Vaccines....

[Cavandra]

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses),

How many dogs are "many"? And can you please link to the studies about non-response to vaccines being associated with being a breed predisposed to immune disorders.

The only relevant studies I've seen showed that the vast majority of dogs seroconverted after vaccination for parvo.

It is a shame that we breeders & pet owners dont have statistics for you on websites & books, perhaps you can ask the expert in the field to get a list of breeds & some sort of stats...Australia is very poor in such things as we have no experts here. But email Dr Jean Dodds, she visited Australia last year & educated many folk, sadly, I only know of ONE Vet that turned up at the Sydney lecture, and they were very impressed & enlightened afterward. What a shame that all Vet clinics & universities werent represented to learn about immunity.

[Cavandra]

Cavalier

IMHO the reason why we are seeing "more" of these diseases is because diagnostics have improved, and people are more willing to spend money of their pets in this day and age - therefore more diagnoses occur.

Bullshit.

The reason we are seeing more of these diseases is because there ARE more of them.

Google

Jean Dodds

Vaccinosis

Catherine O'Driscoll

Bob Rogers

Dr W. Jean Dodds came to every capital city in Australia last year to explain about vaccines to the public and vets, and hardly any vets in Australia could be arsed to go and listen to the major researcher in the world.

Sad, eh?

Nice post Jed

Very informative, breeders are EXPERTS in their breed, it is their job to know all they can, but not just that , it is their PASSION........I hope our knowledge & wisdom isnt eventually erradicated by the need for statistics & website proof.........experience is everything !!!

I wonder how the law suit is going, Dr Bob Rogers was suing the drug companies for false/misleading recomendations on their products,(ie that annuals were NOT required, and corona was NOT req & lepto NOT req etc) and suing Vets in Texas I believe for carrying it out as breaching the code of ethics when they know corona is only in pups & lepto was ridiculous..I havent heard much about it recently........These things take years to go through I suppose but I do hope he succeeds as it will change world vaccination protocols from there on.

[Erny]

Google ... Bob Rogers

A link, to make it easier for some ...

Dr Bob Rogers

Thanks for the suggestion Jed. Wasn't aware of Dr. Bob Rogers.

[Jed]

My pleasure, Erny. Dr Bob is a fiesty one - as Cavandra says, he is sueing - if he wins, the you know what will hit the fan worldwide!!

This is what I give my puppy buyers in my information pack. Just for interest.

CHANGING VACCINE PROTOCOLS

W. Jean Dodds, DVM

938 Stanford Street

Santa Monica, CA 90403

(310) 828-4804;FAX (310)-828-8251

www.hemopet.org; [email protected]

The challenge to produce effective and safe vaccines for the prevalent infectious diseases of humans and animals has become increasingly difficult. In veterinary medicine, evidence implicating vaccines in triggering immune-mediated and other chronic disorders (vaccinosis) is compelling. While some of these problems have been traced to contaminated or poorly attenuated batches of vaccine that revert to virulence, others apparently reflect the host=s genetic predisposition to react adversely upon receiving the single (monovalent) or multiple antigen “combo” (polyvalent) products given routinely to animals. Animals of certain susceptible breeds or families appear to be at increased risk for severe and lingering adverse reactions to vaccines.

The onset of adverse reactions to conventional vaccinations (or other inciting drugs, chemicals, or infectious agents) can be an immediate hypersensitivity or anaphylactic reaction, or can occur acutely (24-48 hours afterwards), or later on (10-45 days) in a delayed type immune response often caused by immune-complex formation. Typical signs of adverse immune reactions include fever, stiffness, sore joints and abdominal tenderness, susceptibility to infections, central and peripheral nervous system disorders or inflammation, collapse with autoagglutinated red blood cells and jaundice, or generalized pinpoint hemorrhages or bruises. Liver enzymes may be markedly elevated, and liver or kidney failure may accompany bone marrow suppression. Furthermore, recent vaccination of genetically susceptible breeds has been associated with transient seizures in puppies and adult dogs, as well as a variety of autoimmune diseases including those affecting the blood, endocrine organs, joints, skin and mucosa, central nervous system, eyes, muscles, liver, kidneys, and bowel. It is postulated that an underlying genetic predisposition to these conditions places other littermates and close relatives at increased risk.

