I Was Just Completely Disobeyed..

[Animal House]

Visually by looking down on the dog, staring at the dog or making yourself appear bigger...pretending to 'rush' the dog and then walk the other way

Vocally by growling

Physically by scruffing, putting the dog on its back, standing over the dog, pushing,putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

But none of these things would encourage a dog to recall, if anything they would discourage it, a lot!

Very dangerous advice Heidii, and a good way to (potentially) get your face ripped open.

These are not things you recommend over the internet to anyone, let alone your average dog owner.

If things are that bad in your relationship with your dog, get a behaviourist in to assess the dog in the home.

[persephone]

These are not things you recommend over the internet to anyone, let alone your average dog owner.

*nods*

[Staranais]

putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

Oh my goodness, I missed that. If you tried that at my house, I think you'd be looking for your lips.

My pup would let me put my mouth over her muzzle, if I wanted to, because she already trusts and respects me. If someone she didn't already trust or respect tried putting their mouth on her muzzle in order to intimidate her, they'd probably end up with a face full of holes. And serve them right, I say.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Staranais

[corvus]

Ah, I realise perhaps huski was talking about respect through trust.

I concede that that's a fair interpretation. In the context of this thread, the incident was over a contest. Whenever there is contest there is a winner and a loser. The winner in a social species is often the one that behaves dominantly as a signal to the other individual that they are prepared to settle this with violence if need be. Hence, respect through intimidation.

Trust is a little more complicated to me, and is more likely to avoid contest in the first place. However, some dogs are very confident and stubborn and I believe that natural personality has more impact on whether a contest will arise than how much each party trusts one another. Erik trusts Kivi implicitly, but all bets are off when he wants something.

[Heidii]

Visually by looking down on the dog, staring at the dog or making yourself appear bigger...pretending to 'rush' the dog and then walk the other way

Vocally by growling

Physically by scruffing, putting the dog on its back, standing over the dog, pushing,putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

But none of these things would encourage a dog to recall, if anything they would discourage it, a lot!

Very dangerous advice Heidii, and a good way to (potentially) get your face ripped open.

These are not things you recommend over the internet to anyone, let alone your average dog owner.

If things are that bad in your relationship with your dog, get a behaviourist in to assess the dog in the home.

I didnt recommend it.....Huski asked me a question, i answered it. I wouldnt expect an inexperience person to do this with a dog they dont know very well.

Huski also said "To me, respect is not something that can be gained through intimidation or dominance. You can't force or scare a dog into respecting you"...i was just prooving to her that is not the case.

Putting your mouth over your dogs muzzel is something that can be done to reienforce respect from your dog, one that you trust and one that trusts you....dont take this out of context....i also wouldnt expect anyone to do this to a dog that is trying to bite them, like DAH!

Edited October 28, 2009 by Heidii

[poodlefan]

Dogs don't understand benevolence, compassion, wisdom, or experience (there's contention about experience, but that's another topic)- the things that humans value and respect.

Most of those attributes aren't behaviours.. they influence them.

Dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle.. the basis of all operant conditioning training. Desireable behaviours that are rewarded will increase in frequency. That's how 'reward' based training works. That's how recall training works.. you condition the dog to the point where it responds to the recall without thinking.

I don't believe in confrontations with an animal capable of doing you serious damage. We got the allegedly bigger brain for a reason. We can think past the immediate behaviour and develop programs of training to modify the attitude that produced it.

Heidi, I don't have loose skin, protective fur, a head that can take a direct kick from a buffalo and survive or huge canines. I'm hardly going to use inter species dominance techniques on another species when I can use safer ones.

Put your face near a pissed off or very dominant dog and ask for battle and sometimes that's exactly what you're going to get. You will lose. Dominance and intimidation keeps many a facial reconstruction surgeon in new BMWs.

Why confront and intimidate when we can train to establish bonds of trust and respect. Respect is the product of a training process.

You don't have to assault a dog to gain its respect.. and that is what some of the recommendations here are IMO.

Edited October 28, 2009 by poodlefan

[Heidii]

Dogs don't understand benevolence, compassion, wisdom, or experience (there's contention about experience, but that's another topic)- the things that humans value and respect.

Most of those attributes aren't behaviours.. they influence them.

Dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle.. the basis of all operant conditioning training. Desireable behaviours that are rewarded will increase in frequency. That's how 'reward' based training works. That's how recall training works.. you condition the dog to the point where it responds to the recall without thinking.

Heidi, I don't have loose skin, protective fur, a head that can take a direct kick from a buffalo and survive or huge canines. I'm hardly going to use inter species dominance techniques on another species when I can use safer ones.

