Jackpots

[leopuppy04]

Interesting topic that was discussed at the recent APDT conference in Syd.

It was said that through research they found that Jackpots increased the dogs motivation to learn and attempt harder BUT actually had no effects on the speed at which the dog learnt an exercise

Also interesting (or perhaps not so much?!) that intermittent reinforcement (including with clickers and following up with a treat) produced an animal that will persist at behaviours and try for longer before burning out

Edited October 28, 2009 by leopuppy04

[leopuppy04]

I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that. :D

Hmmm, I can't say I've found that. But then again, after a jackpot, I often switch exercises and work on something else right away. Usually something she really likes, like between the legs heeling.

I think that this would more likely happen with 'poor' use or overuse of jackpots - so the dog begins to 'expect' the larger reward, or it's become too reiable as to when the dog will get the jackpot

Definitely a one at a time jackpotter here too

[corvus]

I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that.

Hmmm, I can't say I've found that. But then again, after a jackpot, I often switch exercises and work on something else right away. Usually something she really likes, like between the legs heeling.

I think that this would more likely happen with 'poor' use or overuse of jackpots - so the dog begins to 'expect' the larger reward, or it's become too reiable as to when the dog will get the jackpot

Yes, that was the gist that I got.

LP, when you said intermittent reinforcement including with clickers and following up with treats, did you mean not rewarding every time you click?

[leopuppy04]

I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that. :D

Hmmm, I can't say I've found that. But then again, after a jackpot, I often switch exercises and work on something else right away. Usually something she really likes, like between the legs heeling.

I think that this would more likely happen with 'poor' use or overuse of jackpots - so the dog begins to 'expect' the larger reward, or it's become too reiable as to when the dog will get the jackpot

Yes, that was the gist that I got.

LP, when you said intermittent reinforcement including with clickers and following up with treats, did you mean not rewarding every time you click?

Yup - not sure what I think though :D. I haven't made up my mind yet

[dogdude]

I have always used a whole jackpot food reward for Oscar, for previously learned exercises. I always completely end the exercise after jackpotting, and only use it for motivation/drive.

[Erny]

You mean like as in the "TOT", dogdude?

I've never thought or saw that as "Jackpotting" and still don't, if that's what you mean.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

One by one jackpotting is said to give the same type of 'rush' to a dog that we humans get when we win a jackpot at the pokies. The coins usually fall from the machine one by one in quick succession. The sound of the coins dropping in succession have been found to cause a sort of endorphin rush (feel good) feeling which results in a psychological 'high'. I believe the dogs would get the same sort of feeling.

I'm not sure if winning jackpots at the pokies would make me a better pokies player, but it would certainly keep me addicted and wanting more.

[dogdude]

You mean like as in the "TOT", dogdude?

I've never thought or saw that as "Jackpotting" and still don't, if that's what you mean.

Yes Ernie, like in TOT.

What do you class TOT style rewarding?

[Staranais]

You mean like as in the "TOT", dogdude?

I've never thought or saw that as "Jackpotting" and still don't, if that's what you mean.

Yes Ernie, like in TOT.

What do you class TOT style rewarding?

I'm not Erny, but to me, it's a jackpot when it's an unexpectedly big reward compared to rewards that the dog usually gets for doing that type of thing. So I wouldn't class tot as a jackpot, since the dog always gets about the same value reward.

I'm not sure if there's any official definition of jackpot, but that's what I've always understood by the term?

[Erny]

I'm not Erny, but to me, it's a jackpot when it's an unexpectedly big reward compared to rewards that the dog usually gets for doing that type of thing. So I wouldn't class tot as a jackpot, since the dog always gets about the same value reward.

;) .... well you might as well be, 'cause that's the answer I would have given. And probably worded better and more succinctly than I. You're good at that .

Edited October 28, 2009 by Erny

[JulesP]

Some people let the dog know that the jackpot is there, say outside the ring. This is where IMO it sort of becomes like TOT.

[Staranais]

.... well you might as well be, 'cause that's the answer I would have given. And probably worded better and more succinctly than I. You're good at that .

LOL, thanks.

JulesP, you can do that with a regular reward too. I did a few club level obedience trials with my old boy, and always left the toy right out side the ropes. He knew from our training that he had to focus on me to be released to it, just like in tot. But that wasn't a jackpot (IMO), it was just the reward he always got for doing obedience.