In cats, while adverse vaccine reactions may be less common, aggressive tumors (fibrosarcomas) can occasionally arise at the site of vaccination. A recent study from Italy reported finding similar tumors in dogs at the injection sites of vaccinations (Vascellari et al, 2003). These investigators stated that their “study identified distinct similarities between canine fibrosarcomas from presumed injection sites and feline post-vaccinal fibrosarcomas, suggesting the possibility of the development of post-injection sarcomas not only in cats, but also in dogs”.

Additionally, vaccination of pet and research dogs with polyvalent vaccines containing rabies virus or rabies vaccine alone was shown to induce production of antithyroglobulin autoantibodies, a provocative and important finding with implications for the subsequent development of hypothyroidism (Scott-Moncrieff et al, 2002).

Vaccination also can overwhelm the immunocompromised or even healthy host that is repeatedly challenged with other environmental stimuli and is genetically predisposed to react adversely upon viral exposure. The recently weaned young puppy or kitten entering a new environment is at greater risk here, as its relatively immature immune system can be temporarily or more permanently harmed. Consequences in later life may be the increased susceptibility to chronic debilitating diseases.

As combination vaccines contain antigens other than those of the clinically important infectious disease agents, some may be unnecessary; and their use may increase the risk of adverse reactions. With the exception of recently introduced mutivalent Leptospira spp. vaccines, the other leptospirosis vaccines afford little protection against the clinically important fields strains of leptospirosis, and the antibodies they elicit typically last only a few months. Other vaccines, such as for Lyme disease, may be advisable only in those geographical areas where the risk of exposure to Borrelia burgdorferi is significant. Annual or biannual revaccination for rabies is required by some states even though most USDA licensed rabies vaccine have a 3-year duration. Thus, the overall risk-benefit ratio of using certain vaccines or multiple antigen vaccines given simultaneously and repeatedly should be reexamined. It must be recognized, however, that we have the luxury of asking such questions today only because the risk of disease has been effectively reduced by the widespread use of vaccination programs.

Given this troublesome situation, what are the experts saying about these issues? In 1995, a landmark review commentary focused the attention of the veterinary profession on the advisability of current vaccine practices. Are we overvaccinating companion animals, and if so, what is the appropriate periodicity of booster vaccines ? Discussion of this provocative topic has generally lead to other questions about the duration of immunity conferred by the currently licensed vaccine components.

In response to questions posed in the first part of this article, veterinary vaccinologists have recommended new protocols for dogs and cats. These include: 1) giving the puppy or kitten vaccine series followed by a booster at one year of age; 2) administering further boosters in a combination vaccine every three years or as split components alternating every other year until; 3) the pet reaches geriatric age, at which time booster vaccination is likely to be unnecessary and may be unadvisable for those with aging or immunologic disorders. In the intervening years between booster vaccinations, and in the case of geriatric pets, circulating humoral immunity can be evaluated by measuring serum vaccine antibody titers as an indication of the presence of Aimmune memory@. Titers do not distinguish between immunity generated by vaccination and/or exposure to the disease, although the magnitude of immunity produced just by vaccination is usually lower (see Tables).

Except where vaccination is required by law, all animals, but especially those dogs or close relatives that previously experienced an adverse reaction to vaccination can have serum antibody titers measured annually instead of revaccination. If adequate titers are found, the animal should not need revaccination until some future date. Rechecking antibody titers can be performed annually, thereafter, or can be offered as an alternative to pet owners who prefer not to follow the conventional practice of annual boosters. Reliable serologic vaccine titering is available from several university and commercial laboratories and the cost is reasonable (Twark and Dodds, 2000; Lappin et al, 2002; Paul et al, 2003; Moore and Glickman, 2004).

Relatively little has been published about the duration of immunity following vaccination, although new data are beginning to appear for both dogs and cats.

Our recent study (Twark and Dodds, 2000), evaluated 1441 dogs for CPV antibody titer and 1379 dogs for CDV antibody titer. Of these, 95.1 % were judged to have adequate CPV titers, and nearly all (97.6 %) had adequate CDV titers. Vaccine histories were available for 444 dogs (CPV) and 433 dogs (CDV). Only 43 dogs had been vaccinated within the previous year, with the majority of dogs (268 or 60%) having received a booster vaccination 1-2 years beforehand. On the basis of our data, we concluded that annual revaccination is unnecessary. Similar findings and conclusions have been published recently for dogs in New Zealand (Kyle et al, 2002), and cats (Scott and Geissinger, 1999; Lappin et al, 2002). Comprehensive studies of the duration of serologic response to five viral vaccine antigens in dogs and three viral vaccine antigens in cats were recently published by researchers at Pfizer Animal Health ( Mouzin et al, 2004).