Put your face near a pissed off or very dominant dog and ask for battle and sometimes that's exactly what you're going to get. You will lose. Dominance and intimidation keeps many a facial reconstruction surgeon in new BMWs.

Why confront and intimidate when we can train to establish bonds of trust and respect. Respect is the product of a training process.

You don't have to assault a dog to gain its respect.. and that is what some of the recommendations here are IMO.

I didnt tell anyone to go and put their face near a pissed off dog...as i said before Huski made a statement and i went againest it, i even had pictures to back me up!

Yes dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle and that is, if they are not apart of this pack and dont follow then they are left by myself without any food...being part of a pack is a reward...and that means listening to your pack leader and a pack leader shows dominance and reinforces it by intimidating all the other dogs!

I dont assult by dog, i dont phycially hurt my dog at all....it all about INTIMIDATION! and i'll have to say it again, ITS NOT RECOMMENDED TO DO TO AN AGRESSIVE DOG THAT HAS ISSUES, i have built up this type of relationship with my dog since he was 8 weeks

Can i ask how you would gain respect from your dog?...

Edited October 28, 2009 by Heidii

[Staranais]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

I'm interested in that too.

[poodlefan]

I didnt tell anyone to go and put their face near a pissed off dog...as i said before Huski made a statement and i went againest it, i even had pictures to back me up!

Yes dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle and that is, if they are not apart of this pack and dont follow then they are left by myself without any food...being part of a pack is a reward...and that means listening to your pack leader and a pack leader shows dominance and reinforces it by intimidating all the other dogs!

I dont assult by dog, i dont phycially hurt my dog at all....it all about INTIMIDATION! and i'll have to say it again, ITS NOT RECOMMENDED TO DO TO AN AGRESSIVE DOG THAT HAS ISSUES, i have built up this type of relationship with my dog since he was 8 weeks

You gave the advice without qualification in a thread where OP is having dominance issues with her dog and is asking for help.

Intimidation works on the principle of the threat that back it up. If you aren't prepared to follow through it doesn't work. Looks like you are suggesting that social isolation and starvation are what you use if the dog doesn't "follow" you?

Train your dog however you like Heidii but please be careful about how you advise others, especially those with dogs that are displaying threat behaviours.

I also suggest you do some more homework on wolf behaviour. True alphas rarely need to display threat or intimidation.. they do it all with a look or a body posture. All the bluster tends to come from the alpha wannabes.

Edited October 28, 2009 by poodlefan

[huski]

I didnt recommend it.....Huski asked me a question, i answered it. I wouldnt expect an inexperience person to do this with a dog they dont know very well.

Huski also said "To me, respect is not something that can be gained through intimidation or dominance. You can't force or scare a dog into respecting you"...i was just prooving to her that is not the case.

Putting your mouth over your dogs muzzel is something that can be done to reienforce respect from your dog, one that you trust and one that trusts you....dont take this out of context....i also wouldnt expect anyone to do this to a dog that is trying to bite them, like DAH!

Sorry but I just don't agree that pinning a dog to the ground, putting your mouth over their muzzle () or any of the other "techniques"you listed would build bonds of trust and respect. They encourage the dog te be submissive, fearful and intimidated. Not the same thing as respect IMO.

It's a fact that a true alpha does not need to alpha roll or pin other pack members to get them to submiss. They submiss without force. I would have to question why anyone would need to alpha roll their dog to get them to obey them.

Dogs don't understand benevolence, compassion, wisdom, or experience (there's contention about experience, but that's another topic)- the things that humans value and respect.

Most of those attributes aren't behaviours.. they influence them.

Dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle.. the basis of all operant conditioning training. Desireable behaviours that are rewarded will increase in frequency. That's how 'reward' based training works. That's how recall training works.. you condition the dog to the point where it responds to the recall without thinking.

I don't believe in confrontations with an animal capable of doing you serious damage. We got the allegedly bigger brain for a reason. We can think past the immediate behaviour and develop programs of training to modify the attitude that produced it.

Heidi, I don't have loose skin, protective fur, a head that can take a direct kick from a buffalo and survive or huge canines. I'm hardly going to use inter species dominance techniques on another species when I can use safer ones.

Put your face near a pissed off or very dominant dog and ask for battle and sometimes that's exactly what you're going to get. You will lose. Dominance and intimidation keeps many a facial reconstruction surgeon in new BMWs.

Why confront and intimidate when we can train to establish bonds of trust and respect. Respect is the product of a training process.

