know already what vego food replace what ellements of meat/bones? Can you tell me more about this?

Im feeding my kids Veganpet kibble. Google it and it will come up. Has all the nutritional info on the website, and a full analysis done by the Professor of Applied Nutrition at Murdoch University. My dogs preferentially eat the Veganpet over their old meat based kibble.

People have a very closed mind when it comes to vegetarianism, Ive heard all the insults before. It becomes boring.

We have thought very hard about our belief systems, and really it comes down to what you can live with and what lets you sleep at night.

I know my dogs are healthy, happy, content and fulfilled and I am not contributing to the slaughter of millions of animals to get there.

Just wanted to note that the website does not list the full findings and appears to have missing information in what they HAVE summarised. Wish they would publish the whole things so consumers could actually evaluate the product completely. One part of the website says "The final analysis and reporting is currently being finalised by Dr Nick Costas at Murdock University in Perth, West Australia." so I'm not sure if they do actually have a complete set of findings at this stage.

ETA - am making my way through the website trying to find it, if you have a direct link to the full and completed study please post and help me out!

ETA - again, they don't even cover the full details of the basic methadology used for trials, how is anyone supposed to gain a fully and well researched view with so much detail lacking???

Edited November 5, 2009 by Kissindra

[huski]

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I don't feed my dogs "tinned scraps". I feed a complete raw diet. Even when they were on dried food they still never ate tinned food.

[stephcola]

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I don't feed my dogs "tinned scraps". I feed a complete raw diet. Even when they were on dried food they still never ate tinned food.

I am not accusing you (or anyone in particular) of doing so. But it's a fairly common diet for a dog, would you agree?

[Kissindra]

I have a friend who has raised his newfoundland on a vegan diet (he SLOWLY made the transistion when the dog was young) & i would say he is happy & healthy. He uses a combination of Veganpet kibble & home prepared vegies. If someone is willing to put in the effort & money to do it properly then i believe a dog can thrive on this diet. Obviously doing it incorrectly or being lazy about it would be terrible for the dog.

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

well, from all I'm reading so far you HAVE to include synthetic products into a vego diet or it can not be properly balanced. So when you are talking synthetic additives vrs comes directly from nature(such an a BARF diet) it is only fair that one is natural and one isn't, yes? I can see what you mean in relation to tinned or highly processed foods though.

[Diva]

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me.

Plenty of us prioritise making our dogs' diet as natural and species appropriate as we can, it's no joke to us.

[Kissindra]

anyone got any info on how much additives(vitamins/minerals/etc.) are in your standard meat based kibbles? Would be interesting to compair what things go into what kibbles to make them well balanced and what is the same/different.

[Belgianlover]

If you are a vegetarian it is to desex and to feed vegetarian diet are very similar. Both result in an animal dying. I had problem I wanted to rescue a dog but I didn't want say a cow to die to feed the dog... If that makes sense (and yes i know it doesn't to most people)

As I said though I respect everyones opinions just trying to help you understand her opinion makes it easier to reason with them.

Would that not make Birth Control Murder by the same thought process? :D

[Belgianlover]

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I don't feed my dogs "tinned scraps". I feed a complete raw diet. Even when they were on dried food they still never ate tinned food.

I am not accusing you (or anyone in particular) of doing so. But it's a fairly common diet for a dog, would you agree?

To be quite Honest, I don't actually think I've met anyone that feeds their dog tinned food. :D Who buys this stuff?

[huski]

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I don't feed my dogs "tinned scraps". I feed a complete raw diet. Even when they were on dried food they still never ate tinned food.

I am not accusing you (or anyone in particular) of doing so. But it's a fairly common diet for a dog, would you agree?

But that's not what we're talking about. It's not whether or not a vegetarian diet is better than canned food, it's whether or not a vegetarian diet is the best and most appropriate diet you could feed your dog.