When an adequate immune memory has already been established, there is little reason to introduce unnecessary antigen, adjuvant, and preservatives by administering booster vaccines. By titering annually, one can assess whether a given animal=s humoral immune response has fallen below levels of adequate immune memory. In that event, an appropriate vaccine booster can be administered.

References

● Dodds WJ. More bumps on the vaccine road. Adv Vet Med 41:715-732, 1999.

● Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.

● Hogenesch H, Azcona-Olivera J, Scott-Moncreiff C, et al. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Adv Vet Med 41: 733-744, 1999.

● Hustead DR, Carpenter T, Sawyer DC, et al. Vaccination issues of concern to practitioners. J Am Vet Med Assoc 214: 1000-1002, 1999.

● Kyle AHM, Squires RA,Davies PR. Serologic status and response to vaccination against canine distemper (CDV) and canine parvovirus (CPV) of dogs vaccinated at different intervals. J Sm An Pract, June 2002.

● Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calicivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 220: 38-42, 2002.

● McGaw DL, Thompson M, Tate, D, et al. Serum distemper virus and parvovirus antibody titers among dogs brought to a veterinary hospital for revaccination. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 72-75, 1998.

● Moore GE, Glickman LT. A perspective on vaccine guidelines and titer tests for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 200-203. 2004.

· Moore et al, Adverse events diagnosed within three days of vaccine administration in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 227:1102–1108, 2005.

● Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to five viral antigens in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 55-60, 2004.

● Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to three viral antigens in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 61-66, 2004.

● Paul MA.Credibility in the face of controversy. Am An Hosp Assoc Trends MagazineXIV(2):19-21,1998.

● Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.

● Schultz RD. Current and future canine and feline vaccination programs. Vet Med 93:233-254, 1998.

● Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002 (insert).

● Scott FW, Geissinger CM. Long-term immunity in cats vaccinated with an inactivated trivalent vaccine. Am J Vet Res 60: 652-658, 1999.

● Scott-Moncrieff JC, Azcona-Olivera J, Glickman NW, et al. Evaluation of antithyroglobulin antibodies after routine vaccination in pet and research dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 221: 515-521, 2002.

● Smith CA. Are we vaccinating too much? J Am Vet Med Assoc 207:421-425, 1995.

● Tizard I, Ni Y. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 54-60, 1998.

● Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024, 2000.

● Vascellari M, Melchiotti E, Bozza MA et al. Fibrosarcomas at presumed sites of injection in dogs: characteristics and comparison with non-vaccination site fibrosarcomas and feline post-vaccinal firosarcomas. J Vet Med 50 (6): 286-291, 2003.

Table 1. “Core” Vaccines *

Dog Cat

Distemper Feline Parvovirus

Adenovirus Herpesvirus

Parvovirus Calicivirus

Rabies Rabies

_______________________________________

* Vaccines that every dog and cat should have

Table 2. Adverse Reaction Risks for Vaccines *

“There is less risk associated with taking a blood sample

for a titer test than giving an unnecessary vaccination.”

_______________________________________________

* Veterinary Medicine, February, 2002.

Table 3. Titer Testing and Vaccination *

“While difficult to prove, risks associated with overvaccination

are an increasing concern among veterinarians. These experts

say antibody titer testing may prove to be a valuable tool in

determining your patients’ vaccination needs.”

_____________________________________________________

* Veterinary Medicine, February, 2002.

Table 4. Vaccine Titer Testing *

“Research shows that once an animal’s titer stabilizes,

it is likely to remain constant for many years.”

_____________________________________________

* Veterinary Medicine, February, 2002.

[Serket]

Answering the original question.....

If I recall correctly the recent AVA vaccine protocal changes say that the last puppy vaccine should be given at 16 weeks, and if only one vaccination is to be given it should be that one.

Given the choice, I would probably do the first at 8 weeks, and then I don't know if I'd still do 12 and 16 or just 16.

I'd like to know why they say if only one vaccination is to be given, it should be at 16 weeks. To me that indicates that only doing two vaccs even at 8 and 12 or similar might possibly not be enough simply due to the timing rather than the number of vaccinations?

