General Anaesthetics

[Stitch]

Do some dogs have problems having a general anaesthetic moreso than others?

I was told that certain breeds eg greyhounds that do not have much in the way of body fat have to be given different doses??

If this is the case, do you have to advise the vet prior to the anaesthetic being given??

Can anyone throw more light on this subject please??

[~Anne~]

Yes, body fat and body weight come into the equation. So does the surgery required, the type of dog i.e brachy breeds such as the Pug and British Bulldog.

Your Vet went through years of study to know the difference. However, having said that there are Vets who are not overly experienced with breeds such as Pugs and their particualr problems with different anesthetics.

Talk to your Vet to ease your mind. He's a professional and will know what he is doing.

[Guest Shadowboxer]

Boxers should never be given the pre-anaesthetic tranquilliser Acepromazine.

[office bitch]

Sighthounds are affected by some general anaesthetics, also Belgian Shepherds. Don't know about other breeds. My vet gives dogs a sedative prior to surgery and I have found that this affects my border collie, he is semi-comatose for at least a day post surgery.

[Clyde]

Also some Malamutes and Huskys don't come out of anaesthetics well at all. I've seen some heart rendering recoveries with this breed. Banging heads against walls from thrashing until bleeding etc....

[Akitaowner]

i know akitas do not like anaethetics - well as to say they are v sensitive to them and require only a tiny amount in relation to their body size....i guess u just need to make sure ur vet knows the breed and a gentle reminder during any conversation about operations needed or such prob wouldnt hurt...

hope nothing is wrong??

[Rappie]

There aren't a great deal of obvious breed characteristics, but a lot of individual characteristics that are common amongst members of the same breed. Sight hounds don't have a lot of body fat, that's true, but dealing with them is like dealing with any other lean dog. If you give them an incremental dose of an induction agent, the don't have enough fat to redistribute it before metabolism they stay awake. Later, after it begins to metabolise they get a hefty dose of it all at once. Due consideration to choice of drug, administration and an individual assessment of the patient should make things easier for the vet.

Common sense should prevail when anaesthetising pugs - they just need some anaesthesia TLC and they usually cope well. I would say that the being zonked out for a day or so after an anaesthetic has a lot to do with the choice of drug and the dose it is given at.

[bommy]

When we had Molly go under GA to have some lumps removed the vet gave us a choice of two anesthetics, one was cheaper but harsher on their systems, we went the more expensive & didnt have any problems.

Sorry cant offer any other info.

Jacqui

[Bouledogue Français]

Boxers should never be given the pre-anaesthetic tranquilliser Acepromazine.

Neither should Frenchies.

I think we all know the Brachy breeds require a little extra care, I always make sure the vet I am going to has had experience with Brachy breeds and anaesthetics. If not I dont go there.

Frenchies can be prone to obstructions of the airways after the tube has been removed. They should be watched closely after the tube is taken out, and until they are fully conscious and able to stand.

Length of tube should also be measured as they have short necks, you have to be carful that the tube isnt passed too far down.

Vets may have years of experience but not with your particular breed. Don't forget they are only human and can/do make mistakes. ( Flame suit on LOL )

Our breed has a letter we take to the vet, explains all about the breed and problems with them and sedating/anaesthetics etc etc..

Maybe something like that to hand to your vet ( if you have one of these breeds that are sensitive ) if you are unsure?? If the vet doesnt like it, go else where.

[Stitch]

Thanks guys - I like to have as much info as I can as I have found that not all vets are as experienced as you might hope!

Just getting prepared in case GA is required.

[Bouledogue Français]

I like to have as much info as I can as I have found that not all vets are as experienced as you might hope! 

You got that right!

[fifi]

as mentioned the sight hounds are hypersensitive to anaesthesia, and not all vets are aware of the body fat/density as opposed to the usual per KG dosage. we always remind our vets that the wolfies do not metabolise ACP or other pre-meds for some time, so we do not allow them to use premeds on ours. We insist on the Diprovan family for intravenus induction, rather than the Pentothal type. Wolfies can also suffer prolonged recovery, so our vet is very light with the gaseous anaesthesia ie; Halothane & NO2.

