Vaccines....

[Cavalier]

No they were not titre tested - and that was my point to Cavandra. How can you be certain your dogs have protection, ESPECIALLY when you are breeding pups, when you dont get any testing done and dont revaccinate???

The thing is, whilst Titre testing is a good tool/measure (ie if it shows positive for immunity levels), just because it shows negative doesn't mean the animal doesn't have protection. This is where I believe the discussion would move on to the topic of "cell memory".

The problem is that we are all so frightened of our dogs NOT having immunity that we keep bombarding their systems with the vaccinations which doesn't help their immune system and affects them for so many other things that dogs are suffering (more now days than ever before), cancer being just one of them, but also allergies, thyroid issues, etc. etc. Over-vaccinating can have the affect of actually WEAKENING the system, as opposed to bolstering it as many would like to believe.

There will, IMO, never be a guarantee to anything, but I think we need to put at least some trust to puppy vaccinations promoting immunity (and titre testing can assist, in some or many instances). It is a weigh of balance and more and more research is coming to the fore of how we are making our dogs sick by trying to keep them healthy.

In one of the very many discussion on this subject even just here on DOL, I have read of not only one person who has had pups that WERE vaccinated, contract parvo, whereas other of her dogs who were NOT vaccinated (I'm talking boosters, here) did NOT contract it. So to suggest that dogs contracted parvo because regular (yearly or otherwise) boosters were not administered is, I think, only supposition.

Yes - however if you dont know if the bitch has any circulating antibodies how can you know if she has enough in her colostrum for the pups? Memory cells are NOT transferred through the colostrum.

Can you please link me to a reputable study that suggests vaccines cause allergies, thyroid problems and cancer?

IMHO the reason why we are seeing "more" of these diseases is because diagnostics have improved, and people are more willing to spend money of their pets in this day and age - therefore more diagnoses occur.

In not denying that vaccines are not without some negative effects - however I believe there has been a lot of unproven scare mongering in the dog community regarding vaccination. If this continues and the level of vaccination in the general dog community drops below a certain level, we are going to start seeing more and more parvovirus cases (as we already are) and will see the remergence of distemper and hepatitis in areas where it has not been seen for decades.

[Staranais]

Can you please link me to a reputable study that suggests vaccines cause allergies, thyroid problems and cancer?

We're talking dogs, right? Because I can link you some good ones for cats and vaccine site cancers. You've probably already seen them, though.

I too would like to see any good studies linking "over" vaccination to allergies in dogs, though. I haven't found any myself, although I've heard lots of people claim a link between allergies and vaccination.

There was one I saw a while back that linked production of thyroid autoantibodies to rabies vaccination in beagle pups, however I don't believe anyone has been able to demonstrate any clinical signs related to the presence of those antibodies.

I agree there is a lot of scaremongering about vaccination.

[Erny]

Yes - however if you dont know if the bitch has any circulating antibodies how can you know if she has enough in her colostrum for the pups? Memory cells are NOT transferred through the colostrum.

Sorry Cavalier - I wasn't making reference to pregnant bitches.

Can you please link me to a reputable study that suggests vaccines cause allergies, thyroid problems and cancer?

Much of what I have learnt is through general reading and talking with what I regard as reliable sources. Eg. Dr Jean Dodds and others. One part that I have pulled up (but not the only) :

From Dr. Jean Dodds

"Furthermore, the increasing current problems with allergic and immunological diseases has been linked to the introduction of MLV vaccines more than 20

years ago. While other environmental factors no doubt have a contributing role, the introduction of these vaccine antigens and their environmental shedding may provide the final insult that exceeds the immunological tolerance threshold of some individuals in the pet population."

IMHO the reason why we are seeing "more" of these diseases is because diagnostics have improved, and people are more willing to spend money of their pets in this day and age - therefore more diagnoses occur.

Yes - I've heard that 'argument' before and even pondered on it myself as having viability, and it still does, to a reasonable degree. But in all truth, our dogs in my younger days just didn't seem to develop the lumps and bumps, illnesses and lameness that they do now. Sure - my knowledge of these dogs back then is only a small cross section by comparison to the majority, but given it was back in the days where it was more rare for a family to NOT have a dog than to have one, and when the dogs were free roaming (so we got to know them fairly well), I think it is a reasonable observation.

