Ladders For Hind Leg Awareness Training

[Erny]

All right ..... I'm going to let rip with what will be a potentially stupid question. I think I did my head in, in the "vaccination" thread that's currently running, so perhaps I'm not thinking properly, but I just can't seem to see the trees for the forest.

In using something like a ladder to teach hind end awareness, does it make any difference as to the distance the rungs are spaced according to the size of the dog?

I'm reflecting back to my horse-riding days where cavaletti grids were used to assist with jumping training and the natural stride length of the horse was taken into account. Do we need to do the same for dogs?

ETA: Part of the reason for asking is that Berwick Potteries in Officer (VIC) have those decorative bamboo ladders for sale at about $30 and I thought they'd be good to use, as they would be fairly light and I'd easily be able to move it around and use it inside or outside the house (and maybe when I'm done, use them as a towel rack for one of the bathrooms ). But I just want to check about the rung distance thing first.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny

[Diablo]

All right ..... I'm going to let rip with what will be a potentially stupid question. I think I did my head in, in the "vaccination" thread that's currently running, so perhaps I'm not thinking properly, but I just can't seem to see the trees for the forest.

In using something like a ladder to teach hind end awareness, does it make any difference as to the distance the rungs are spaced according to the size of the dog?

I'm reflecting back to my horse-riding days where cavaletti grids were used to assist with jumping training and the natural stride length of the horse was taken into account. Do we need to do the same for dogs?

ETA: Part of the reason for asking is that Berwick Potteries in Officer (VIC) have those decorative bamboo ladders for sale at about $30 and I thought they'd be good to use, as they would be fairly light and I'd easily be able to move it around and use it inside or outside the house (and maybe when I'm done, use them as a towel rack for one of the bathrooms ). But I just want to check about the rung distance thing first.

Ask Nekhbet Erny..........she has experience with this. I tried my GSD with an ordinary ladder layed down walking him backwards over it. After a couple times, he was stepping between the rungs with silly look on his face....."what are doing this for"???.

[PAX]

Hi Erny, and

I so get you and this problem, are we putting to much into this agilty stuff? Agility is doing my head in.

I am lucky enough to be training with Vickie and I am trying not to think too much and just do what Vickie tells me but ARRGGHHH.

I think my dogs already have really great hind end awareness but Vickie set up a jump grid for my dog and it was very difficult for her to master. She has fantastic rear end awareness on perch work, backing up, etc, but a juimp grid really challenged her.

I am an old horsey girl and the jump training with horses seems very irrelevent to all this IMO.

[Mym]

All right ..... I'm going to let rip with what will be a potentially stupid question. I think I did my head in, in the "vaccination" thread that's currently running, so perhaps I'm not thinking properly, but I just can't seem to see the trees for the forest.

In using something like a ladder to teach hind end awareness, does it make any difference as to the distance the rungs are spaced according to the size of the dog?

I'm reflecting back to my horse-riding days where cavaletti grids were used to assist with jumping training and the natural stride length of the horse was taken into account. Do we need to do the same for dogs?

ETA: Part of the reason for asking is that Berwick Potteries in Officer (VIC) have those decorative bamboo ladders for sale at about $30 and I thought they'd be good to use, as they would be fairly light and I'd easily be able to move it around and use it inside or outside the house (and maybe when I'm done, use them as a towel rack for one of the bathrooms ). But I just want to check about the rung distance thing first.

Ask Nekhbet Erny..........she has experience with this. I tried my GSD with an ordinary ladder layed down walking him backwards over it. After a couple times, he was stepping between the rungs with silly look on his face....."what are doing this for"???.

Ah...this is a topic that is SO close to my heart at the moment. I have a collie rough who we have no end of trouble with contacts. So much so that we are now off to a referral for his back with a vet I was told is great. We are training rear end awareness with the perch at home, and we have shaped getting into and out of a box, and now I have two pilates disks as well. What I do notice is that as soon as he walks backwards, he splays his hind legs. He is also pretty overwhelmed on our stairs as well. He walks up them like he is a robot.