You don't have to assault a dog to gain its respect.. and that is what some of the recommendations here are IMO.

Well said PF, I totally agree

[Heidii]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

I'm interested in that too.

You dont watch national geographic, animal plant or have even watched the "wolf man"......obviously not.

here is a website on wolf communication - http://www.wolfweb.com/facts-communication.html

"Wolves use body language and facial expressions to communicate with each other. Dominant wolves will freely look other animals directly in the eye, this declares and reinforces their superior rank."

You tell me then, if this is not the case how do wolves communicate then????????

[poodlefan]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

I'm interested in that too.

You dont watch national geographic, animal plant or have even watched the "wolf man"......obviously not.

here is a website on wolf communication - http://www.wolfweb.com/facts-communication.html

"Wolves use body language and facial expressions to communicate with each other. Dominant wolves will freely look other animals directly in the eye, this declares and reinforces their superior rank."

You tell me then, if this is not the case how do wolves communicate then????????

So where's all the muzzle grabbing and intimidatory physical confrontation in that statement?

[Staranais]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

I'm interested in that too.

You dont watch national geographic, animal plant or have even watched the "wolf man"......obviously not.

here is a website on wolf communication - http://www.wolfweb.com/facts-communication.html

"Wolves use body language and facial expressions to communicate with each other. Dominant wolves will freely look other animals directly in the eye, this declares and reinforces their superior rank."

You tell me then, if this is not the case how do wolves communicate then????????

Ah, I see. Animal Planet. Sorry, but...

[Are You Serious Jo]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

I'm interested in that too.

You dont watch national geographic, animal plant or have even watched the "wolf man"......obviously not.

here is a website on wolf communication - http://www.wolfweb.com/facts-communication.html

"Wolves use body language and facial expressions to communicate with each other. Dominant wolves will freely look other animals directly in the eye, this declares and reinforces their superior rank."

You tell me then, if this is not the case how do wolves communicate then????????

Domestic dogs aren't wolves, they are wired up differently. Look up some studies of problem solving in dogs vs wolves, dogs are different in the way they think and interact with humans.

[Cosmolo]

Okay- here's my 2 cents..

I have and do scruff as a type of correction in certain situations with particular dogs and particular owners. I use it as a correction, not as a show of dominance and not as a partial alpha roll. Avoiding confrontation is important too, but once you're in one- never ever lose. That means we ahve to carefully select what techniques we give to what people as a poor selection with an owner who cannot carry it out effectively will make the problem worse AND will dent the owners confidence significantly.

This is precisely the reason why onine advice can be hazardous and why many people either call for a behaviourist OR recommend non confrontational techniques that are unlikely to land anyone in hot water.

I don't have a problem with scruffing as a correction with certain things but would suggest it with a dog already showing warning signs etc where you don't know the owner or the whole situation. There are better ways to correct if thats the path you take (and i think some dogs need a correction at some point with behaviours like this) and there are other exercises that must go in line with that which others have already mentioned. Its not just me who has to be able to do it either- so what if i can go through a tantrum with a scruffed dog- i don't live with the dogs i see so its not about me.

Dogs know we are not dogs.

[Heidii]

Domestic dogs aren't wolves, they are wired up differently. Look up some studies of problem solving in dogs vs wolves, dogs are different in the way they think and interact with humans.

Ok then you people totally disagree and think wolves are nothing like our dogs we have at home, they arnt born with the same instinct etc....they dont live in packs like wolves either, and they certainly dont communicate the same, they dont even insticivly know anything about pack hierarchy.....ooookkk

Domestic: Canis lupis familiaris

Wolf: Canis Lupis

Why do their scientific names state they are in the same family/genus and they are the same species????

Obviously their is no reason to keep debating this topic, you dont agree with the way i do this, fair enough, BUT NOW you even come up with statements saying dogs communicate differently from wolves to try and back yourself up....either your just being stubborn or your uneducated

[Are You Serious Jo]

Domestic dogs aren't wolves, they are wired up differently. Look up some studies of problem solving in dogs vs wolves, dogs are different in the way they think and interact with humans.

Ok then you people totally disagree and think wolves are nothing like our dogs we have at home, they arnt born with the same instinct etc....they dont live in packs like wolves either, and they certainly dont communicate the same, they dont even insticivly know anything about pack hierarchy.....ooookkk

Domestic: Canis lupis familiaris

Wolf: Canis Lupis

Why do their scientific names state they are in the same family/genus and they are the same species????