Many breeders are still doing 6 weeks, and so the decision is largely taken out of buyer's hands - I did 12 and 16 because of the first one being at 6 weeks (C3 for all three so didn't vote either)

Joelle - has your breeder done the first vaccination? If so, you're only looking at maximum of two more, not three. You wouldn't do 6wks (breeder) and then 8, 12, 16

If you do 3 it's normally first one by the breeder, and then the other two by you.

[joelle]

hi serket, rosie had her first one while still with the breeder. So I am deciding between doing just a 10 week or 10 and 16 weeks.....

[Erny]

hi serket, rosie had her first one while still with the breeder. So I am deciding between doing just a 10 week or 10 and 16 weeks.....

If it helps any, Joelle ...

My boy was given one at 6.5 weeks by his breeder.

I had him done again at about 12 weeks.

I had planned for that to be his last puppy vaccination, but Dr Jean Dodds advised me to get the 16 week one done as well. She said that if his second shot had been when he was 14 weeks or older, then he wouldn't have needed any more.

I didn't get the third one done though, as he wasn't on top of the world healthy. But I did titre test to confirm sero-conversion. (Picked up that terminology from Staranais :( )

[Serket]

If you were only going to do one more, then I'd make it the 16 week one since that seems to be in line with the recently revised AVA protocol.

I'm not at all keen on annual vaccinations and will annoy my vet with titre test talk when the time comes, but with puppy vaccinations I think I'll probably continue to err on the side of what may be paranoia and get 3, but if it was two then the last one would definitely be at 16 weeks I think. If the first one was at 6 weeks, then I'd be too worried to wait until 16 weeks and would get 12 weeks as well (like I've done this time).

Parvo is scary I want to do everything I can to avoid it

Edited October 31, 2009 by Serket

[Sankari]

I havent had a puppy for a long time, but my next pup I am going for the 3 vaccs (first done by breeder of course).

[Cavalier]

It seems to be that people with very little scientific knowledge are attempting to interpret scientific reports and are interpreting the results rather incorrectly.

You have to remember that these are almost all hypotheses - not "fact", none of it has been scientifically proven.

Cavandra blames thyroid problems on vaccines, however in this letter they claimed the rabies vaccination caused the production of anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. Then explain this to me.....why in Australia - where we do not routinely vaccinate for rabies, do we still very commonly see hypothyroidism???

Jed - we will just have to disagree on this one. Veterinary Medicine has changed completely since the 1970s and 80s. Cancer was largely unstudied in dogs and cats back then. "New" diseases are not necessarily new, it just that they have now been documented and studied, or scientists have found a test for a previously "undiagnosable" condition.

Cavandra - if I found out one of my bitches did not have protective titres of antibodies before mating, she would not be mated! Not all dogs keep their immunity for life. It ranges dramatically from 1 year to 10+ years.

As far as experience goes - vets have experience as well I vaccinate approximately 100 dogs per week and have for many years. The worst adverse reaction I have seen was a swollen face 1 hour after vaccination, and a local reaction at the vaccination site. No seizures 3 months after, no IMHA, no death. As for Proheart - which I also do about 100 injections a week, I have NEVER seen a reaction tot his injection. We would know if any dog/cat had a reaction as we are the closest vet for 400kms and we have fantastic clients who are very attentive to their pets.

It is very dangerous that people without a scientific background are interpreting scientific data, and taking it as gospel. That is not what science is about.

[Jed]

It seems to be that people with very little scientific knowledge are attempting to interpret scientific reports and are interpreting the results rather incorrectly.

You have to remember that these are almost all hypotheses - not "fact", none of it has been scientifically proven.

Cavandra blames thyroid problems on vaccines, however in this letter they claimed the rabies vaccination caused the production of anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. Then explain this to me.....why in Australia - where we do not routinely vaccinate for rabies, do we still very commonly see hypothyroidism???

Jed - we will just have to disagree on this one. Veterinary Medicine has changed completely since the 1970s and 80s. Cancer was largely unstudied in dogs and cats back then. "New" diseases are not necessarily new, it just that they have now been documented and studied, or scientists have found a test for a previously "undiagnosable" condition.

Cavandra - if I found out one of my bitches did not have protective titres of antibodies before mating, she would not be mated! Not all dogs keep their immunity for life. It ranges dramatically from 1 year to 10+ years.