We sound like a vet's nightmare dont we?!! but I'm a vet nurse, and we finally have a vet that is sympathetic to our needs, after having one that thought we were fussy idiots, but kept losing dogs to 'unknown' deaths on the table & post op 'complications', we soon took our dogs from his practice! Most good vets are aware, but you could always take a print out of your breed specific contra-indications or issues.

fifi

[Rappie]

Speed of recovery reflects a lot of different factors, not just the "quality" of the anaesthesia.

I just spent the day anaesthetising pound dogs for desexing, some bouncy patients, some quiet. We were aiming to give them sufficient sedation and analgesia in the premed to allow them to sleep their surgery off in peace and comfort. They were being speyed and castrated by student surgeons, so would obviously be a little more uncomfortable than with an experienced surgeon.

Premed adds to the anaesthesia - using ACP often just prolongs the sleeping time after the procedure, but there's plenty of other options that aren't phenothiazines. Crash inductions, either with gas or an IV induction agents generally go ok but often have particularly rough recoveries. Propofol (which is a drug, not a family) and Alfaxan can be used as a sole agent for anaesthesia or induction but the recoveries aren't at all pretty a lot of the time. Providing a balanced anaesthesia is both very important and effective. Premeds will reduce the amount of induction agent used generally, and pre-emptive analgesia keeps patients a lot more comfortable.

As far as I'm concerned pain relief and "better" anaesthetics shouldn't be a choice that the owners have to make - the vets should be able to make an educated choice about the most appropriate protocol for each individual patient. Of course, life doesn't always work that way

[Greytmate]

I don't know much about anaesthetics, but I do know that greyhounds can easily die if given the wrong one.

I only take the GAP dogs to a few select vets for desexing, they know what to give.

The other day, I had to take a greyhound for some emergency stitching on a Sunday to a normal pet vet, instead of a greyhound vet. I was a bit worried about whether the vet knew to give the right anaesthetic. I asked him if he knew about the problems greys have under anaesthesia, and he didn't seem really happy about me asking. He just said he knew what to give.

Rappie, are you taught about greyhounds at vet school? I have heard a few stories of greyhounds dying on the table through the wrong anaesthetic, and I wonder if some vets learn by trial and error. Should I have a written sheet about greyhounds that I give to the vet if something like this comes up again?

[Jintanut]

Im GA paranoid now, my sisters dog died recently and it was GA related. He was a big mastiff, 3 yr old boy who died because of too much anestetic, he was just having a few lumps removed from his leg.

Im afraid of Jinta going under now, how do you know if your vets got a good reputation regarding animals and gen.anestetics??

she might need a knee operation soonish...

Im really arfaid of the GA now.

[Rappie]

Greytmate,

We do go over the common breed specific problems in our anaesthesia course (which is a 2 semester course) including greyhounds / sight hound and barbiturates and boxers with ACP and brachycephalic breed specific problems. We also spend a considerable amount on time covering anaesthesia in compromised patients such as those with liver, kidney, respiratory or heart failure.

Even if we didn't remember the details specifically I'd say that most people in my year would remember that there was something "funky" associated with a breed and would look it up. We'd also be familiar with the pharmacology of the drugs that we are using so even if we didn't remember about greyhounds specificially, it could be expected that thiopentone would be a bad choice in a skinny dog due to the distribution in fat and potential for prolonged metabolism (which gives the "hangover" effect).

The other thing that might be worth mentioning, and I don't intend it to be in defence of anyone......part of how some vets approach anaesthesia may be related to when they graduated. Suggested anaesthetic protocols are always changing and have changed significantly over the last 10 years particularly - some vets don't know, don't care or aren't brave enough to move out of their comfort zone and continue on with the "not quite right" drugs and protocols which nearly always work for them.

There is a degree of trial and error - but it should be based on educated decisions. In most cases the variances will be in dose rates - there shouldn't be a whole lot of guess work about the drug choice - but it can be complicated to balance analgesia with sedation. Experience goes a long way to improving the ability to make decisions - but its no substitute for thinking things through and making sure that your plan is appropriate.

I think you are entitled to ask your vet what they would use to anaesthetise your dog - and also ask questions if you think they are warranted. There shouldn't be anything to hide. I'd also say that you are entitled to request a certain protocol, but then it is also up to the vet to decided a) whether they think it is appropriate and b) whether they are comfortable using it. I don't know how you find out about anaesthetic deaths - I think the last patient we lost at work was a mouse and that was at least a year ago - but my boss is conservative with his plans and very concious of potential problems.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Rappie

[Greytmate]

Thank you Rappie