Vaccines....

[oakway]

Give her an e-mail. She will only to happy to oblige.

Jean Dodds

E-mail Address(es):

[email protected]

[Staranais]

Give her an e-mail. She will only to happy to oblige.

I already have. :D

[Erny]

She's away until 4th November, Star, so her response might be a bit delayed.

and you should be studying!! Get to it !! :D

Edited November 1, 2009 by Erny

[stormie]

It is a shame that we breeders & pet owners dont have statistics for you on websites & books, perhaps you can ask the expert in the field to get a list of breeds & some sort of stats...Australia is very poor in such things as we have no experts here. But email Dr Jean Dodds, she visited Australia last year & educated many folk, sadly, I only know of ONE Vet that turned up at the Sydney lecture, and they were very impressed & enlightened afterward. What a shame that all Vet clinics & universities werent represented to learn about immunity.

Dr Dodds was brought to Australia by the Golden Retriever folk and gave presentations at their Nationals.

My friend and I drove from Canberra to Sydney to see her presentation. So did a few dog breeders. Her Sydney audience was mostly dog sports folk and breeders.

Yes, it was a pity there weren't more vets there. Frankly I think a lot of vets need to do some rethinking about their "desex everything at 6 months and jab them once a year for life" standard approach to dog husbandry. Don't even get me started on how many vets allow their clients to carry far too much weight without saying a word to owners. :D

My vet, although very knowledgeable, was anti-titre until recently. She now does them. She said she's concerned that a lot of her pet dog owners would balk at the potential cost of titreing and then having to vaccinate or that they'll not come in for annual check ups. I think her concerns are justified.

Maybe if the vets got told about it, maybe more would have been interested? Our clinic never received any information about her coming. The only reason my vet and I went, was from hearing about it through DOL and me telling him about it.

[Staranais]

She's away until 4th November, Star, so her response might be a bit delayed.

and you should be studying!! Get to it !!

Surely posting in the health forum counts as study.... :D

OK, maybe not!

[Jed]

Maybe if the vets got told about it, maybe more would have been interested? Our clinic never received any information about her coming. The only reason my vet and I went, was from hearing about it through DOL and me telling him about it.

Almost EVERY vet practising south of Mackay in Queensland was invited to the Jean Dodds seminar in Brisbane, the ones in Brisbane by phone and letter, the ones further away, by letter. The vet school was advised too. Something like 600+ invitations were issued.

If you are in Qld, your clinic was advised, via a letter to the clinic, and vets practising in the clinic were individually invited.

The responses to the telephone invitations were - um - illuminating. Ranged from never heard of it, to yes we know, but they wont bring their pets in every year, so we will lose money so we wont do it, to a couple that seemed to think I was suggesting they attend a course in Bestiality 101.

I can understand, if vets weren't aware of the AVA discussion a few years previous about changing the vac. protocols, they might not have been interested.

But the response was deafening in its lack of response.

However, Jean Dodds said that was what would happen.

[Cavalier]

And I never ask pet owners to believe me - I ask them to check out the research. Most vets aren't even aware of the research, or, like you, discount it because it doesn't agree with their particular tenets, or is not in line with what they were taught at university. But things are changing. In 10 years, these protocols will be accepted as the norm.

And, yes, we will have to disagree.

I do not disregard the research, but I am yet to see any reputable research paper which shows that dogs remain immune for life after only a puppy course.

I've seen a few:

Showing protection lasting at least 3 years after puppy course in the majority of animals, challenge and serological studies:

* Gill, M., Srinivas, J., Morozov, I., Smith, J., Anderson, C., Glover, S., Champ, D., & Chu, H.-J. (2004). Three-year duration of immunity for canine distemper, adenovirus, and parvovirus after vaccination with a multivalent canine vaccine. The International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine, 2, 227 - 234.

32 pups challenged 3 years after their puppy C3 course from Fort Dodge.

* Mouzin, D. E., Lorenzen, M. J., D, H. J., & King, V. L. (2004). Duration of serological response to five viral antigens in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, 224, 55 - 60.

