Staranais Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I've started doing some clicker perch work with my new little girl to build hind end awareness, and have just started naming the positions: "front" "heel" and "otherside" so she can learn to flip between them on cue. I think when I start teaching a formal heel in a month or two, I might do it on both sides. We only dabble in obedience, I'm not a serious competitor, but I'm always a little worried about dogs stressing their necks by spending their whole obedience careers only heeling on one side. Plus it seems like it would be fun to teach both. Does anyone else do this? Is it done in Rally-O? I've never seen it done, and I don't know why. Are people concerned the dog will get confused between regular and off-side heeling? (We're also practicing between the legs heeling after viewing this video to help build some hind end awareness and just for fun, and it's fast becoming her favourite game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I did it, but only because of agility... Jedi only knew my left side and he would refuse to go anywhere near my right! It was a really interesting experience! It was like I only had one half of me and the other side was a no-go zone!! I went home that night and taught "close" (right side heeling) and the next time we went to agility he was able to work on my right. I hardly ever practice it with Jedi because I want left side heelwork to be the most reinforcing for him. You don't need it for Rally-O. The dog is always on your left. The only thing I could think it would be 'useful' for competition-wise is Heelwork to Music/Dancing with Dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Poppy heels on both sides. You just need to think about your left about turns. If you do the behind the back turn then you can run into problems with the dog just changing heeling sides instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsablue Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 TerraNik said "The only thing I could think it would be 'useful' for competition-wise is Heelwork to Music/Dancing with Dogs." Hi TerraNik, I've got a DVD Of Richard Curtis training his young dog for heelwork to music called "Puppy to Performance" His website: www.k9freestyle.co.uk I think it would be helpful for increasing the dog's backend awareness. In the DVD he also does dog keeping front position so dog is sidestepping while he sidesteps; they are at a right angle to each other. I can't explain it very well, but you might like to see the DVD. Cheers Luvsablue and Beckie the Bluey, Victoria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi TerraNik, I've got a DVD Of Richard Curtis training his young dog for heelwork to music called "Puppy to Performance" His website: www.k9freestyle.co.uk I think it would be helpful for increasing the dog's backend awareness. In the DVD he also does dog keeping front position so dog is sidestepping while he sidesteps; they are at a right angle to each other. I can't explain it very well, but you might like to see the DVD. Cheers Luvsablue and Beckie the Bluey, Victoria That's ok... My dogs can do all that stuff already. I'm not into dancing with dogs though. I was just trying to think of a competition application for both side heeling. The OP might find it helpful though. We already do enough to keep us suitably busy! (ie. All other eligible sports except HTM and DWD!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi TerraNik, I've got a DVD Of Richard Curtis training his young dog for heelwork to music called "Puppy to Performance" His website: www.k9freestyle.co.uk I think it would be helpful for increasing the dog's backend awareness. In the DVD he also does dog keeping front position so dog is sidestepping while he sidesteps; they are at a right angle to each other. I can't explain it very well, but you might like to see the DVD. Cheers Luvsablue and Beckie the Bluey, Victoria That's ok... My dogs can do all that stuff already. I'm not into dancing with dogs though. I was just trying to think of a competition application for both side heeling. The OP might find it helpful though. We already do enough to keep us suitably busy! (ie. All other eligible sports except HTM and DWD!) I'm not into dancing with dogs, either, though it can be fun to watch other people doing it. But I think we'll train wrong-side heeling anyway just for fun. It can't much hurt, and I think it will be good for her little brain (and her neck). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi Staranais, I do it because I have two dogs. Another reason is that one is aggressive, so sometimes it is better to heel her on the right if we're passing someone with a dog on the other side, just an extra margin of safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Nothing wrong with off side heeling and no, it's not used in Rally. However in reference to a sore neck, I personally have issues with any dog heeling that has it's head twisted to look up at an unnatural position. There are no benefits to this sort of heeling on either side in my opinion. It doesn't make the dog more focused or attentive contrary to what some may preach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I heel on both sides. I use watch for the left and side for the right. She hasn't gotten confused yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Being a DWD & HTM competitor I teach both left & right side heeling as well as a whole heap of other heel positions. Any of the DWD/HTM teaching videos like those from Richard Curtis (as someone mentioned), Mary Ray, Atilla etc will all have sections on right side (& other position) heeling, but to be honest it's quite easy, you teach them in exactly the same qway that you teach traditional heeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Hi Staranais, I do it because I have two dogs. Another reason is that one is aggressive, so sometimes it is better to heel her on the right if we're passing someone with a dog on the other side, just an extra margin of safety. Are you "STILL" working on that aggression problem Aidan :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) Hi Staranais, I do it because I have two dogs. Another reason is that one is aggressive, so sometimes it is better to heel her on the right if we're passing someone with a dog on the other side, just an extra margin of safety. Are you "STILL" working on that aggression problem Aidan :D What on earth are you talking about? I can heel my dog past other dogs, I am just sensible about it and put her on the other side if appropriate. Your comment is highly inappropriate and ignorant of any facts. Why you would seek to discredit me is unfathomable, I have made no personal attack on you. I am not the first trainer that you have tried to discredit on this forum, what is your agenda? Edited November 1, 2009 by