Obviously their is no reason to keep debating this topic, you dont agree with the way i do this, fair enough, BUT NOW you even come up with statements saying dogs communicate differently from wolves to try and back yourself up....either your just being stubborn or your uneducated

Actually, not uneducated, I research animal cognition, dogs included. Which is why I have said what I said, they are not wolves, there are behavioural differences. I did say they retain some instincts from their wild days but they respond differently to humans than wolves do. That is why I suggested you go look at some information on cognitive experiments with wolves and dogs, it will show you how they are different.

[poodlefan]

Domestic dogs aren't wolves, they are wired up differently. Look up some studies of problem solving in dogs vs wolves, dogs are different in the way they think and interact with humans.

Ok then you people totally disagree and think wolves are nothing like our dogs we have at home, they arnt born with the same instinct etc....they dont live in packs like wolves either, and they certainly dont communicate the same, they dont even insticivly know anything about pack hierarchy.....ooookkk

Domestic: Canis lupis familiaris

Wolf: Canis Lupis

Why do their scientific names state they are in the same family/genus and they are the same species????

Obviously their is no reason to keep debating this topic, you dont agree with the way i do this, fair enough, BUT NOW you even come up with statements saying dogs communicate differently from wolves to try and back yourself up....either your just being stubborn or your uneducated

No need for name calling Heidii just because people disagree with you.

Maybe some of us we've read and watched and thought about it. There are lots of studies about the impact of domestication and selective breeding on the domestic dog. We've changed their appearance (that affects their ability to communicate like wolves) we've changed their structure AND we've changed their temperaments. We've selected for less dominance AND for people focus rather than own species focus in some breeds.

Wolves tend to regard humans as either competiton, threats or prey. Witness the many issues that have been created by wolf hybrids as pets - they dont' behave like domesticated dogs.

Domestic pets are not wild animals. I think it pays to keep that in mind. You can keep a wolf in captivity, even whelp and raise one in captivity but you will never domesticate it. I'm sure that point has been made many times on Animal Planet. How wolves and dogs relate to each other and the difference in how they relate to US does matter.

If you have not read Patricia McConnells book The Other End of the Leash , I highly recommend it. She looks specifically at the canine - primate relationship and she is a very strong critic of the "dominance" techniques used by people such as Cesar Milan and yourself. She's hardly stubborn or uneducated on the issue either.

Many behavioural issues arise when people treat dogs like humans. Personally I don't think humans behaving like dogs solves those issues.

Edited October 28, 2009 by poodlefan

[Aidan]

...but of corse that doesnt mean it will work for everyone, it has to be done properly, and it has to be done by a handler that is "tuff" and refuses to except such behaviour and is not affraid of their dog.

Well I don't know, I'm happy enough to tackle a 150kg Tongan in a game of rugby (and trust me, some rugby players DO bite!), and I work mostly with aggressive dogs, but I wouldn't try this. It doesn't make any sense to me at all, and I would say I have a good understanding of wolf behaviour (if that even counts). I can see HOW it works, but it's certainly not because it's something that wolves do naturally to each other.

As Ian Dunbar once said, a wolf who FORCEFULLY pins another dog to the ground intends to kill it (I'm extrapolating to what you have suggested here). Can you imagine what this does to the psyche of our dogs? Yeah, it will work, but in the same way a psychopath with a gun pointed at me would be able to get me to do anything he asked!

The images you posted did not demonstrate the point you were trying to make. The wolf with his mouth over the other's muzzle is not FORCING the submissive wolf to stay there, the submissive wolf is OFFERING. There is a huge fundamental gap between this and what you have been asserting.

I understand that you have been taught this perspective, it has worked for you, and so you believe it to be true. But might I respectfully suggest that you are missing a part of the picture? If you google "L. David Mech" you will find a man who truly understands wolf behaviour because he has observed wolves, in the wild, for most of his life and taken detailed notes of what he has seen. He is, to my knowledge, the man who coined the term "alpha" in scientific circles - a move which he now regrets as it has caused so much confusion. He now calls the alpha male and female simply the "breeding pair", which has all the correct connotations and none of the incorrect connotations.

[The Spotted Devil]

Ah, well I'm not uneducated (post-grad in dog behaviour/welfare) but I'm definitely stubborn

Dogs DID descend from wolves but that was about 100,000 years ago. Domestic dogs began to look different from wolves around 14,000 years ago. I suspect there has been a bit of natural selection, genetic drift and artificial selection since then.

Heidii, out of interest, what do you think is an appropriate level of correction/display of 'dominance' that you would happily use on your own dog? I find it useful to think in that context as I wouldn't recommend to others what I wouldn't be happy to do myself.