[Miranda]

Please explain to be the difference between a dogs GI tract and a humans. They are actually almost identical :D

Yes they are almost identical when compared with a herbivore, but humans are omniverous whereas a dog is first and foremost a carnivore. Although able to deal with small amounts of carbohydrate a dog's GI tract is designed to process flesh and bones. Starting from the head a dog has a long protruding jaw and large canines both of which are designed to grab and hold its prey, the jaw only moves up and down not side to side so dogs are unable to grind foods such as cereal grains or corn. The molars in a dog are used to crack and pulverise bone. Unlike us a dog's saliva contains no enzymes to break down starch, a dog's saliva acts solely as a lubricant to allow it to bolt down its food in large pieces as quickly as possible. The dog's stomach is relatively small because a carnivore eats a nutrient rich diet so only small amounts are required at each meal and their stomach acid is approximately three times stronger than hours having a PH of 1/2 compared to a human's 4/5 thus allowing the dog to to break down bone. The very strong acid also kills most bacteria. Their gut is comparatively much shorter than ours and food passes through much more quickly, this is another safeguard against bacterial infection. However the shorter gut also means that vegetable matter isn't well processed which is why cheap dry foods with lots of cereal fillers can cause digestive disturbances, humans with their much longer gut process carbohydrates much more efficiently.

For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood?

[WreckitWhippet]

Please explain to be the difference between a dogs GI tract and a humans. They are actually almost identical ;)

Yes they are almost identical when compared with a herbivore, but humans are omniverous whereas a dog is first and foremost a carnivore. Although able to deal with small amounts of carbohydrate a dog's GI tract is designed to process flesh and bones. Starting from the head a dog has a long protruding jaw and large canines both of which are designed to grab and hold its prey, the jaw only moves up and down not side to side so dogs are unable to grind foods such as cereal grains or corn. The molars in a dog are used to crack and pulverise bone. Unlike us a dog's saliva contains no enzymes to break down starch, a dog's saliva acts solely as a lubricant to allow it to bolt down its food in large pieces as quickly as possible. The dog's stomach is relatively small because a carnivore eats a nutrient rich diet so only small amounts are required at each meal and their stomach acid is approximately three times stronger than hours having a PH of 1/2 compared to a human's 4/5 thus allowing the dog to to break down bone. The very strong acid also kills most bacteria. Their gut is comparatively much shorter than ours and food passes through much more quickly, this is another safeguard against bacterial infection. However the shorter gut also means that vegetable matter isn't well processed which is why cheap dry foods with lots of cereal fillers can cause digestive disturbances, humans with their much longer gut process carbohydrates much more efficiently.

For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood?

The voice of common sense and reason, as always Miranda

[Diva]

For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood?

Excellent question.

[Cavalier]

I have a friend who has raised his newfoundland on a vegan diet (he SLOWLY made the transistion when the dog was young) & i would say he is happy & healthy. He uses a combination of Veganpet kibble & home prepared vegies. If someone is willing to put in the effort & money to do it properly then i believe a dog can thrive on this diet. Obviously doing it incorrectly or being lazy about it would be terrible for the dog.

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I agree. Also interested to hear he successfully raised a large breed dog on the diet. Thanks for the info.

There are just as many synthetic additives in meat based dog kibble. So Im not sure this argument has much merit.

Some people believe unless you are feeding a BARF or Prey Model diet you are being cruel to your dog. Its a very narrow minded viewpoint. There are many different ways of raising dogs. Just because someone does something diferent doesnt mean it is cruel.

[Cavalier]

Please explain to be the difference between a dogs GI tract and a humans. They are actually almost identical

Yes they are almost identical when compared with a herbivore, but humans are omniverous whereas a dog is first and foremost a carnivore. Although able to deal with small amounts of carbohydrate a dog's GI tract is designed to process flesh and bones. Starting from the head a dog has a long protruding jaw and large canines both of which are designed to grab and hold its prey, the jaw only moves up and down not side to side so dogs are unable to grind foods such as cereal grains or corn. The molars in a dog are used to crack and pulverise bone. Unlike us a dog's saliva contains no enzymes to break down starch, a dog's saliva acts solely as a lubricant to allow it to bolt down its food in large pieces as quickly as possible. The dog's stomach is relatively small because a carnivore eats a nutrient rich diet so only small amounts are required at each meal and their stomach acid is approximately three times stronger than hours having a PH of 1/2 compared to a human's 4/5 thus allowing the dog to to break down bone. The very strong acid also kills most bacteria. Their gut is comparatively much shorter than ours and food passes through much more quickly, this is another safeguard against bacterial infection. However the shorter gut also means that vegetable matter isn't well processed which is why cheap dry foods with lots of cereal fillers can cause digestive disturbances, humans with their much longer gut process carbohydrates much more efficiently.