I've been looking at 2nd hand ladders on ebay and as an ex-horse rider the whole caviletti thing made me wonder about the distance too.

Anyone else have a big dog that is like this I would love to know how you built control. I feel like once I have got the okay that it isn't structural then I will be onto disks more as he has to use deep muscles and the target area requires him to get his legs under him into a narrow area.

I did beginners agility to build his confidence after he was a badly abused dog....18 months later we are pretty well obsessed!

[JulesP]

Check out Susan Salo's jumping DVDs on Clean Run She is a show jumper that has applied jumping techniques to dogs.

Can't remember anyone talking about ladder size Erny.

[Erny]

Check out Susan Salo's jumping DVDs on Clean Run She is a show jumper that has applied jumping techniques to dogs.

Can't remember anyone talking about ladder size Erny.

Thinking about it with a slightly clearer head this morning, I don't think rung distance would matter so much in this instance as it is only to make the dog connect his/her brain to his/her back legs and think about them and where they are being placed. In fact, if the rungs were a bit 'off' in terms of matching stride, it would potentially be better, I think, as that would make them address the matter of their back leg placement even more.

My boy tends to work his front end more than his back end. He's had everything checked and there is no apparent reason why he wouldn't use his back end. I was also thinking of getting one of those disks. When we play 'tug' he tends to really use his front end and barely uses his back end. This is one of the reasons why I want to create a bit more back end awareness - to switch his mind on to his back end. The other reason is for when we walk backwards in heel. He doesn't step so much as he does little jump-hops and it only takes one or two and his hind end is all over the place. It provides a good laugh though, and I love him for the 'cuteness' factor, but I would like to improve on it.

I will check out Susan Salo's jumping DVD's, JulesP. I'm not planning for jumping him, but it might give me some ideas to work with in my goals. Thanks for the suggestion.

ETA: Part of the not stepping back is to do with head position I think. We do walking back away from me (although he goes crooked after a bit) and I taught him that via lure with treat drawing his head down and in towards his chest. He's increadibly sensitive to my body language though (even to where my eyes are looking - which means I have to be very clever even just to check his back end heel position ) and when he's in the heel position he tries to anticipate me and moves into drop position instead. We'll get there with some more work, I know, but I think the hind-end awareness exercises will help.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny

[JulesP]

Is there a reason that you want to work on his backend?

[Erny]

Is there a reason that you want to work on his backend?

I edited my post, JulesP. I think it answers this question? He also needs to build his back end more - he's got a lot of intense muscle at the front end over his shoulders and I would like to even it out if I can so that muscle support has a bit more equilibrium.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny

[Mym]

You know, I could KICK myself...I did one day of a 3 part workshop last year based on Susan Salo's jumping training. I did it immediately after beginners agility and my dog and I were far and away the least experienced pair at this. It was also my first agility workshop.

I felt like we were holding the group back to be honest and now, a year later, I know that it wasn't the case. I didn't even get the terminology being used. I had little motivation to do the other two days and so didn't go back.

Currently I am doing a three weekly skills workshop where grid work etc is really important and I do think this is improving - but I also know that there are some dogs - like my lad who are 'reserved' in nature and his body control is going to be a large part of having a go at new things.

I love how much I am learning about my dog and honestly, that gives me as much pleasure as anything else, he is happy as a clam when he is jumping, and a scared rabbit on a contact - I sometimes wonder if it is even worth pressing ahead. I would love to get him his B.A.D. but that wasn't the goal when I started. I just wanted a confident dog.

[Tassie]

Check out Susan Salo's jumping DVDs on Clean Run She is a show jumper that has applied jumping techniques to dogs.

Can't remember anyone talking about ladder size Erny.

Thinking about it with a slightly clearer head this morning, I don't think rung distance would matter so much in this instance as it is only to make the dog connect his/her brain to his/her back legs and think about them and where they are being placed. In fact, if the rungs were a bit 'off' in terms of matching stride, it would potentially be better, I think, as that would make them address the matter of their back leg placement even more.