As far as experience goes - vets have experience as well I vaccinate approximately 100 dogs per week and have for many years. The worst adverse reaction I have seen was a swollen face 1 hour after vaccination, and a local reaction at the vaccination site. No seizures 3 months after, no IMHA, no death. As for Proheart - which I also do about 100 injections a week, I have NEVER seen a reaction tot his injection. We would know if any dog/cat had a reaction as we are the closest vet for 400kms and we have fantastic clients who are very attentive to their pets.

It is very dangerous that people without a scientific background are interpreting scientific data, and taking it as gospel. That is not what science is about.

We will have to disagree. I will go with veterinary experts who have spent 20 - 3o years researching vaccines in preference to anyone else with lesser credentials. And, I believe you have not been a vet for 20 years. I can assure you that there were sufficient tests and sufficient knowledge to diagnose quite a lot of cancers,and differentiate between them and other things. Vets did not diagnose ailments by the phases of the moon then, they used clinical tests, or elimination, and I can assure you that cancer was able to be diagnosed, as it was in people.

There are sufficient published papers by well qualified researchers to provide proof. The fact that vaccination protocols worldwide have and are changing as more and more research brings proof should be a wake up call.

You need to remember that lots of people are educated these days, and whilst their education may not have been in science streams, they have sufficient knowledge, and/or undergrad degrees or PhDs in other disciples, to be able to interpret information, which in most cases, is not couched in particularly scientific terms, but in simple terms which any yobbo can understand. And for those yobbos who can't understand, Jean Dodds was kind enough to couch the scientific mumbo jumbo in simple words of one syllable for us. So kind. Even I could understand.

I haven't brought up the issue of thyroid, but there are thyroid cases in Aust which Jean Dodds attributes to vaccines, although not rabies vaccines. You need to do some further research.

You have to remember that these are almost all hypotheses - not "fact", none of it has been scientifically proven.

I think you should delve a bit more. Most of the websites do not have references, but the references exist. A lot of the cases of vaccinosis are not proven, but many are. Ergo, if a cat develops a cancer at the site of a vaccination (and many do), you could extrapolate that by the KISS method, the vac. caused the cancer. Although there is no proof. If x dogs are vaccinated and a large percentage develop lymphoma within z weeks, far higher than the general population, you might just consider that some of those figures were not just "chance".

I don't think the AVA took the decision to alter the vac. protocol lightly. Changing the protocol was discussed at the AVA annual conference some years ago, and nothing was done. As more evidence comes to light and the chances of Aust vets having to defend numerous suits from owners of dogs affected by vaccinations, the only wise course was to change the protocols as far as the AVA recommendations to their members. Approximately 55% of vets in Aust are AVA members.

Frankly, I'd prefer to believe a world acknowledged expert on vaccines who has done enormous research and study over 30 years, and who has published studies in journals world wide, backed by two other well qualified veterinarians who have similarly published results of research - not in the Womens Weekly, but in veterinary journals, with protocols and editing procedures.

The longer you practise, the more adverse reactions you will see. You will kill chihuahuas who will drop dead in the surgery, you will kill obstensibly healthy pups, you will see dogs go flat, and despite supportive treatment, die; you will see dogs develop, over time, atopic skin problems, rheumatism and other problems believed to be caused by vaccinations and if you are open in your desire to learn more as you go, you will begin to wonder. Of course, you can put maltese deaths down to liver problems, or chihuahua deaths down to undiagnosed encephalitis, and other deaths down to "worms" or whatever your wish, but as they mount up, perhaps you will wonder if there just may be another cause.

If not you will probably continue to ascribe the results as due to the general unhealthiness of the dogs affected, or other causes.

I never ask pet owners to believe me - I ask them to check out the research.

Most vets aren't even aware of the research, or, like you, discount it because it doesn't agree with their particular tenets, or is not in line with what they were taught at university. But things are changing. In 10 years, these protocols will be accepted as the norm.

And, yes, we will have to disagree.

You might think I am wrong, but I know you are wrong. Pets should be vaccinated, but they should be vaccinated to prevent the diseases the vaccines were developed for, not over vaccinated to cause other problems far worse than the original diseases.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Jed

[Cavalier]

If most of the website do not have references - then they are not reputable. Period.

I am not saying I advocate annual vaccination - I do not vaccinate my own animals annually. I do however not believe that dogs should have one puppy course of vaccines and that is it.

The research I have read in regards to vaccinations has stated that it is extremely variable as to how long a dog remains immune to certain diseases after vaccinating. These studies were done by infecting animals in laboratory condition with parvovirus x number of years after vaccinating.

