Formal Heeling On The Other Side

[Diablo]

If aggression doesn't remain a relevant factor in a working-line GSDs behaviour at any time you would have to wonder if the earth was still spinning. Never mind the myriad of different factors involved in dog behaviour, let alone the behaviour of dogs who have inherently lower thresholds and who would find themselves in trouble with the authorities for the most minor infraction simply because of their breed's reputation.

But I promise you, as soon as I effect the "complete cure" of her aggression that you seem to think is reasonable, I'll start to work on that cure for cancer too. I don't know whether to be flattered that you think I'm capable of this, or stunned that you think you are capable of this.

Not that I have ever claimed to be "purely positive", but if you are unaware that dogs are passing Schutzhund and obedience tests using those methods, then you must have been living under a rock. Efficacy is no longer the question, rather the level of environmental control and self-discipline that you are willing to demonstrate is the big question and I would begrudge no-one the choice to go whichever way they chose.

My dog regularly walks with other dogs, some of which I know she would love to have a crack at. She has a considerable amount of freedom on these walks, as much as I am willing to give her. More than a lot of sport dogs that I know of. I trust her more than I trust the unknown dogs that we might pass, but you and I know that the GSD will always get the blame.

I also have a young family, two businesses, play three types of rugby, train daily for powerlifting, and spend too much time here. I train far less than most people here, I am sure of that.

So when you decide to ask this question on a public forum, OFF TOPIC, hijacking someone else's thread, complete with the "eek" emoticon and without any qualification whatsoever - I think I am right in assuming that you are just stirring up trouble. Combine this with your public cheap shot at Mark Singer's reputation recently, and I am starting to form a picture. Don't play coy with me.

Come on Aidan, I read your posts and your website and you dropped your guard telling us about your GSD's aggression issue and I picked up on it............that's what you are hostile about be honest???. It doesn't take psycho analysis and any other mumbo jumbo to correct civil aggression which after 30 years of owning and training high drive GSD's, the behaviour that your dog exhibits is common in a good working dog and can be corrected in a few days. In fact, it should have been recognised and dealt with by 6 months of age if you genuinely have experience handling dogs of that type.

Civil aggression is dangerous Aidan, and not having bullet proof control of a civil dog can land you in a whole lot of strife. It's not about swapping sides and running around the corner and convincing yourself that avoidance is sensible, it's about tackling the situation head on and correcting the problem.........perhaps you should consider contacting Mark Singer for some advice???

Edited November 3, 2009 by Diablo

[corvus]

Oh, I do love it when people on the internet think they have a situation they haven't seen with a dog they don't know and a handler they've never met totally nailed. There's really no point arguing with someone that somehow knows exactly what is happening better than the person who is actually witnessing it.

The hypocrisy of internet forums.

[Staranais]

Come on Aidan, I read your posts and your website and you dropped your guard telling us about your GSD's aggression issue and I picked up on it............that's what you are hostile about be honest???. It doesn't take psycho analysis and any other mumbo jumbo to correct civil aggression which after 30 years of owning and training high drive GSD's, the behaviour that your dog exhibits is common in a good working dog and can be corrected in a few days. In fact, it should have been recognised and dealt with by 6 months of age if you genuinely have experience handling dogs of that type.

Is your GSD actually "cured" of aggression though, Diablo, or are there still situations that you still have to avoid or manage your dog in?

I'd be impressed if you can turn him loose in a dog park with a bunch of strange dogs, or allow screaming primary school kids to run up to him and tug his ears, or allow strangers to approach him on the street when you're not there, and be confident he will act appropriately without him being under command.

Most if not all dogs, especially predatory, aggressive or formerly aggressive dogs, do need to be managed somewhat. How much management you need to do is merely a matter of degree.

There are situations I wouldn't expect my girl to be able to cope with when she's older, and situations I expect to have to either avoid or manage her in. That's just the reality of owning a working line shepherd, or any predatory or aggressive breed. If I wanted a dog park dog, I would have gotten a golden retriever.

[Kavik]

There are situations I wouldn't expect my girl to be able to cope with when she's older, and situations I expect to have to either avoid or manage her in. That's just the reality of owning a working line shepherd, or any predatory or aggressive breed. If I wanted a dog park dog, I would have gotten a golden retriever.

[Aidan]

Thanks for your input Diablo. My dog does not have a problem with civil aggression, that is an incorrect assumption.

Diablo, I have been very upfront about my journey with Sabella, describing all my faults and my journey in detail very publicly. I haven't hidden my identity and I don't use multiple accounts. It is all there if you want to find out the real story, you don't need to wait for me to "drop my guard" and you don't need to fill in the blanks yourself.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Aidan

[Kelpie-i]

I work with aggressive dogs and own one myself and I can tell you that there is not such thing as a 'cure'. It's all about strategic and micro management, familiarisation of triggers, conditioning new behaviours and desensitisation.