In not denying that vaccines are not without some negative effects - however I believe there has been a lot of unproven scare mongering in the dog community regarding vaccination. If this continues and the level of vaccination in the general dog community drops below a certain level, we are going to start seeing more and more parvovirus cases (as we already are) and will see the remergence of distemper and hepatitis in areas where it has not been seen for decades.

Sure ..... but don't you agree that (using Dr Dodd's word) the affects of "insulting" the immune system needs to be taken more into account than it ever has been before?

[Staranais]

"Furthermore, the increasing current problems with allergic and immunological diseases has been linked to the introduction of MLV vaccines more than 20

years ago. While other environmental factors no doubt have a contributing role, the introduction of these vaccine antigens and their environmental shedding may provide the final insult that exceeds the immunological tolerance threshold of some individuals in the pet population."

I'm not Cavalier, but that's an interesting opinion, since I've been taught that MLV vaccines tend to have less observable side effects than killed vaccines. Killed vaccines generally need to have adjuvants (various chemical nasties) mixed in with them to make them work, often causing local reactions, and often need to be given more frequently than MLV vaccines, since they don't work nearly as well.

[Erny]

I don't have the veterinary scientific background knowledge to argue (ie offer opinion) on that one way or the other, Star. I know that Jean is a wonderful person in that she always seems very happy to answer questions, so I'm sure she would have no objections to what she's written being queried, if you felt the urge to contact her?

Edited October 31, 2009 by Erny

[Staranais]

I don't have the veterinary scientific background knowledge to argue (ie offer opinion) on that one way or the other, Star.

Just throwing it out there as extra info.

Edited to add: I'm pretty sure the latest WSAVA dog and cat vaccine recommendations paper recommends MLV over killed vaccines too, though.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Staranais

[Erny]

Cheers!

Always good to have a question mark chucked in - makes one think with a bit more complexity . Although I admit, it sometimes does my head in!

ETA (in response to your ETA) .... I'd love it if you would be inclined to query it with Dr Dodds. My problem is that I'm not so good at talking the language that those who have had the veterinary science background can.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Erny

[Staranais]

ETA (in response to your ETA) .... I'd love it if you would be inclined to query it with Dr Dodds. My problem is that I'm not so good at talking the language that those who have had the veterinary science background can.

Happy to, if you send me her email address, and the web link to that whole statement you quoted her from.

But I suspect she'll just say it's a hypothesis at the moment? As in, they've noticed more vaccine reactions occuring since the MLV have been introduced, but can't actually prove any connection between the two?

Personally I think Cavalier is on to something, in that we just notice vaccine reactions more these days since we pay more attention to our dogs - they are more likely to live in the house with us, they are more likely to sleep on the bed with us, they get annual vet check ups, we do more diagnostic testing when they get ill, etc. But it would be pretty interesting if Dr Dodds had information to the contrary.

[Erny]

Happy to, if you send me her email address, and the web link to that whole statement you quoted her from.

Sure .... will PM the email addy to you. The link to the whole statement was in the post I made .

Cheers

Erny

[Staranais]

Oh oops, sorry, didn't read it properly. Will get onto it straight after exams!

[Erny]

Oh oops, sorry, didn't read it properly. Will get onto it straight after exams!

Oooh, yes! It would be exam time for you. Good luck, and stop letting DOL interrupt your studies!!

But please - if/when you do read the literature and if/when you do email her, I'd be interested to hear the results of your discussions ............. in layperson's terms if that's ok, for us plebs who haven't undergone the scientific language learning that you guys have .

Cheers, and good luck, Staranais. Hope your studies and your results go well .

[joelle]

thanks for all the debates / opinions etc guys. Way above my head at the moment but I will go back and read all replies later. Some very interesting discussions Edited October 31, 2009 by joelle

[Erny]

thanks for all the info guys. Way above my head at the moment but I will go back and read all replies later. Some very interesting discussions

Sorry Joelle. It does get complicated, doesn't it? And if it makes you feel any better, it is often way above my head too .