I would never let my dog go its whole life without titre testing. IMHO it is irresponsible.

Also - I never said I have been a vet for 20 years, doesnt take away from the fact that even a vet with only 1-2 years of experience will see more dogs vaccinated than a breeder in their whole breeding career.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Cavalier

[Cavalier]

And I never ask pet owners to believe me - I ask them to check out the research. Most vets aren't even aware of the research, or, like you, discount it because it doesn't agree with their particular tenets, or is not in line with what they were taught at university. But things are changing. In 10 years, these protocols will be accepted as the norm.

And, yes, we will have to disagree.

I do not disregard the research, but I am yet to see any reputable research paper which shows that dogs remain immune for life after only a puppy course. What a lot of people arent realising that a lot of this vaccination debate is stemming from extremely bad science. This is what concerns me - that people are taking what is very poor research, and mostly opinions and taking it as gospel.

[Jed]

Also - I never said I have been a vet for 20 years, doesnt take away from the fact that even a vet with only 1-2 years of experience will see more dogs vaccinated than a breeder in their whole breeding career.

You misunderstood me, I probably wasn't very lucid. You weren't a vet 20 years ago, and you seem to believe that vets at that time were not accurately able to detect cancer, or other causes of death. There are certainly results of more study and researh available today, but I can assure you that vets were able to diagnose dogs with most forms of cancer, and differentiate between cancer and other problems. There simply weren't many - and NONE in boxers. I hardly believe that many different vets would ALL be incompetent diagnosticians.

I oversaw the vaccination of 500 - 600 pups annually over a 5 year period, and the development and spread or control of parvovirus in vaccinated and unvaccinated pups. What I discovered over that time is what led me to research further into parvo. And believe me, the mortality statistics on manufacturers' websites are vastly understated.

Dog breeders do not live in caves surrounded by whelping bitches, you know, carefully sounding out each letter of the alphabet so they can comprehend the show results. Those "breeders" you see being collared by the RSPCA on a regular basis are the underbelly of dog breeding. They do it badly because they never learned, or stopped learning.

There are proper breeders out there who understand world events, hold down well paid jobs, talk to leaders of industry, manage banks, own small busnesses, advocate in court, heal the sick both physically and mentally, drive buses, and put as much enthuiasm and study into their hobby as they do into their careers. They read, discuss, keep up with research, so they can breed better dogs. And so they can advise their puppy buyers how best to keep their healthy puppy healthy into old age.

You might like to check the references I gave in my earlier post, where I quoted the information I give my puppy buyers. There are reference listed there.

Some websites do give references. Like you, I don't believe anything without a link to a published paper. I've been reading Bob Rogers, Catherine O'Driscoll and Jean Dodds for 15 years. There are references for everything, or you can contact them, but a lot of the information has been transferred to other websites, and the references haven't moved with it. You need to search for it. I don't have time to reference it all, and I don't think you would believe it anyhow.

But - it doesn't matter. You will do what your course has taught you, and I will do what I have learned is the right thing. If I find I am wrong, I will change. I haven't yet, in 14 years, but who knows?

[Staranais]

And I never ask pet owners to believe me - I ask them to check out the research. Most vets aren't even aware of the research, or, like you, discount it because it doesn't agree with their particular tenets, or is not in line with what they were taught at university. But things are changing. In 10 years, these protocols will be accepted as the norm.

And, yes, we will have to disagree.

I do not disregard the research, but I am yet to see any reputable research paper which shows that dogs remain immune for life after only a puppy course.

I've seen a few:

Showing protection lasting at least 3 years after puppy course in the majority of animals, challenge and serological studies:

* Gill, M., Srinivas, J., Morozov, I., Smith, J., Anderson, C., Glover, S., Champ, D., & Chu, H.-J. (2004). Three-year duration of immunity for canine distemper, adenovirus, and parvovirus after vaccination with a multivalent canine vaccine. The International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine, 2, 227 - 234.

32 pups challenged 3 years after their puppy C3 course from Fort Dodge.

* Mouzin, D. E., Lorenzen, M. J., D, H. J., & King, V. L. (2004). Duration of serological response to five viral antigens in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, 224, 55 - 60.

Three core antibodies last longer than 3 years in 98% of the dogs tested.

Showing protection lasting 3 - 7 years in the majority of animals, serology study:

* Twark, L., & Dodds, W. K. (2000). Clinical use of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association 217, 1021 - 1024.