[JulesP]

The people I have seen doing it like this are not using just a normal treat. The dog often gets to scoff the whole container of treats. I seem to remember dogdude having a tin of dog food as a jackpot. Can't say I have seen many people using a whole tin of food as a normal treat!

[dogdude]

I'm not Erny, but to me, it's a jackpot when it's an unexpectedly big reward compared to rewards that the dog usually gets for doing that type of thing. So I wouldn't class tot as a jackpot, since the dog always gets about the same value reward.

I'm not sure if there's any official definition of jackpot, but that's what I've always understood by the term?

So,.......If you went down to the pokies every day, and were lucky enough to "hit the jackpot",........It wouldn't be a jackpot??

[huski]

I don't really use jackpots much, I prefer to build drive by rewarding more frequently but not in a jackpot style of, say, feeding ten treats in a row as a single reward. I find with Daisy that the adrenaline rush she gets from working in drive has started to become as much of a reward as eating the actual food.

But I would use the TOT type method of releasing the dog to one big reward, like a container of food.

Edited October 28, 2009 by huski

[m-j]

Dogs are definately very aware of quantity (but quality is a better motivator) I use jackpots in a large lump to denote the end of a behaviour taught in increments ( in the learning stage) In my mind (and I hoping the dogs) they will want to do the finished product again with fewer increments.

I also jackpot if the dog is having trouble understanding what I want (and starting to shut down on me) and I have had to go back in training and I get close to the increment I was at when I went back and I then end the training session, all to build the dogs motivation to try again next time. Not really sure if it works for the dog as I've always done it ( so have nothing to compare it to) maybe they would try again just as keenly without the jackpot but it helps my frustration/guilt from pushing the dog too far, too fast.

I also jackpot when stringing exercises together.

cheers

M-J

[corvus]

LP, when you said intermittent reinforcement including with clickers and following up with treats, did you mean not rewarding every time you click?

Yup - not sure what I think though . I haven't made up my mind yet

A better question is do you really want a dog that is more persistant? On the one hand it's useful if you're trying to teach something difficult, and I guess it would make for a forgiving dog if you make some mistakes, but on the other hand, I'm guessing it works both ways and you might have more trouble extinguishing behaviour?

[Staranais]

I'm not Erny, but to me, it's a jackpot when it's an unexpectedly big reward compared to rewards that the dog usually gets for doing that type of thing. So I wouldn't class tot as a jackpot, since the dog always gets about the same value reward.

I'm not sure if there's any official definition of jackpot, but that's what I've always understood by the term?

So,.......If you went down to the pokies every day, and were lucky enough to "hit the jackpot",........It wouldn't be a jackpot??

If you started to expect it was going to happen, then I guess it wouldn't be a jackpot. If you were still suprised and gratified every time it happened, then I think it would still be a jackpot. I think it's all about expectation.

If my dog knows I've got a hamburger in my pocket so she recalls for me, IMO that's not a jackpot, it's just a big reward. If she's expecting something like a piece of kibble when she recalls, and I whip out a hamburger, then to me, that's a jackpot, because it's suprisingly larger than her expectation.

But like I say, I don't know if there's any official dog training definition of jackpot anywhere! That's just how I've heard the term always used, and always used it myself. Perhaps someone's who has done the Australian or Delta dog trainers courses would know?

[~*Shell*~]

I use jackpots with Zero occasionally, especially when we're working on something we're having problems with that week. This week it's stay and turning in heel. It just increases his motivation to keep up with me when he's working and makes it more likely he'll give me the behaviour I want. It seems to really work for him. I don't give it to him everytime but the second he gets it for the first time (for example, the first time he stayed for 30 seconds), i will jackpot that and then jackpot it a few more times before lessening the quantity. After that, he only gets jackpotted occasionally for the same behaviour, but i might only ask him to sit and stay for 10 seconds before i return to him and jackpot that so he never knows when he'll get a jackpot and when he won't.

I used the same technique when I was training his dumbell retrieval and he just loves retrieving now. He doesn't seem to understand the behaviour I want him to perform any faster but he does have a whole lot more motivation to perform it when he does get it.