Three core antibodies last longer than 3 years in 98% of the dogs tested.

Showing protection lasting 3 - 7 years in the majority of animals, serology study:

* Twark, L., & Dodds, W. K. (2000). Clinical use of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association 217, 1021 - 1024.

95% of the 1441 dogs surveyed had protective parvo titres, and 98% had protective CDV titres. A large proportion of the dogs had recieved their last adult vaccine between 3 and 7 years before.

It's not conclusive, of course, not at all. Unfortunately none of the study groups titred directly after vaccination, so we have no idea if the dogs that weren't immune when challenged with the virus at the end of the protocol never seroconverted, or whether they were once immune but lost their immunity over time. The puppy challenge studies also don't challenge any of the pups one year after vaccination, so we have no idea whether the vaccines were as protective after 3 year as they would have been at 1 year post vaccination, which could be very relevant information in a high parvo area. And nothing I've found tested dogs more than 7 years after vaccination. But some reasonable research on that topic is out there.

What I haven't seen is any good evidence proving that vaccines cause cancer, allergies, or thyroid issues in dogs, although the hypothetical link between these problems and vaccination is often quoted as if they are fact. Whenever I ask, people either link me to an unreferenced website, they say "Jean Dodds says so!" but can't give link to where she has published any evidence, quote me a study that doesn't exist or doesn't prove anything at all, or are just too busy to find me the references. But everyone assures me that the evidence is out there if I just keep looking. Kind of like the X-files. :D

These studies did not show that the dogs were immune for life - just 3-7 years. As a professional I cannot go around telling my clients that they never need to vaccinate their dogs again after 15 months, when there is no scientific evidence to support this method, and when no vaccines are registered for use in this way. It would leave us open legally on a massive scale.

There is no evidence that vaccines cause any of these diseases, that why you cant find any Yes Dr Jean Dodds may be an "expert" however the rest of us, as professionals have every right to question her research and ask for evidence.

The fact is a lot of her "research" does not have any evidence - just her opinion. Blind faith is not what we as vets should be making our decisions on. Vets did not go to her conference because she is not particularly well respected as a scientist because of the way she preaches "fact" to dog breeders when it is really just her own opinion, with nothing to back it up.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Cavalier

[stormie]

Maybe if the vets got told about it, maybe more would have been interested? Our clinic never received any information about her coming. The only reason my vet and I went, was from hearing about it through DOL and me telling him about it.

Almost EVERY vet practising south of Mackay in Queensland was invited to the Jean Dodds seminar in Brisbane, the ones in Brisbane by phone and letter, the ones further away, by letter. The vet school was advised too. Something like 600+ invitations were issued.

If you are in Qld, your clinic was advised, via a letter to the clinic, and vets practising in the clinic were individually invited.

The responses to the telephone invitations were - um - illuminating. Ranged from never heard of it, to yes we know, but they wont bring their pets in every year, so we will lose money so we wont do it, to a couple that seemed to think I was suggesting they attend a course in Bestiality 101.

I can understand, if vets weren't aware of the AVA discussion a few years previous about changing the vac. protocols, they might not have been interested.

But the response was deafening in its lack of response.

However, Jean Dodds said that was what would happen.

I'm in Sydney, so no, our clinic wasn't advised. In saying that though, my vet recognised a few vets at the Sydney talk, so there were some there...

[Jed]

Cavalier

These studies did not show that the dogs were immune for life - just 3-7 years. As a professional I cannot go around telling my clients that they never need to vaccinate their dogs again after 15 months, when there is no scientific evidence to support this method, and when no vaccines are registered for use in this way. It would leave us open legally on a massive scale.

I understand your legal liability as a vet.

The WSAVA Fact Sheets advise that duration of immunityafter vaccination is 7 years or longer, based on challenge and serological studies.

I posted that earlier.

The WSAVA didn't just pull that out of their arse because they wanted something to do, they did studies. The studies are out there, with proper references, for anyone to find.

Professor Ronald Schulz says that if a puppy is immunized with the 3 MLV vaccines, there is every reason to believe the animal is vaccinated for life. I haven't seen any studies on this but he is an expert in immunology. I am sure there are proper studies to back his assertions.