[Pete.the.dog]

Oooh, yes! It would be exam time for you. Good luck, and stop letting DOL interrupt your studies!!

haha if only it were that simple... DOL is the best procrastination tool going around!

[Cavandra]

No they were not titre tested - and that was my point to Cavandra. How can you be certain your dogs have protection, ESPECIALLY when you are breeding pups, when you dont get any testing done and dont revaccinate???

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses), many folk believe if their dog had a "needle" then its immune ........I think that many of the adult dog parvo cases you have seen would more than likely come under this banner, of course this can not be proved nor disproved .......

The only cases of parvo I have ever seen have been in unvaccinated pups or those given vaccines too early at age 6 weeks.

I dont vaccinate myself against hepatitis, measles, colds etc each year, why would I do my dogs

Once my dogs have memory cells they have them for life, these can not be measured by any test! A titer can measure if there has been any response recently in the dog, ie that they have either recently been vaccinated or they have been actually exposed to the diseases tested for.......if the dog has not had exposure the titer should be very low if at all.

Adverse reactions are rarely documented & are usually swept under the carpet, it would be quite easy in reality if all dogs had reactions instantly to be able to say "yes vaccines are harmful", however the real harm comes much later, as the experts in the field will say thyroid dysfunction is one of the great symptoms, cancers, skin conditions etc......

It is like the annual heartworm shot, I cant count how many dogs have seizures due to this.......because the adverse reaction doesnt happen within a week of the shot necessarily then of course the seizures are not related to the shot, yet the most common senario tends to be 3 months after! Detox these dogs through homeopathic vets & "miracles" often occur! Again are these things reported & documented?????? No! Proheart 6 was banned overseas, and now its back in use with the only difference being the client has to sign a form understanding their dog might have adverse reactions or die.......Proheart 12 is happily administered here!

There are so many "coincidences" with the annual vaccines being pushed on the public to the introduction of healthy pedigree dogs becoming prone to cancer , leukaemia, thyroid etc etc etc........Same as the coincidences" of perfectly healthy , normal human babies becoming autistic after vaccination.

My dogs one by one contracted canine cough at one time....the annually vaccinated C5 Staffy next door gave it to them, this dog hacked its lungs up for 2 weeks & went to the Vet twice for treatment.....My dogs coughed lightly & slightly for 2-3 days, and my oldest dog (therefore the most unvaccinated one LOL) didnt get it at all! My dogs had garlic crushed in mannuka honey & Ester C tablets as their treatment.

In fairness I must also add that my dogs are raw fed, so again their immune systems are functioning at full speed

[Cavalier]

No they were not titre tested - and that was my point to Cavandra. How can you be certain your dogs have protection, ESPECIALLY when you are breeding pups, when you dont get any testing done and dont revaccinate???

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses), many folk believe if their dog had a "needle" then its immune ........I think that many of the adult dog parvo cases you have seen would more than likely come under this banner, of course this can not be proved nor disproved .......

The only cases of parvo I have ever seen have been in unvaccinated pups or those given vaccines too early at age 6 weeks.

I dont vaccinate myself against hepatitis, measles, colds etc each year, why would I do my dogs

Once my dogs have memory cells they have them for life, these can not be measured by any test! A titer can measure if there has been any response recently in the dog, ie that they have either recently been vaccinated or they have been actually exposed to the diseases tested for.......if the dog has not had exposure the titer should be very low if at all.

Adverse reactions are rarely documented & are usually swept under the carpet, it would be quite easy in reality if all dogs had reactions instantly to be able to say "yes vaccines are harmful", however the real harm comes much later, as the experts in the field will say thyroid dysfunction is one of the great symptoms, cancers, skin conditions etc......

It is like the annual heartworm shot, I cant count how many dogs have seizures due to this.......because the adverse reaction doesnt happen within a week of the shot necessarily then of course the seizures are not related to the shot, yet the most common senario tends to be 3 months after! Detox these dogs through homeopathic vets & "miracles" often occur! Again are these things reported & documented?????? No! Proheart 6 was banned overseas, and now its back in use with the only difference being the client has to sign a form understanding their dog might have adverse reactions or die.......Proheart 12 is happily administered here!