My boy tends to work his front end more than his back end. He's had everything checked and there is no apparent reason why he wouldn't use his back end. I was also thinking of getting one of those disks. When we play 'tug' he tends to really use his front end and barely uses his back end. This is one of the reasons why I want to create a bit more back end awareness - to switch his mind on to his back end. The other reason is for when we walk backwards in heel. He doesn't step so much as he does little jump-hops and it only takes one or two and his hind end is all over the place. It provides a good laugh though, and I love him for the 'cuteness' factor, but I would like to improve on it.

I will check out Susan Salo's jumping DVD's, JulesP. I'm not planning for jumping him, but it might give me some ideas to work with in my goals. Thanks for the suggestion.

ETA: Part of the not stepping back is to do with head position I think. We do walking back away from me (although he goes crooked after a bit) and I taught him that via lure with treat drawing his head down and in towards his chest. He's increadibly sensitive to my body language though (even to where my eyes are looking - which means I have to be very clever even just to check his back end heel position ) and when he's in the heel position he tries to anticipate me and moves into drop position instead. We'll get there with some more work, I know, but I think the hind-end awareness exercises will help.

I really like the Susan Salo approach - makes so much sense. I have the Foundation and the Advanced DVDs - and have just ordered the puppy one. I'm just about to start jumping training with my BC boy, who is 13 months - I've held off because he's quite a big boy.

Yes, Erny - the ladder thing - and similaar exercises - some people do a sort of pick up sticks heap of bars dropped randomly on the ground - is really just to get the puppy/dog realising that he has back legs, and can control them. I do it in foundaton agility, and in puppy classes, and it is funny watching the lights go on, as the pups start being careful about where they place their feet. Of course, it's done at a slow pace, so pup hads time to think. And for a klutzy pup, pup can be rewards for each clean step.

Susan Salo uses jump bumps - like PVC pipes split lengthways - to start with, then low jumps. She uses a ''facilitator' - a smaller bump set an appropriate distance in front of the bigger one - to get the dog to understand that it needs to figure out where to take off - so after the facilitator, the dog will land front legs, and bring back legs underneath to give lift for the jump.

And yes, for the jumping grid exercises, distance is important - although it will be varied to, to help the dog build muscle memory and jumping knowledge for extended and collected jumping.

And mym, in the latest Clean Run mag, there's an article on jumping with straight shouldered dogs - the dog in the pics is a Collie Rough, so the article might be of interest to you.

[Kavik]

I just use a normal ladder at home for rear end awareness. The only thing I have to watch is that Kaos sometimes likes to go too fast

Interestingly Diesel does it the most easily and he is a klutz, though it could be that his stride naturally falls within the rungs whereas the Kelpies who are smaller have to think about it more.

ETA: OK he's not that bad! He can do a nice swing/military finish so does have some rear end awareness.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Kavik

[CavsRcute]

I don't know whether this is the same thing but my girl has HD and the physio gave us an exercise to make her become more aware of her back end.

We use old broom handles placed at different distances apart ie some close together and others wide apart.

We have a run of 5 and do it 5 times.

Works well for her and is certainly helping.

The lady ay obedience is also into TT and made some dog size cavilettis(?sp) out of plumbing supplies which were also good.

[Mym]

Thanks Tassie, I think my instructor has a subscription so will look it up.

[JulesP]

Erny you done any Tellington Touch stuff? I did a couple of horse clinics and I reckon the body wrap might help. A figure 8 of material that goes around the animals chest and hindquarters. It really seemed to help the animal realise that they had a backend. TT also uses poles that aren't level, which I reckon might be better for you than a ladder. I would also be backing the dog in a channel so he can't go crooked.

[Erny]

Erny you done any Tellington Touch stuff? I did a couple of horse clinics and I reckon the body wrap might help. A figure 8 of material that goes around the animals chest and hindquarters. It really seemed to help the animal realise that they had a backend.

