corvus Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Do you use jackpots? Why/why not? How often? How big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Yep. I jackpot by giving treats in rapid succession (one by one, not just given in a handful). Usually about 5-10 treats. I use them when I want to: a) increase motivation (jackpot used randomly) b) signal that what they did was closer than the other things they have been doing. This works really, really well for Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) I jackpot ALOT when training for dog sports and want them in high drive. For Bluey it is a cuddle- food for a good effort, cuddle when he has done the whole sequence correctly, he like food but a hug just makes him work all the harder! For Abby and Safire it is treats given quickly like Nik- when she has improved what she is doing or when she has done something correctly after having difficulty. If I have them in a lower drive environment I rarely jackpot as they can go a bit loopy with it and it takes them a little while to settle down. Edited October 27, 2009 by woofenpup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Yup, I often use a jackpot when shaping a new behaviour, when she's made a big leap towards what I want. I do it because I want to mark that behaviour is really good, so she remembers it! I think it helps improve her understanding. It's just another way to communicate - a click or mark says what she did was good, a jackpot says what she did was really good. For a jackpot I I use lots and lots of excited praise while giving several treats fed quickly in succession. Sometimes even multiple click/treats if she remains in the correct position. Example, perch work, walking her hind quarters round towards heel position. She takes a step, c/t. She takes a step, c/t. She takes 3 steps and ends up in heel position - jackpot! Then start again. Other times I may use big rewards (e.g. a recall away from a big distraction gets either a drive reward or lots of praise/successive treats, depending on what word I used to recall her), but that's not really a jackpot IMO, it's just reinforcing an already learned behaviour and teaching her it's always worth coming back. I wouldn't regard that as a jackpot as it doesn't aid her understanding of the recall, just improves her motivation to keep recalling in future. So I guess it all depends exactly what you mean by "jackpot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that. I use jackpots infrequently, usually just a bit of a fuss and a couple of extra treats one at a time. I use them infrequently because... I'm not very good yet. I assume. I don't use them with the hare because he never hangs around long enough to get one. Training for him has got to be a low key affair. Erik gets them the first couple of times he completes something. Kivi gets them more intermittently and randomly. Kivi needs lots of motivation, but Erik will work just for the fun of it, so I guess a jackpot means different things for them. For Kivi, it means it's worth his while sticking with it, and for Erik it means he just nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that. Hmmm, I can't say I've found that. But then again, after a jackpot, I often switch exercises and work on something else right away. Usually something she really likes, like between the legs heeling. Of if I want to keep training the same exercise, then I stop the exercise for a few seconds after the jackpot, then ask her if she wants to play again (builds frustration a little bit, I guess). Perhaps if you just keep on going after the jackpot it would cause a slump, since the dog would be disappointed he just got a regular reward not a jackpot? Perhaps that is what he does? I find if we have a little break, she seems to be excited that we are going to keep training, rather than disappointed it's just a "regular" c/t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsablue Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='Staranais' date='28th Oct 2009 - 07: So I guess it all depends exactly what you mean by "jackpot". I think a jackpot is just as in gambling. Entirely unpredictable, and random, except we (unlike the real poker machines) make sure the dog doesn't use up all its "cash" (motivation, mental energy) before "winning". I use the idea to improve concentration and to lift the dog's interest in the activity. Random mini rewards, and a jackpot at least once every session. Surprise for the dog, but linked to some extra good work, sometimes merely a very good finish, or a beautiful bit of attentive watching. I have seen her regain interest in an exercise by randomly rewarding and continue to be interested in it for many sessions after a jackpot was included. That's how they trap the gamblers!!! Luvsablue Victoria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Not for the dog's sake, but it can sometimes demonstrate to a person that their dog just did something really cool, and at other times it just makes me feel good to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 At my instructor course we had a talk by Peta Clarke and she spoke about jackpots... She's looked into the subject and all of the studies show that it is only useful to motivate the dog - it doesn't actually 'capture' the better behaviour. But, like me, she says that she uses them anyway because it makes her feel better! And hey, it can't hurt!