Vaccines....

[joelle]

OKaaaayyyyy to simplify this for me,

My girl is 9 weeks old and was vaccinated with C3 at 6 wks. My breeders vet advised her to suggest to us newbies to get another C3 at 10 weeks (4 weeks later)

I really do trust my breeders (and her vet) advice but my vet is so against it. After speaking with her, I felt like I was shortchanging my dogs health.

My breeder (and I ) have heard that there are many strains of KC and the vaccine only covers 2 strains so why would you bother?

The chances of your dog catching the particular strain that the vaccine does prevent are probably relatively slim?

Soooooo, do I get C3 at 10 weeks and thats it or do I introduce a C3 at 12 weeks and another at 16 weeks.I have spoken to 3 different vets and all say different and are sure they are right and the others are either wanting to make more money or (the other side of the fence) simply dont care enough to prevent the diseases...Its not hard to see why a simple pet owner can get confused

Also if I ever need to board my dog, is it true most of them require proof of C5 vaccination?

[oakway]

OKaaaayyyyy to simplify this for me,

My girl is 9 weeks old and was vaccinated with C3 at 6 wks. My breeders vet advised her to suggest to us newbies to get another C3 at 10 weeks (4 weeks later)

I really do trust my breeders (and her vet) advice but my vet is so against it. After speaking with her, I felt like I was shortchanging my dogs health.

My breeder (and I ) have heard that there are many strains of KC and the vaccine only covers 2 strains so why would you bother?

The chances of your dog catching the particular strain that the vaccine does prevent are probably relatively slim?

Soooooo, do I get C3 at 10 weeks and thats it or do I introduce a C3 at 12 weeks and another at 16 weeks.I have spoken to 3 different vets and all say different and are sure they are right and the others are either wanting to make more money or (the other side of the fence) simply dont care enough to prevent the diseases...Its not hard to see why a simple pet owner can get confused

Also if I ever need to board my dog, is it true most of them require proof of C5 vaccination?

Hi,

If I was was in your position I would try and find a vet that uses the Nobivac C3 and give at 10 weeks. (I find that the Nobivac causes the least problems and has about a 36 hour vaccination period....well so my vet said)

As for kennel cough that is up to you. Yes, you are correct many Boarding Kennels will not take in a boarder that has not had Kennel Cough.

[ellz]

Star - could you please PM me what Jean Dodds had to say in regards to vaccination side effects?

Me too, please Staranais .

Me too please Staranais!

[laffi]

This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination.

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I am not saying that there is or there isn't a correlation for over-vaccination and cancer. I am saying that there are reasons why the scientific data is lacking and will be lacking for a very long time. Now if you want to stick to the position that because there is no scientific data it means the claims are not true, that's fine. But you need to be aware why there is no scientific data on the subject.

Sorry, I am a scientist and am always skeptical about any scientific evidence and also about the lack of thereof.

[Erny]

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I would be inclined to agree with you, Laffi.

And it is my albeit strong opinion that whilst we don't have the firm studies to rely on and therefore don't know the potential indirect links to other diseases that continual vaccination (when it may not be necessary) there may be, there is very sound reason to be very cautious about re-vaccinations and their frequencies.

I have calculated that we vaccinate approximately 10 000 dogs per year.

That certainly sounds a lot, Cavalier. Works out at just under 200 per week. You'd think it would get to a stage where the vaccinated dog population in your area would become satiated.

Are you seeing a reduction in the core diseases for which you are vaccinating in your area?

Do you see many of the vaccinated dogs succumb to the diseases for which they have been vaccinated?

Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny

[Cavalier]

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I would be inclined to agree with you, Laffi.

And it is my albeit strong opinion that whilst we don't have the firm studies to rely on and therefore don't know the potential indirect links to other diseases that continual vaccination (when it may not be necessary) there may be, there is very sound reason to be very cautious about re-vaccinations and their frequencies.

I have calculated that we vaccinate approximately 10 000 dogs per year.

That certainly sounds a lot, Cavalier. Works out at just under 200 per week. You'd think it would get to a stage where the vaccinated dog population in your area would become satiated.

Are you seeing a reduction in the core diseases for which you are vaccinating in your area?

Do you see many of the vaccinated dogs succumb to the diseases for which they have been vaccinated?