There are so many "coincidences" with the annual vaccines being pushed on the public to the introduction of healthy pedigree dogs becoming prone to cancer , leukaemia, thyroid etc etc etc........Same as the coincidences" of perfectly healthy , normal human babies becoming autistic after vaccination.

My dogs one by one contracted canine cough at one time....the annually vaccinated C5 Staffy next door gave it to them, this dog hacked its lungs up for 2 weeks & went to the Vet twice for treatment.....My dogs coughed lightly & slightly for 2-3 days, and my oldest dog (therefore the most unvaccinated one LOL) didnt get it at all! My dogs had garlic crushed in mannuka honey & Ester C tablets as their treatment.

In fairness I must also add that my dogs are raw fed, so again their immune systems are functioning at full speed

You didnt answer my question.... how do you know if your pups are getting antibodies in the colostrum?? If the bitch does not have any circulating antibodies, they cannot give the pups any either. B cells (memory cells) cannot be transferred through the colostrum.

Not testing your bitches titres prior to mating is leaving the resulting pups very vulnerable to disease.

[OSoSwift]

My puppies have all come with initial vaccination at usually 6 weeks. Then I do a Protec C5 (intranasal BB) at 12 weeks. A C5 at 15months. Now I will be doing the 3 yearly C3 and I am undecided about the PI2 and BB. I am leaning towards yearly. With My Dobes I always got a Parvo booster at 16 weeks and another at around 8 months, then yearly as was the protocol then.

Kennel cough went through local dogs in a big way two years ago. My pup was not vaccinated against it at that stage and got it moderately. My aged dog (unvaccinated due to reaction for about 5 years) got it quite badly and needed antibiotics. My friend had 5 dogs including 2 hand raised babies that were two weeks old. All her dogs got it but the two that had current kennel cough vaccinations were not very bad at all. The unvaccinated ones got very sick and the handraised babies came very close to not making it.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Rommi n Lewis

[Staranais]

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses),

How many dogs are "many"? And can you please link to the studies about non-response to vaccines being associated with being a breed predisposed to immune disorders.

The only relevant studies I've seen showed that the vast majority of dogs seroconverted after vaccination for parvo.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Staranais

[Cavandra]

You didnt answer my question.... how do you know if your pups are getting antibodies in the colostrum?? If the bitch does not have any circulating antibodies, they cannot give the pups any either. B cells (memory cells) cannot be transferred through the colostrum.

Not testing your bitches titres prior to mating is leaving the resulting pups very vulnerable to disease.

I am sorry I missed this question somehow, but feel it has already been answered anyways.....but will repeat myself a different way......My dogs are vaccinated, they have memory cells or they dont, nothing will change that, and no amount of assaulting their immune system with vaccine will improve it..they either are or they are not, you can not make a dog MORE immune it either is or it isnt, end of story............In all the years of breeding up to 10 pups in a litter , going to dog shows on an almost weekly basis & working with dogs every day & coming home to my pups, I have not had any diseases other than a little cough once, and have an amazingly high statistic compared to others in the breed, it is rare for me to lose a pup.

A titer test is not going to prove anything, if I was to titer one of my pack & find it had no immunity (and therefore never will) what are you suggesting I do with it?

It seems to me that what I do & what I ve experienced proves to me what I am doing is working, and as I know so many others that have been around 40 years etc that do the same or less than me in vax & never lose any pups either, this to me means more than people running about gathering "sheeple" putting false fear into them , based on very little other than drug company $$$$ & making their dogs sick so as to guarantee further extended income & drug use..........JMO

[Jed]

Cavalier

IMHO the reason why we are seeing "more" of these diseases is because diagnostics have improved, and people are more willing to spend money of their pets in this day and age - therefore more diagnoses occur.

Bullshit.

The reason we are seeing more of these diseases is because there ARE more of them.