Am familiar with the body wrap. I'll keep it in mind but will try the poles on the ground first. Thanks for the tip about poles being unlevel. That would be better as I expect it would keep the mind active and connected to his back legs more. Those wristband things are supposed to do similar, aren't they?

I have a very narrow but very long hallway in my home and I do use that for backing at heel. It doesn't make him 'step' with his back legs any better though.

I agree that a channel would help to keep him straighter backing away from me and it probably would help to teach him what I want from him. Back then, I backed him away because he was pushing my buttons and I did it as a "my space" exercise. It sort of developed into a useful exercise for other things since then, so yes, I'll see what I can do to set up a channel for him. I would first like to get him more into stepping back (rather than hopping/leaping back) before I do that though. But thanks for the reminder :happydance:

[Staff'n'Toller]

Is he swimming regularly?

If you used somewhere like the pool at Woofpurnay with no float coat he'd have no choice but to use his back end to keep himself afloat.

[Erny]

Is he swimming regularly?

TBH, no.

We did swimming down at a dog pool when he was younger. He always hated it, although was getting a bit better. Against my better judgement I followed some advice from one of the employees there. I should have stuck to my own instincts. Anyway, it lead to a bad experience for him and he loathed the swimming pool even more.

I took him to the beach almost every second day for a month or more after that. This was so I could walk him in chest height water. It was for a different reason back then, but I think the chest height wading was probably even better than just swimming. I got him over his dislike for water there and he has since begun to enjoy romping in waters. I wanted to do some water walking exercise in the hydrotank thingies, but at $55 a pop (whether that be for only 5 minutes) it was a bit too expensive for me to afford. It did cross my mind to return to the swimming pool but he's still young and I feel that returning him now could undo the work I'd been doing and achieved down at the beach.

The beach is a 45 minute drive (each way) from me, so it's not easy to get down there, although I do it if it's absolutely what he needs. I did stop going there because of other off-lead dogs with owners who didn't have control that I needed them to have for me to do what I needed with my boy in the name of 'training/behaviour' and also because his health took a bit of a down turn so I needed to concentrate on that for a while. But it's crossed my mind to return there again. My boy would love that. He was on a mission to chase every single seagull off the coast of Australia and with a job left unfinished, I'm sure he'd like to return to it again :p. I'm better off going there in the colder months though as it is a bit quieter then.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Erny

[Vickie]

I am trying not to think too much and just do what Vickie tells me but ARRGGHHH. :p

you are too funny! and you are much better than you think you are! Remember who it is about .

I think my dogs already have really great hind end awareness but Vickie set up a jump grid for my dog and it was very difficult for her to master. She has fantastic rear end awareness on perch work, backing up, etc, but a juimp grid really challenged her.

She does have great rear end awareness, the grid was testing her ability to judge her striding, something most dogs need to practice to get right. A couple more sessions & she will have it totally worked out.

Erny have you tried bands around his back legs? Like hair scrunchies or something similar. I have seen this work really well.

The other exercise I was shown which I really like is setting up a low jump (I know you are not looking for agility performance but this exercise helps feet awareness). What you do is lure the dog to step over (in a walk, not a jump). Any attempt where no legs touch the bar is rewarded & any attempt where the dog touches the bar with any of it's feet is ignored. They tend to work it out really quickly & need to make an effort to pick up their back feet.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Vickie

[ness]

:p PAX - am jealous that you get to train with Vickie - maybe I should come visit .

[Erny]

Erny have you tried bands around his back legs? Like hair scrunchies or something similar. I have seen this work really well.

Thanks Vickie. I did think about this during the evolution of this thread. Didn't think about using scrunchies. Thanks for the tip - it's too easy to not give it a go, so I'll definitely try it.

The other exercise I was shown which I really like is setting up a low jump (I know you are not looking for agility performance but this exercise helps feet awareness). What you do is lure the dog to step over (in a walk, not a jump). Any attempt where no legs touch the bar is rewarded & any attempt where the dog touches the bar with any of it's feet is ignored. They tend to work it out really quickly & need to make an effort to pick up their back feet.

Again, thanks. I'll try doing a bit of this as well.