200 a week is very accurate - we are a very very busy clinic, both us vets work 80 hours a week

Reduction in core diseases - in general no. Even though we vaccinate 10000 dogs a year, there is still probably double that amount unvaccinated wandering around the streets spreading parvo and distemper.

Vaccinated dogs succumbing to disease - only pups before they have finished their full course (3x vaccines). Adult dogs who have been annually vaccinated - never.

[Cavalier]

This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination.

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I am not saying that there is or there isn't a correlation for over-vaccination and cancer. I am saying that there are reasons why the scientific data is lacking and will be lacking for a very long time. Now if you want to stick to the position that because there is no scientific data it means the claims are not true, that's fine. But you need to be aware why there is no scientific data on the subject.

Sorry, I am a scientist and am always skeptical about any scientific evidence and also about the lack of thereof.

I completely understand this Laffi. However a few people in this thread are claiming the evidence is out there....just nobody can provide us with it.... makes me very skeptical too

[pebbles]

Cavalier, 30,000 dogs in your area, the mind boggles Guess your lucky that you've never had a full immunised adult with parvo - I had an 19 month old Gordon Setter get it even though she'd been vacinated as a pup and boostered at 14 months. Fortunately due to a marvellous Vet, she survived. Friend's Shiba died from parvo at 2.5yrs and he was vacinated as a pup, booster at approx 13 months and again 12 months later. Haven't heard of distemper for many years.

May I ask approx. what region you are in?

eta - I'm another who only does the puppy vacs, then boosts at 14 months. Guess I'm lucky, in 50 years never had a dog with any problems.

Edited November 3, 2009 by pebbles

[whippets]

Cavalier I find it quizzical that you base your assumptions on your own experience, with no scientific data, yet demand evidence from another well qualified vet (Dodd's) who has a vast amount of experience in the field of vaccinations.

[Cavalier]

Cavalier, 30,000 dogs in your area, the mind boggles Guess your lucky that you've never had a full immunised adult with parvo - I had an 19 month old Gordon Setter get it even though she'd been vacinated as a pup and boostered at 14 months. Fortunately due to a marvellous Vet, she survived. Friend's Shiba died from parvo at 2.5yrs and he was vacinated as a pup, booster at approx 13 months and again 12 months later. Haven't heard of distemper for many years.

May I ask approx. what region you are in?

eta - I'm another who only does the puppy vacs, then boosts at 14 months. Guess I'm lucky, in 50 years never had a dog with any problems.

We are in a remote region of WA with a large number of indigenous communities. This is where the dog population comes from. Its not uncommon to have up to 20 dogs per household in these communities.

whippets - Im not publishing scientific papers and doing seminars to large number of dog breeder on my experience. When you go public you really need to have some evidence.

From what Star has said - It looks like Jean Dodds is not claiming what some people on here are claiming she claims (if that makes sense ) I think people are greatly misinterpreting the message that Jean Dodds is trying to put forward.

As a scientist - I have every right to question other scientists claims. Just as they have the right to question mine - if I ever make any!

If you read through my previous posts, Im not denying or claiming that vaccines cause any disease. I have just said in my personal experience from vaccinating a very large number of dogs, I have NEVER seen any of these side effects that breeders on here are claiming are extremely common.

[Cavalier]

Cavalier, 30,000 dogs in your area, the mind boggles Guess your lucky that you've never had a full immunised adult with parvo - I had an 19 month old Gordon Setter get it even though she'd been vacinated as a pup and boostered at 14 months. Fortunately due to a marvellous Vet, she survived. Friend's Shiba died from parvo at 2.5yrs and he was vacinated as a pup, booster at approx 13 months and again 12 months later. Haven't heard of distemper for many years.

May I ask approx. what region you are in?

eta - I'm another who only does the puppy vacs, then boosts at 14 months. Guess I'm lucky, in 50 years never had a dog with any problems.

Im confused - you said you had a dog get parvo after being vaccinated using your regime, then the next paragraph said in 50 years you have never had any problems...???

[pebbles]

Sorry Cavalier - I meant that I've never had any of the other problems, ie- cancers, allergies, metbolic, other side effects etc. Did have the one case of parvo when it was rife in our area. At the time I had a number of dogs and pups and the Gordon was the only one who got it so I guess her immune system was down as she had been immunised although she then lived to about 12 years without any other problems.