NO boxer from any of the "big" kennels in Q (I know, because I asked EVERY one) died from cancer pre 1980s, pre combined vaccines. They all died at 9+ from heart failure etc. Some lived well into their teens. I lost one at 15, and one at 12. The diagnostics were good enough to differentiate cancer from heart failure. Now you are lucky to get a boxer to 10, and cancer seems to be in a lot of lines. Yes, it's probably hereditary, but it's interesting that cancers became prevalent in boxers from the 1980's onwards.

Pups were vaccinated with the temporary measles vaccine at 6 weeks, and given a permanent distemper shot at 12 weeks prior to that. The combines MLV vaccines were introduced to Aust late 70s, early 80s.

We've deranged their immune systems so much that they are throwing defective immune systems. I'm not a scientist, and I can see that.

And additionally, more and more breeds are now dying from mast cell tumors, lymphomas, bone cancer blah blah.

Smaller dogs seem to be have less incidence of cancer than big ones

Dogs have 35 times more skin cancer, 4 times as much breast cancer, 8 times as much bone cancer and twice as much leukemia as humans.

Research published in the British Journal of Cancer in 2001 suggests long term over activation of the immune system could be a major cause of cancer.

There are no proper studies because there is no money in studies.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence going back to Jean Dodds study on the poodle kennel in USA in 198something.

Google

Jean Dodds

Vaccinosis

Catherine O'Driscoll

Bob Rogers

I too vaccinate at 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 12 - 14 months and never again. I've been doing that for 14 years. I've had pups (not mine) here with confirmed parvo. None of my dogs or pups contracted parvo.

I don't vaccinate against kennel cough. There are many different strains, and kennel cough is rarely fatal, if treated competently from the beginning. In fact, none of my dogs have ever had kennel cough.

And I've had rescue dogs here for years, coming and going.

Two cavaliers I have sold which were vaccinated annually died from ketoneacidosis within a week or diagnosis despite not having diabetes; and leukemia within 6 days of diagnosis - both within 8 weeks of their annual C7 vaccination.

Which is in line with published research.

Before the combined vaccines when we only vaccinated against distemper, dogs acquired ongoing immunity from contact with other dogs, and it was thought the immunity was therefore boosted.

I believe the same thing happens with parvo and hep.

I personally know of 3 adult dogs, a staffy, a rottweiler, and a brown dog which died from parvo (the staffy belonged to a vet) despite having annual vaccinations.

75% of breeders in this country only give the 3 vaccinaations, and I am quite sure the incidence of parvo in registered dogs is lower than in the general dog population.

Not because they are purebred, but because they have sufficient immunity from those vaccinations and they are not over vaccinated.

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association has been vigorously campaigning against annual vaccinations for quite some time. The AVA, as far as I am aware, adopted that protocol this year, because of the threat of being liable for vaccinosis.

North American Universities adopted and recommended that protocol in 1997

WSAVA state that dogs properly vaccinated with MLV core vaccines have >98% protection from disease. The WSAVA fact sheets advise that duration of immunity after vaccination is seven years OR LONGER based on challenge and serological studies.

Dogs that have responded to vaccination with MLV core vaccines maintain a solid immunity (immununological memory) for many years in the absence of any repeat vaccinations

The evidence is out there, but it's easier for universities to blame those bastard dog breeders for breeding dogs with hereditary cancer, than to read the bloody studies which show (and have shown for years) that over vaccination is a huge and largely unrecognized problem, apart from some sentient and switched on members of the veterinary profession, and quite a lot of dog breeders.

And I'd gouge my eyes out with a spoon and eat my own vomit before I vaccinated a bitch pre mating. And probably pluck my nose hairs with a crowbar

And vaccinating them when they are pregnant kills the foetuses. Stone dead.

And to those confused about vaccinating your dog - I've been saying this for at ;east 6 years, please do google the vets I've given above as a reference, read what they have to say, read the studies, and make your own decision. They are the major veterinary researchers on vaccines in the world. The information is out there.

Dr W. Jean Dodds came to every capital city in Australia last year to explain about vaccines to the public and vets, and hardly any vets in Australia could be arsed to go and listen to the major researcher in the world.

Sad, eh?

Edited October 31, 2009 by Jed