Recall

[flux]

Hi all,

I am wondering how to teach my rough collie to come back when called. In the house/garden she is very good, if she doesn't come to her name we squeak a favourite toy and then when she does come we call her name and praise her. She's now 14 weeks old and I think she is doing pretty well with this, only hesitating if she knows you are about to shut her away for the night (we've been working on this by sitting with her for a bit with a good chew stick, so it's not such a "come here and get left") and also if something really interesting just happened. When that happends you can see she has obviously become totally distracted but even in this case I am still impressed because this hasn't really happened in a while now. BUT - Outside on a walk off lead - see's another dog/bird/person/sniff she will not come to us when we call her. She has never run off and she always follows us about off the lead, but an interesting sniff and we might turn the other way and call her and she will finish her sniff THEN come. The same problem usually happens on lead too, she normally walks quite well on her lead, but if there's another dog/sniff/person she pulls. We have only let her off about three times now, but I think we might have fallen into a bit of a trap. I feel like she is fast learning "eh so what if I don't come straight away when I'm called?". We've decided to keep her on her lead now, but to be honest I'm not sure when I could be able to let her off and expect a good recall response.

How did you all teach your dogs to come when called off the lead? How did you all know "the time was right" to let them off and feel they would come back when you called? Is this related to a dominance thing, do we need to be more in control on a walk? Or is it a desensitize thing? We were thinking we might go back to our oval where the dogs are and sit quietly and not let her off, i think she would go beserk on the lead but the point I would be trying to make is "No, you calm down and sit with us (because that's what we are doing and what we are asking of you) THEN you can go play" - but is this too much to ask of a puppy, I kind of feel it is a bit - if that's the case what are some of your opinions on what to reccomend?

Many thanks, I would be happy to hear a variety of opinions and methods. ;)

Oh! Finally, We tried (albeit VERY briefly) to tie a long rope around her collar and let her off, thinking we could call her, then reel her back in if she hesistated to confirm she must come back - but it was just chaos. With other dogs <or insert other exciting situation here> she just was madly running about and practically hanging herself on the rope. I felt she didn't actually get what was going on at all, so i abandoned it. Too soon? should of perservered?

Thanks!

[flux]

I'm really sorry this -

"and also if something really interesting just happened. When that happends you can see she has obviously become totally distracted but even in this case I am still impressed because this hasn't really happened in a while now"

- was garbled nonsense. What I meant to say was that she will also hesitate to come when called a bit in the garden if something really exciting/distracting is going on, but she will usually come back 98% of the time and I think it's getting better and better.

Very sorry, I should of re-read my post a few more times!!!

[corvus]

Sounds like you are doing all the right things.

It takes a long time to train a really reliable recall. For Kivi, it took about a year. I don't think it will take that long for Erik, as he is naturally more interested in us and what we are doing than Kivi was, but I think you've got to expect it to take a long time. This is because you will have setbacks. She will leave that puppy stage where she just wants to be close to you all the time and start to explore the world and find new and exciting things to do. And also, a lot of it is conditioning, and it takes a lot of work to condition something so that it's so strong your dog will automatically come whenever you call.

We have Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall dvd and use her method. It's very good. ;) The emphasis is on paying very big whenever they come when called, never call them unless you are sure they will come, and never call more than once.

I don't let Kivi off leash until I'm confident he will not just come when I recall him, but look my way when I say his name. You can test these things on leash, especially if you have a long line. Until I'm confident he's not going to run off, he trailed a 5 or 10m long line. Long lines are good for your own confidence as you know you only have to get within 5 or 10 metres of your dog to catch them again. The only thing is, long lines come with their own dangers. You have to keep an eye on them so they don't get caught on things, get wrapped around people's ankles, or picked up by other dogs.

[Erny]

she will also hesitate to come when called a bit in the garden if something really exciting/distracting is going on, but she will usually come back 98% of the time and I think it's getting better and better.

She is so young. If you aren't 100% certain she'll come back on a recall, don't recall her. If she's interested in something else, do something to distract her from it and when she looks to you (because of the distraction) do your absolute darndest to be the "something else" that she'll enjoy showing an interest in.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but every time you recall her and she doesn't come back, you are teaching her that there are sometimes she doesn't have to come back. As she becomes older she is going to become more independent of you, so your work for a flawed recall response that you are getting now (even though it is only 2% flawed) will become even more difficult to remedy later.

It is great that you are putting in time for training now and I think your obvious keen interest in getting it right is to be commended . But work on teaching her that a command means every time and your job later will be easier than it otherwise might be.