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 If I consider something good enough to earn a jackpot then I tend to finish the training session then. I save jackpots for super special things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) If I consider something good enough to earn a jackpot then I tend to finish the training session then. I save jackpots for super special things. I'm by what you've said here, JulesP. If you think something's good enough to earn a jackpot, you finish the training session instead of giving the jackpot? But what if your dog is enjoying the training (which I like to think he/she is)? When, then, would you consider something to be "super special" if there are other things that are good enough to earn a jackpot (but don't deliver it). I'm only curious - perhaps I am mis-reading. Edited October 28, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 At my instructor course we had a talk by Peta Clarke and she spoke about jackpots... She's looked into the subject and all of the studies show that it is only useful to motivate the dog - it doesn't actually 'capture' the better behaviour. But, like me, she says that she uses them anyway because it makes her feel better! And hey, it can't hurt!! I think it carries the capacity to heighten the reward value and hence the reinforcement. Combine not only that the dog's reward continues for longer, but the fairly natural accompaniment of the joy/pleasure in the handler's face and voice whilst delivering the 'jackpot'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 If I consider something good enough to earn a jackpot then I tend to finish the training session then. I save jackpots for super special things. I'm by what you've said here, JulesP. If you think something's good enough to earn a jackpot, you finish the training session instead of giving the jackpot? But what if your dog is enjoying the training (which I like to think he/she is). When, then, would you consider something to be "super special" if there are other things that are good enough to earn a jackpot (but don't deliver it). I'm only curious - perhaps I am mis-reading. I think she means to jackpot and then that's the end of the session? That's how I read it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yep jackpot and then finish training. And I don't mean finish training and shove them away. At home it is finish training and get dinner. Out it is finish training and then get patted lots and play etc. I really want the work prior to the jackpot to stick in their minds. I guess I do it like this because this is what I did when riding. Get something super from horse and immediately get off and feed horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ahhh ... ok. Thanks, and sorry for misinterpreting. No wonder it didn't make sense to me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think it carries the capacity to heighten the reward value and hence the reinforcement. Combine not only that the dog's reward continues for longer, but the fairly natural accompaniment of the joy/pleasure in the handler's face and voice whilst delivering the 'jackpot'. That's the reasoning behind the method Leslie Nelson uses to deliver rewards to dogs that have just recalled nicely. She calls it "fine dining". You can give them a lump of meat, which is all well and good but it will be gone in a second, or you can crouch in front of them and break the meat up into little pieces and feed them one at a time, cooing over how wonderful your dog is, and that can take ten seconds or more. She thinks it feels like a bigger reward to the dog, even if it's the same amount of meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think it carries the capacity to heighten the reward value and hence the reinforcement. Combine not only that the dog's reward continues for longer, but the fairly natural accompaniment of the joy/pleasure in the handler's face and voice whilst delivering the 'jackpot'. That's the reasoning behind the method Leslie Nelson uses to deliver rewards to dogs that have just recalled nicely. She calls it "fine dining". You can give them a lump of meat, which is all well and good but it will be gone in a second, or you can crouch in front of them and break the meat up into little pieces and feed them one at a time, cooing over how wonderful your dog is, and that can take ten seconds or more. She thinks it feels like a bigger reward to the dog, even if it's the same amount of meat. That's exactly why I don't give a jackpot as a "pile" of treats. I always give one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 That's exactly why I don't give a jackpot as a "pile" of treats. I always give one at a time. Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vehs Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yes I give them, and I was taught to give lots of little bits one at a time he gets them when he makes a break through or does something perfectly - and depending how things are going/how long we've been practising I will either do a few more 'perfect' tricks or end after that jackpot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ditto to the one at a time jackpot brigade I think they really help not just the dog but also the owners ability to recognise improvements in the dogs work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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