It's worth googling him too, for anyone who hasn't.

Some of us didn't decide not to vaccinate so we could save a quid, or so we could spread parvo willy nilly around the dog population. We made an informed choice based on the best information available, for the welfare of our dogs, and for the future generations of dogs we are breeding. And we were happy to stand against "current" veterinary information (fuelled by drug company advertising) for the sake of our dogs. Now the tide has turned, and the information we acted on 10 or 15 years ago is now widely disseminated,

I don't care whether you can find proper studies or not, they are there. I don't have to convince you, but I want pet owners to know what they are doing when they vaccinate their dogs. And you should too.

Incidentally, where are the scientific studies showing that dogs need to be vaccinated annually? I've never been able to find any.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Jed

[whippets]

I wouldn't even consider research by a drug company that manufactures the product. I would only read independent, unbiased studies.

[Staranais]

I wouldn't even consider research by a drug company that manufactures the product. I would only read independent, unbiased studies.

Most drug companies don't publish their in-house research, Whippet, so you couldn't consider it even if you wanted to. ;)

[whippets]

Rubbish. The FDA wouldn't even approve the drug if the research was kept behind closed doors.

[Staranais]

Rubbish. The FDA wouldn't even approve the drug if the research was kept behind closed doors.

Uh huh, right. So when all those veterinary drug companies say the research is "on file", that actually means they've published it?

Plus veterinary vaccines don't need to be approved by the FDA, as it doesn't regulate veterinary vaccines.

[alanglen]

Just a quick congrats to the vets on here who are standing up for our profession, I've got tired of the ear bashing about drug companies and all of these so called profits that we receive! After a lot of training and research, we do what we think is right and justified.

As for the J.Dodd's seminar, I would have gone if I had known about it, mostly to meet this amazing person who gets quoted all over the place despite a fair portion of the information being opinion rather than fact.

[WreckitWhippet]

You're right about that, she is amazing ;)

[Janba]

As for Proheart - which I also do about 100 injections a week, I have NEVER seen a reaction tot his injection. We would know if any dog/cat had a reaction as we are the closest vet for 400kms and we have fantastic clients who are very attentive to their pets.

I have a dog that had a massive allergic reaction to the prohearft injection. He and my dally bitch were the last appointment at the vets and both had the injection and were put straight into the car for the drive home. By the time I had got home his throat was swelling as was his face etc. I rang the vet back but it was shut so called the principal vet from the practice on his mobile - he was at a meeting at the AVA so this was discussed there as he later told me. The dog was given oral antihistamines and driven to an emergency vet a few suburbs away were he had emergency treatment.

The timing and were the dog was there was NOTHING else that could have caused this reaction but the Proheart injection. My dally who had the injection at the same time had a large swelling at the injection site that took 12 months to resolve. It may have been a bad batch and it was reported. The dogs were also only given the proheart injection at that visit nothing else.

[stormie]

Maybe its time to just agree to disagree?

[Erny]

Just a quick congrats to the vets on here who are standing up for our profession ....

Following this thread, I don't see that the "Veterinary Profession" is being run down. There are some really great Vets out there and I'm lucky enough to have found one of them, albeit that he is a 2 hour drive from me. He does some excellent work; has helped many dogs; and very much cares for the welfare of the animals that passes through his practice. In fact, I don't know where I'd be if not for the fact that he is a member of the Veterinary Profession.

[poodlefan]

Just a quick congrats to the vets on here who are standing up for our profession ....

The "veterinary profession" is a bunch of individuals with varying degrees of knowledge, skill and dedication. It pays to be an informed client with vets, just as it does with ank other profession.

There are some brilliant vets out there and their praises are sung here by grateful happy clients. Then there are the other kind..

Like anyone else; rescues, breeders or whoever, vets are often judged by the worst of their number, not their best. Try not to take it personally.

At least you're not a lawyer! ;)

[WreckitWhippet]

I love my vet too, she's awesome and we work together as a team when it comes to decisions about their routine health care and any treatment required.