ETA: I see that you've noted and responded to the fact that she is hesitating in her recall response and have already looked to the future on that. My turn to apologise as I should have read your opening post more thoroughly :D . It is good that you have decided to have her on lead until you are confident of her returns. Work up from a normal length lead, to a long-line (please ....... NOT a retractable lead) for distance work. When she's showing the responses to indicate that she's reliable in her recalls on the long-line, then you can progress to the step of letting the long-line drag on the ground. But it is not the leads that do the work of course, it is what you do in your training methods that will create the responses you are looking for. Pack structure (leadership) also has a bearing on your dog listening to you, so make that side of things habitual now and your pup will grow up understanding that you're 'it' and always will be. Make your rewards worthwhile for recall response and don't set your pup/dog up to fail. IOW, check the environment - is it more distracting than what she's used to? If so, take some steps back in training (eg back on to the long-line) and work some easy recalls with big rewards.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Erny

[flux]

Thank you both for your excellent advice. I'm going to step up on calling her to come and I'm going to make a much longer rope for her too. Thanks again!

Faye

[Erny]

I'm going to step up on calling her to come and I'm going to make a much longer rope for her too. Thanks again!

Faye

Set her up to win, Flux. Every time. And make it worth her while when she does come back (which will be every time because she has been set up to win). Rewards of treats, game of tug, throw ball, you being excited and obviously very happy with her at being soooooo clever . If you don't set her up to fail then she won't learn to fail.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Erny

[kiesha09]

She's now 14 weeks old and I think she is doing pretty well with this, only hesitating if she knows you are about to shut her away for the night

You have already been given some great advice Flux. The only thing I would add is that I wouldn't call her to come for anything she deems unpleasant eg to be shut away for the night, a bath, to have nails clipped, to be told off, to go home from the park etc. while you are in the teaching stage. It would be better to go and get her without saying anything.

The reason for this is because you want coming to you to be the BEST thing in the world. So whilst she's learning I would be using her favourite treats (eg roast chicken) and do lots of rewarding and praise. Anything unpleasant could be seen as a punishment and you don't want that!

While I think of it another thing I think is really important is that when on the long line or off lead at the park call her to you all the time, treat and then let her go play again. Don't just call her to go home or she'll just work out that coming to you at the park means the end of the fun. I actually go and get both my dogs to go home from the park... I don't want to dilute recall.

[Serket]

While I think of it another thing I think is really important is that when on the long line or off lead at the park call her to you all the time, treat and then let her go play again. Don't just call her to go home or she'll just work out that coming to you at the park means the end of the fun. I actually go and get both my dogs to go home from the park... I don't want to dilute recall.

I've heard a lot of people say this, and so I'm not questioning you in particular but more of a general question - won't you then have a situation where the dog sees you coming and runs because they know you're coming to get them to take them home/give them a bath/trim their nails/etc?

[corvus]

With my dogs I just put them back on leash when they are hanging around nearby, so I don't really go towards them or call them. The only cue that I'm about to put them back on leash is that I have it in my hand. I don't think it would matter, anyway, as I reward them so many times in one outing for checking in without putting them on leash that they are pretty happy to come and spend time with me. If I put them back on leash one time out of every, say, ten times I give treats for checking in, then a) the reward history is high enough to overcome the odd negative and b) they are so used to coming and getting a treat that going back on leash isn't a disappointment for them anyway. They get lots of treats when they are on leash as well. They like having their leashes on. My old dog was so keen on getting her leash put on that I used to click the leash clip as a recall. She would come flying from wherever when she hear the chink of her leash. Until she went deaf... :D

[kiesha09]

With my dogs I just put them back on leash when they are hanging around nearby, so I don't really go towards them or call them. The only cue that I'm about to put them back on leash is that I have it in my hand. I don't think it would matter, anyway, as I reward them so many times in one outing for checking in without putting them on leash that they are pretty happy to come and spend time with me. If I put them back on leash one time out of every, say, ten times I give treats for checking in, then a) the reward history is high enough to overcome the odd negative and b) they are so used to coming and getting a treat that going back on leash isn't a disappointment for them anyway. They get lots of treats when they are on leash as well. They like having their leashes on. My old dog was so keen on getting her leash put on that I used to click the leash clip as a recall. She would come flying from wherever when she hear the chink of her leash. Until she went deaf...

Exactly the answer I was going to give. My dogs have now been so heavily reinforced for just being around me that some times I have trouble getting them to go off and play at the park. As puppies I would also often go to them clip on the lead walk a few steps heeling and then let them off again (what better reward for good heel work is there than being let off to play with other dogs at the park ). So me going to them and having the lead put on also never meant we were always going home. Just like at home I used to put the lead on then take it off multiple times a day so that the leash didn't necessarily mean we were going anywhere and hence no use getting all crazy excited Me thinks I'm a mean mummy

Lastly I'd say that the number of times I go to my dogs and they get something great so greatly outweighs something bad happening that its not an issue.

Edited November 6, 2009 by kiesha09