For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood?

Dogs saliva does contain amylase. The dogs intestine also contains enzymes which break down cellulose.

Both the human and dog stomach has an average pH of 2.

Both the human and dog stomach is relatively small.

Biologically, the dog is an omnivore. The dog has NO physiological obligate requirement for meat (unlike the cat). Every nutrient that dogs need can be obtained from plant sources, or they synthesise themselves.

[Kissindra]

I have a friend who has raised his newfoundland on a vegan diet (he SLOWLY made the transistion when the dog was young) & i would say he is happy & healthy. He uses a combination of Veganpet kibble & home prepared vegies. If someone is willing to put in the effort & money to do it properly then i believe a dog can thrive on this diet. Obviously doing it incorrectly or being lazy about it would be terrible for the dog.

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I agree. Also interested to hear he successfully raised a large breed dog on the diet. Thanks for the info.

There are just as many synthetic additives in meat based dog kibble. So Im not sure this argument has much merit.

Some people believe unless you are feeding a BARF or Prey Model diet you are being cruel to your dog. Its a very narrow minded viewpoint. There are many different ways of raising dogs. Just because someone does something diferent doesnt mean it is cruel.

I haven't said i thought it cruel, but I am struggling to find out how feeding the kibble you do can be done in a well researched way when they don't even give full details of the methadology used in trials, nor have they published complete findings, and one section of the website says findings are not complete yet. I'm prepaired to believe you can do complete research on vego diets but I'm still waiting for someone to help me find the information needed to make a decent research effort.

ETA - knowing both contain synthetic additives is not the same as knowing WHAT additives are in what and how well those individual additives are absorbed or are aided by additional additives.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Kissindra

[Miranda]

Also interested to hear he successfully raised a large breed dog on the diet.

At what age was the dog put onto a vegetarian diet? Why was the dog 'slowly introduced' to the diet, surely if a vegetarian diet is perfectly suitable for a dog it could have been weaned straight onto it with no problems?

[Miranda]

Dogs saliva does contain amylase. The dogs intestine also contains enzymes which break down cellulose.

Both the human and dog stomach has an average pH of 2.

Both the human and dog stomach is relatively small.

Biologically, the dog is an omnivore. The dog has NO physiological obligate requirement for meat (unlike the cat). Every nutrient that dogs need can be obtained from plant sources, or they synthesise themselves.

I disagree with you, you may be a vet, but you appear to know very little about nutrition. If both humans and dogs have the same digestive tract how is it possible that a dog can have a meal of cat or human poo or eat a rotten bone that's been buried for weeks with no ill effect whereas a human would almost certainly become very ill? Can you crack open bones with your teeth and grind them up and swallow them? Would your stomach be able to deal with a whole brisket bone? If your stomach acid is as strong as a dog's then you should be able to digest one with no trouble at all.

BTW I never stated that a dog was an obligate carnivore.

[Souff]

Biologically, the dog is an omnivore.

Yes, I was taught that a dog is an omnivore.

And the other part of the teaching was that omnivores eat both meat and vegies.

However, one here thinks she is a carnivore and spits out anything that looks like vegetable matter.

Souff

[julesluvscavs]

This topic is always very popular when it comes up ! It should be made into a sticky !

I'm a vego, not all the way like a vegan tho. But I have always fed my pets meat (even tho it makes me feel sick sometimes).

My Cavs probably get a lot less meat than my previous 'bigger' working type dogs, but they seem to be ok with how I am feeding them ;)

I probably should give them more bones, but they won't really eat them, so i make up for the chewing aspect with chompy treats that last longer than 5 mins LOL

Edited November 5, 2009 by JulesLuvsCavs

[chuckandsteve]

As a vegetarian if I ate meat now I would become very sick. Any diet change needs to be slow so the body can adjust, I was 8 when I became vegetarian and was slowly switched to it. People who do it too fast become sick.