95% of the 1441 dogs surveyed had protective parvo titres, and 98% had protective CDV titres. A large proportion of the dogs had recieved their last adult vaccine between 3 and 7 years before.

It's not conclusive, of course, not at all. Unfortunately none of the study groups titred directly after vaccination, so we have no idea if the dogs that weren't immune when challenged with the virus at the end of the protocol never seroconverted, or whether they were once immune but lost their immunity over time. The puppy challenge studies also don't challenge any of the pups one year after vaccination, so we have no idea whether the vaccines were as protective after 3 year as they would have been at 1 year post vaccination, which could be very relevant information in a high parvo area. And nothing I've found tested dogs more than 7 years after vaccination. But some reasonable research on that topic is out there.

What I haven't seen is any good evidence proving that vaccines cause cancer, allergies, or thyroid issues in dogs, although the hypothetical link between these problems and vaccination is often quoted as if they are fact. Whenever I ask, people either link me to an unreferenced website, they say "Jean Dodds says so!" but can't give link to where she has published any evidence, quote me a study that doesn't exist or doesn't prove anything at all, or are just too busy to find me the references. But everyone assures me that the evidence is out there if I just keep looking. Kind of like the X-files.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Staranais

[whippets]

Also - I never said I have been a vet for 20 years, doesnt take away from the fact that even a vet with only 1-2 years of experience will see more dogs vaccinated than a breeder in their whole breeding career.

You misunderstood me, I probably wasn't very lucid. You weren't a vet 20 years ago, and you seem to believe that vets at that time were not accurately able to detect cancer, or other causes of death. There are certainly results of more study and researh available today, but I can assure you that vets were able to diagnose dogs with most forms of cancer, and differentiate between cancer and other problems. There simply weren't many - and NONE in boxers. I hardly believe that many different vets would ALL be incompetent diagnosticians.

I oversaw the vaccination of 500 - 600 pups annually over a 5 year period, and the development and spread or control of parvovirus in vaccinated and unvaccinated pups. What I discovered over that time is what led me to research further into parvo. And believe me, the mortality statistics on manufacturers' websites are vastly understated.

Dog breeders do not live in caves surrounded by whelping bitches, you know, carefully sounding out each letter of the alphabet so they can comprehend the show results. Those "breeders" you see being collared by the RSPCA on a regular basis are the underbelly of dog breeding. They do it badly because they never learned, or stopped learning.

There are proper breeders out there who understand world events, hold down well paid jobs, talk to leaders of industry, manage banks, own small busnesses, advocate in court, heal the sick both physically and mentally, drive buses, and put as much enthuiasm and study into their hobby as they do into their careers. They read, discuss, keep up with research, so they can breed better dogs. And so they can advise their puppy buyers how best to keep their healthy puppy healthy into old age.

You might like to check the references I gave in my earlier post, where I quoted the information I give my puppy buyers. There are reference listed there.

Some websites do give references. Like you, I don't believe anything without a link to a published paper. I've been reading Bob Rogers, Catherine O'Driscoll and Jean Dodds for 15 years. There are references for everything, or you can contact them, but a lot of the information has been transferred to other websites, and the references haven't moved with it. You need to search for it. I don't have time to reference it all, and I don't think you would believe it anyhow.

But - it doesn't matter. You will do what your course has taught you, and I will do what I have learned is the right thing. If I find I am wrong, I will change. I haven't yet, in 14 years, but who knows?

Fantastic post.

[whippets]

It seems to be that people with very little scientific knowledge are attempting to interpret scientific reports and are interpreting the results rather incorrectly.

You have to remember that these are almost all hypotheses - not "fact", none of it has been scientifically proven.

Cavandra blames thyroid problems on vaccines, however in this letter they claimed the rabies vaccination caused the production of anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. Then explain this to me.....why in Australia - where we do not routinely vaccinate for rabies, do we still very commonly see hypothyroidism???

Jed - we will just have to disagree on this one. Veterinary Medicine has changed completely since the 1970s and 80s. Cancer was largely unstudied in dogs and cats back then. "New" diseases are not necessarily new, it just that they have now been documented and studied, or scientists have found a test for a previously "undiagnosable" condition.

Cavandra - if I found out one of my bitches did not have protective titres of antibodies before mating, she would not be mated! Not all dogs keep their immunity for life. It ranges dramatically from 1 year to 10+ years.