Aidan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 1, 2009 Author Share Posted November 1, 2009 Hi Staranais, I do it because I have two dogs. Another reason is that one is aggressive, so sometimes it is better to heel her on the right if we're passing someone with a dog on the other side, just an extra margin of safety. Are you "STILL" working on that aggression problem Aidan :D What on earth are you talking about? I can heel my dog past other dogs, I am just sensible about it and put her on the other side if appropriate. Your comment is highly inappropriate and ignorant of any facts. Why you would seek to discredit me is unfathomable, I have made no personal attack on you. I am not the first trainer that you have tried to discredit on this forum, what is your agenda? I don't know the history of the dispute, but I do know aggression isn't always easily or readily cured, no matter what techniques are used. Aggression isn't aggression isn't aggression. Sometimes being able to heel a previously aggressive dog past other dogs while retaining that dog's focus is a huge achievement. I know how proud I was when I was able to work my old stafford offleash in obedience competitions, given his history of extreme dog aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I don't know the history of the dispute, but I do know aggression isn't always easily or readily cured, no matter what techniques are used. Thankyou, Staranais, that was a very balanced and pragmatic overview of an issue with treating dog aggression. As far as I know there is no significant history of dispute, we had a discussion once where we disagreed on one point. Diablo asserted that dogs chose to disobey and be corrected, I disagreed making certain that I was not arguing against Diablo's choice of training methods and even explicitly stating that Diablo sounded very competent with his methods. This happened immediately after he slandered Mark Singer, so perhaps I should not have been so generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think it is always wise to be careful with a dog that has had an issue with aggression previously. No use undoing years or months of good work in a few moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think Diablo has aggression issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Hi Staranais, I do it because I have two dogs. Another reason is that one is aggressive, so sometimes it is better to heel her on the right if we're passing someone with a dog on the other side, just an extra margin of safety. Are you "STILL" working on that aggression problem Aidan What on earth are you talking about? I can heel my dog past other dogs, I am just sensible about it and put her on the other side if appropriate. Your comment is highly inappropriate and ignorant of any facts. Why you would seek to discredit me is unfathomable, I have made no personal attack on you. I am not the first trainer that you have tried to discredit on this forum, what is your agenda? Aidan, I asked a simple question in response to what you wrote given that is was some time ago you told us about your GSD's aggression, a Von Forell working line bitch by memory???. Obviously the situation hasn't been resolved with a necessity to provide saftey margins between your dog and others according to what you wrote???. I agree that it is being sensible to provide a margin with a dog that is not under full control and can't be trusted, I commend your responsible action where aggression is involved. I was actually surprised given your training passion and expertise that the aggression issue remained a relevent factor in your dog's present behaviour, or if you were speaking about it's former behaviour which inspired me to ask the question to get the facts. Regarding appropriatness of the question, I am mystified as to your interpretation. I have a lot of interest in your training methods on the "purely positive", personally I reserve my opinion if such methods can result in a reliable enough dog to pass Schutzhund testing and title a GSD in extreme obedience trials, and therefore have an interest in the control you have attained in a high level working dog trained with your methods. We can theorise training methods for ever Aidan but the proof is in the performance and results is what counts with me. Edited November 2, 2009 by Diablo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) I think Diablo has aggression issues. Why is that Corvus??? Edited November 2, 2009 by Diablo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 If aggression doesn't remain a relevant factor in a working-line GSDs behaviour at any time you would have to wonder if the earth was still spinning. Never mind the myriad of different factors involved in dog behaviour, let alone the behaviour of dogs who have inherently lower thresholds and who would find themselves in trouble with the authorities for the most minor infraction simply because of their breed's reputation. But I promise you, as soon as I effect the "complete cure" of her aggression that you seem to think is reasonable, I'll start to work on that cure for cancer too. I don't know whether to be flattered that you think I'm capable of this, or stunned that you think you are capable of this. Not that I have ever claimed to be "purely positive", but if you are unaware that dogs are passing Schutzhund and obedience tests using those methods, then you must have been living under a rock. Efficacy is no longer the question, rather the level of environmental control and self-discipline that you are willing to demonstrate is the big question and I would begrudge no-one the choice to go whichever way they chose. My dog regularly walks with other dogs, some of which I know she would love to have a crack at. She has a considerable amount of freedom on these walks, as much as I am willing to give her. More than a lot of sport dogs that I know of. I trust her more than I trust the unknown dogs that we might pass, but you and I know that the GSD will always get the blame. I also have a young family, two businesses, play three types of rugby, train daily for powerlifting, and spend too much time here. I train far less than most people here, I am sure of that. So when you decide to ask this question on a public forum, OFF TOPIC, hijacking someone else's thread, complete with the "eek" emoticon and without any qualification whatsoever - I think I am right in assuming that you are just stirring up trouble. Combine this with your public cheap shot at Mark Singer's reputation recently, and I am starting to form a picture. Don't play coy with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I think Diablo has aggression issues. :D Why is that Corvus??? Seemed like a bit of an unnecessarily aggressive post to me. But I used the smiley wink! So don't take me too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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