I can believe the dog numbers in some of the indigenous communities, seen quite a few in the NT. You're doing a great job to get so many immunised

[Jed]

Oakway

I have gone through the Jean Dodd's seminar notes and can find NO reference given by Jean Dodd's to vaccination causing Cancer, Thyroid etc.

The seminars only covered vaccination protocols really. She's done some interesting research on thyroid, bloat, seizures, but didn't discuss that at the seminars, I don't think.

[Cavalier]

Sorry Cavalier - I meant that I've never had any of the other problems, ie- cancers, allergies, metbolic, other side effects etc. Did have the one case of parvo when it was rife in our area. At the time I had a number of dogs and pups and the Gordon was the only one who got it so I guess her immune system was down as she had been immunised although she then lived to about 12 years without any other problems.

I can believe the dog numbers in some of the indigenous communities, seen quite a few in the NT. You're doing a great job to get so many immunised

I get you now

All my dogs (had 17 in total) until recently have been vaccinated yearly and had the proheart injection. The only cancer I can think of was in my entire Cav bitch who got an aggressive mammary tumour at age 12. This type of cancer has been scientifically proven to be associated with the prescence of oestrogen in unsterilsed bitches :p Everyone else has been happy as Larry

[Erny]

All my dogs (had 17 in total) ...

My !! Are you super woman or something Cav? Vaccinating 200 dogs per week between 2 people (which in itself would be a full time job by "full time" definition anyway, without anything outside of vaccination needles) and working 80 hours per week, I don't know how you would have time for 1 dog let alone a total of 17 (which I presume means multiple dog household). That's a lot of dogs, a lot of pressure on you (as I presume you do surgeries on top of spending a full day vaccinating). Don't know how you cope .

[Miss B]

200 a week is very accurate - we are a very very busy clinic, both us vets work 80 hours a week

I work in a busy clinic also, we have 6 vets (working 60-hour weeks) and I don't think even we would be doing 200 vaccinations per week.

[Cavalier]

All my dogs (had 17 in total) ...

My !! Are you super woman or something Cav? Vaccinating 200 dogs per week between 2 people (which in itself would be a full time job by "full time" definition anyway, without anything outside of vaccination needles) and working 80 hours per week, I don't know how you would have time for 1 dog let alone a total of 17 (which I presume means multiple dog household). That's a lot of dogs, a lot of pressure on you (as I presume you do surgeries on top of spending a full day vaccinating). Don't know how you cope .

I dont have 17 now!!! I just mean 17 throughout my life. Sorry should have clarified....I only have 5 at the mo.... I cope by spending time on DOL

200 a week is very accurate - we are a very very busy clinic, both us vets work 80 hours a week

I work in a busy clinic also, we have 6 vets (working 60-hour weeks) and I don't think even we would be doing 200 vaccinations per week.

I calculated it by how many consults a week we do (around 300) and about 2/3 of these are vaccines. Of course some weeks are busier and some are quieter. Ive worked in a lot of clinics - and how busy this clinic is would just blow your mind. If it was in the city it would easily be a 6-7 vet practice (working normal hours of course!).

Some sucker has to do it....

[Erny]

Cavalier ..... you said you're in NT, right?

[Erny]

I cope by spending time on DOL

If I worked 80 hours per week and had 5 dogs of my own, I wouldn't have TIME for DOL !!! (Oooh scarey thought that, huh? )

I used to work those hours, so I know what sort of pressure that represents. And I didn't have 5 dogs at the time!!

Some sucker has to do it....

You don't like to?

Edited November 3, 2009 by Erny

[Cavalier]

I cope by spending time on DOL :p

If I worked 80 hours per week and had 5 dogs of my own, I wouldn't have TIME for DOL !!! (Oooh scarey thought that, huh? )

I used to work those hours, so I know what sort of pressure that represents. And I didn't have 5 dogs at the time!!

Some sucker has to do it....

You don't like to?

LOL tounge in cheek comment Erny

I love my job, its my absolute passion and enjoy every moment....and love getting up at 5am to feed the horses.....did I mention I have 3 horses as well???....and 2 cats and a chicken!!!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Cavalier