As far as experience goes - vets have experience as well I vaccinate approximately 100 dogs per week and have for many years. The worst adverse reaction I have seen was a swollen face 1 hour after vaccination, and a local reaction at the vaccination site. No seizures 3 months after, no IMHA, no death. As for Proheart - which I also do about 100 injections a week, I have NEVER seen a reaction tot his injection. We would know if any dog/cat had a reaction as we are the closest vet for 400kms and we have fantastic clients who are very attentive to their pets.

It is very dangerous that people without a scientific background are interpreting scientific data, and taking it as gospel. That is not what science is about.

Do you think most people on here have no education? We have plenty of university educated and life experience people on these forums. I myself have completed a nursing degree, post graduate and now a commerce degree. I am quite capable of analysing, critically evaluate and interpret data.

I'm not targeting you personally. I am sure you are a great vet but you can understand that there are vets and there are vets, as with human Dr's. There are some Dr's out there that I wouldn't allow to lance a boil let alone perform surgery. Credability is a huge part of any profession.

Edited October 31, 2009 by whippets

[oakway]

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses),

How many dogs are "many"? And can you please link to the studies about non-response to vaccines being associated with being a breed predisposed to immune disorders.

The only relevant studies I've seen showed that the vast majority of dogs seroconverted after vaccination for parvo.

It is a shame that we breeders & pet owners dont have statistics for you on websites & books, perhaps you can ask the expert in the field to get a list of breeds & some sort of stats...Australia is very poor in such things as we have no experts here. But email Dr Jean Dodds, she visited Australia last year & educated many folk, sadly, I only know of ONE Vet that turned up at the Sydney lecture, and they were very impressed & enlightened afterward. What a shame that all Vet clinics & universities werent represented to learn about immunity.

There are many of us who take our knowledge from the world authorities not the local vet.

[poodlefan]

It is a shame that we breeders & pet owners dont have statistics for you on websites & books, perhaps you can ask the expert in the field to get a list of breeds & some sort of stats...Australia is very poor in such things as we have no experts here. But email Dr Jean Dodds, she visited Australia last year & educated many folk, sadly, I only know of ONE Vet that turned up at the Sydney lecture, and they were very impressed & enlightened afterward. What a shame that all Vet clinics & universities werent represented to learn about immunity.

Dr Dodds was brought to Australia by the Golden Retriever folk and gave presentations at their Nationals.

My friend and I drove from Canberra to Sydney to see her presentation. So did a few dog breeders. Her Sydney audience was mostly dog sports folk and breeders.

Yes, it was a pity there weren't more vets there. Frankly I think a lot of vets need to do some rethinking about their "desex everything at 6 months and jab them once a year for life" standard approach to dog husbandry. Don't even get me started on how many vets allow their clients to carry far too much weight without saying a word to owners.

My vet, although very knowledgeable, was anti-titre until recently. She now does them. She said she's concerned that a lot of her pet dog owners would balk at the potential cost of titreing and then having to vaccinate or that they'll not come in for annual check ups. I think her concerns are justified.

Edited October 31, 2009 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses),

How many dogs are "many"? And can you please link to the studies about non-response to vaccines being associated with being a breed predisposed to immune disorders.

The only relevant studies I've seen showed that the vast majority of dogs seroconverted after vaccination for parvo.

It is a shame that we breeders & pet owners dont have statistics for you on websites & books, perhaps you can ask the expert in the field to get a list of breeds & some sort of stats...Australia is very poor in such things as we have no experts here. But email Dr Jean Dodds, she visited Australia last year & educated many folk, sadly, I only know of ONE Vet that turned up at the Sydney lecture, and they were very impressed & enlightened afterward. What a shame that all Vet clinics & universities werent represented to learn about immunity.

There are many of us who take our knowledge from the world authorities not the local vet.

I'm happy to read and learn from any good research published by your world authorities, Oakway. I've read some good papers published by Dr Dodds, for example - I quoted one in a previous post.

But I'm not happy taking anything as gospel merely because Dr Dodds (or anyone else) says so, no matter how much of an authority she is. That's faith, not science. Even world authorities need to produce statistics and studies to back up what they say, so that other people can read those studies and see if they agree with the conclusions that have been drawn from them.

When I go to advise my clients on vaccination in 2 years time, then for ethical and legal reason I need to have concrete evidence to back up what I'm recommending - actual peer reviewed studies that I have read myself, not just "some lady on the internet told me that vaccinations give dogs cancer".

Edited October 31, 2009 by Staranais