Just because a dog has been corrected enough times that he learns avoidance strategies does not mean he is cured of anything.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Agility Dogs]

Sometimes being able to heel a previously aggressive dog past other dogs while retaining that dog's focus is a huge achievement.

x2. Well done - that is an awsome result.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with Kelpie i. I own a highly fearful dog (we're talking about extreme panic and no fight response, not just a bit timid) and while she is a million times better than she used to be- its still there. The threshold has been raised to the point where she deals well with normal situations and the situations she cannot deal with, i choose not to put her in.

I have clients with aggressive dogs and even those who have improved the most and are truly exceptional IMO are not cured.

It would make for an interesting discussion though- the definition of 'cured' and not just in relation to aggression. Will start another topic on this later

I really hope that people like Aidan do not get put off posting here because of inflammatory posts as it would be a real shame. I don't agree with everything another trainer says or does but that doesn't mean i can't respect them and vice versa. I like different view points as it makes for great discussion.

[PAX]

It is sad when people take a public forum a place to make personel attacks....and to take the original post so far Off Topic. Makes you wonder how their dogs are treated??

There is a PM function you know. :D

This topic is about heeling on the right hand side. :D

Edited November 4, 2009 by PAX

[Tiggy]

It is sad when people take a public forum a place to make personel attacks....and to take the original post so far Off Topic. Makes you wonder how their dogs are treated??

There is a PM function you know.

This topic is about heeling on the right hand side.

[Diablo]

Thanks for your input Diablo. My dog does not have a problem with civil aggression, that is an incorrect assumption.

Diablo, I have been very upfront about my journey with Sabella, describing all my faults and my journey in detail very publicly. I haven't hidden my identity and I don't use multiple accounts. It is all there if you want to find out the real story, you don't need to wait for me to "drop my guard" and you don't need to fill in the blanks yourself.

I know the real story Aidan, thanks for the debate

Edited November 4, 2009 by Diablo

[OSoSwift]

And that is related to heeling on the right because.....................................................

........................

[Diablo]

'Staranais' date='4th Nov 2009 - 06:21 AM' post='4093866'

Is your GSD actually "cured" of aggression though, Diablo, or are there still situations that you still have to avoid or manage your dog in?

I'd be impressed if you can turn him loose in a dog park with a bunch of strange dogs, or allow screaming primary school kids to run up to him and tug his ears, or allow strangers to approach him on the street when you're not there, and be confident he will act appropriately without him being under command.

Most if not all dogs, especially predatory, aggressive or formerly aggressive dogs, do need to be managed somewhat. How much management you need to do is merely a matter of degree.

There are situations I wouldn't expect my girl to be able to cope with when she's older, and situations I expect to have to either avoid or manage her in. That's just the reality of owning a working line shepherd, or any predatory or aggressive breed. If I wanted a dog park dog, I would have gotten a golden retriever.

No, my GSD is aggressive civil and social and managed with training to obey commands basically.

[Diablo]

I work with aggressive dogs and own one myself and I can tell you that there is not such thing as a 'cure'. It's all about strategic and micro management, familiarisation of triggers, conditioning new behaviours and desensitisation.

Just because a dog has been corrected enough times that he learns avoidance strategies does not mean he is cured of anything.

What strategies a dog has learned has no relevence Kelpie-i. The only thing of relevence is simply if the dog exhibits a particular behaviour or it doesn't.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Diablo

[Kelpie-i]

I work with aggressive dogs and own one myself and I can tell you that there is not such thing as a 'cure'. It's all about strategic and micro management, familiarisation of triggers, conditioning new behaviours and desensitisation.

Just because a dog has been corrected enough times that he learns avoidance strategies does not mean he is cured of anything.

What strategies a dog has learned has no relevence Kelpie-i. The only thing of relevence is simply if the dog exhibits a particular behaviour or it doesn't.

Um yes it does Diablo, very much so. If the only thing your dog has learned is to show avoidance behaviours around other dogs through heavy use of corrections, you have not taught this dog any coping strategies for when/if he comes into a situation that he is not comfortable being in. Happens all the time since you cannot control your environment and what other dogs do. This dog is a ticking time bomb.

Sorry to the OP, way off topic!

[Aidan]

I know the real story Aidan, thanks for the debate

No, you are completely incorrect. My dog HAS civil aggression, but this has never been a problem and I would not walk her on the opposite side if a human alone were passing as she is under control and does not display those behaviours inappropriately. My only concern is other dogs who lunge, which is a problem if they are close. Every dog has a right to self-defence in nature, but not in the laws of man.

If you had genuine concerns for me you would have raised it in a PM. If you wished to have a public discussion or even debate you would have started a new thread.

You, Diablo, are all about cheap shots at people you know nothing about to make yourself look superior. No amount of cutesy smiley faces or "oh, sorry, I don't know why you got upset?" will hide that fact. I suggest you change your name and try to do better next time, but if history is anything to go by I doubt you will.

[Lablover]

I'm always a little worried about dogs stressing their necks by spending their whole obedience careers only heeling on one side.

I need to ask with the short duration heeling requirements, do you perform warm up and cool down exercises with your dog/s?