I Was Just Completely Disobeyed..

[huski]

Absolutely get a trainer/behaviourist in to see what is happening.

I dont think this problem is in need of a behaviorlist, he simply needs to be made aware who is in charge and the owner is the one who needs to learn to inforce this effectivly and consistantly. His behaviour is common & used by dogs who think they are the boss...he/the owner doesnt need to spend $200+ to find this out.

I disagree. This is not a situation that can simply be fixed by scruffing the dog. Do that to the wrong dog, and the problem will get worse and not better. This is a situation that has the potential to escalate and become much more serious and ingrained if it is not handled properly.

Confrontation was suggested to me when Daisy did the same thing to me (growling when moved off the lounge) - I too was told to scruff her, growl at her back and say "NO!" or "ARH!". It made her behaviour worse because she took me up on the challenge and she escalated from growling to snapping.

IMO physical confrontation is never a good idea with a dog who is displaying aggression because if the dog doesn't back down and takes you up on the challenge you are putting yourself in a very risky situation.

What would you suggest if scruffing the dog to "show them whose boss" escalates the dog's behaviour like it did with my dog, because the dog takes you up on the challenge? What if the dog is stronger than you, or goes from growling/snapping to full on biting you?

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her and that is not something that can be changed simply by scruffing the dog. It's something about the way the OP interacts with her dog on a daily basis that needs to change.

[Pete.the.dog]

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point.

[OSoSwift]

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point.

I am sure that Huski didn't mean it as you took it. Huski is very knowledgable and has had dogs with some behavioural issues in the past.

Nobody is not saying you are not trying your best. You have taken on a dog at an older age and he will have come with some baggage as a result.

However for you dog to be growling at you, there is something going on. Be it that he doesn't see you as leader, or he is being a teenager, stubborn or just a little toad. There is a reason for what he is doing and quite often dogs do it because they do not see you as a leader. If you had a dog with a 'softer' personality then you may not be having the issues you are. I would say you have a dog that you need to establish set and strong boundries with and reinforce them every day. This is why I suggested what I did earlier - he gets nothing for nothing. He needs to earn what he gets.

Please try and see things constructively as I for one would love to hear in a few months time that your work has paid off and Pete is now toeing the line and listening. I know how disheartening it can be to have a dog give you the two finger salute and keep on their merry way.

[corvus]

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point.

I'm sure huski didn't mean to be hurtful. If she casts her mind back to the last time she thought someone was insinuating that there was something missing from her relationship with her dogs I'm sure she would remember how upsetting a suggestion it can be. There's no need for anyone to judge anyone else's relationship with their dogs based on just a couple of incidents described over the internet.

A lot of dogs try things out, and they will keep doing what works for them. Just because Pete tried out something that is socially unacceptable in the Western society he lives in doesn't mean that he must have little or no respect for his owners. We don't know very much about his home life and how he previously related to his people. But it really doesn't matter. What will define their relationship with Pete is what they do with him now.

Of course, what Pete did is troubling. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything about his relationship with the people he lives with. If it makes you feel any better, Pete.the.dog, my puppy tried jumping up and biting my leg last week when I dared to eat ice cream in front of him and refrained from sharing with him. Doesn't make him a bad dog, or mean that there's something wrong with how I relate to him or how I handle him or how he sees me. All it means for sure is that he's a bold and outspoken character and I need to gently teach him to manage his frustration and impulses and give him acceptable ways to ask for things he wants. And he needs to learn to accept that sometimes he doesn't get what he wants. He's currently snuggling on the couch with me licking my face because he sat quietly by the couch in the manner I have taught him to "ask" for something. Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation. Frankly, I would take willing cooperation over respect any day.

[huski]

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point.

Sorry, Pete, I didn't intend to be offensive. I wasn't trying to say that you weren't trying your best but that you could be missing something in terms of how you are communicating to your dog, and that you could perhaps be giving your dog unclear or mixed signals.

What I was trying to infer was that a dog doesn't usually snap and growl at you when you try to move them off the lounge as an isolated incident (unless they are injured), that generally it indicates something is going on overall, in the way you are interacting with the dog, and that your communication is probably not clear on some things. It could be that the dog is still learning the boundaries but talking from experience, having almost exactly the same issue as you, I know that it can be turned around if you work out where you are going wrong so that you are communicating with the dog in a way that he understands.

Corvus:

Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation.

For someone who thinks they aren't judgmental Corvus that's a very judgmental statement to make. I don't know anyone whose dogs respect them who built that relationship through intimidation. Respect is not something that can be forced.

[Heidii]

Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation.

I totally agree with this statement. This is what has gotton me extremly effective recalls with my dogs. People wonder how I have such a good recall.....honestly its mostly because of intimidation and dominance.

[huski]

Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation.

I totally agree with this statement. This is what has gotton me extremly effective recalls with my dogs. People wonder how I have such a good recall.....honestly its mostly because of intimidation and dominance.

I'm curious, Heidii, how did you get really effective recalls with intimidation and dominance?

To me, respect is not something that can be gained through intimidation or dominance. You can't force or scare a dog into respecting you.

[Heidii]

Absolutely get a trainer/behaviourist in to see what is happening.

I dont think this problem is in need of a behaviorlist, he simply needs to be made aware who is in charge and the owner is the one who needs to learn to inforce this effectivly and consistantly. His behaviour is common & used by dogs who think they are the boss...he/the owner doesnt need to spend $200+ to find this out.

I disagree.

What would you suggest if scruffing the dog to "show them whose boss" escalates the dog's behaviour like it did with my dog, because the dog takes you up on the challenge? What if the dog is stronger than you, or goes from growling/snapping to full on biting you?

How do you scruff? There is a particular method. I have seen fully grown german shepherds scruffed and they have backed down.....simply scruffing and letting go doesnt work. The dog needs to be held down until it stops doing the unwanted behaviour just like what would happen in a pack situation... The elfa dog wont let the dog up UNTIL IT SURRENDERS. This is done just under the ear, near the side of the face, of corse easily done on a long haired dog...you cant get bitten because the dog cant turn its head!

If you have a dog that will full on bite you, you'd have to wonder why you'd even have it in the first place and seriously look at what you have done wrong as a handler/owner.

This method has worked extremely well for me and alot of professional dog handlers that i know/have worked with....but of corse that doesnt mean it will work for everyone, it has to be done properly, and it has to be done by a handler that is "tuff" and refuses to except such behaviour and is not affraid of their dog. If this is something a handler has trouble with then maybe a behavourlist is the answer...but most times its always the handler that needs to be educated.

[huski]

How do you scruff? There is a particular method. I have seen fully grown german shepherds scruffed and they have backed down.....simply scruffing and letting go doesnt work. The dog needs to be held down until it stops doing the unwanted behaviour just like what would happen in a pack situation... The elfa dog wont let the dog up UNTIL IT SURRENDERS. This is done just under the ear, near the side of the face, of corse easily done on a long haired dog...you cant get bitten because the dog cant turn its head!

If you have a dog that will full on bite you, you'd have to wonder why you'd even have it in the first place and seriously look at what you have done wrong as a handler/owner.

This method has worked extremely well for me and alot of professional dog handlers that i know/have worked with....but of corse that doesnt mean it will work for everyone, it has to be done properly, and it has to be done by a handler that is "tuff" and refuses to except such behaviour and is not affraid of their dog. If this is something a handler has trouble with then maybe a behavourlist is the answer...but most times its always the handler that needs to be educated.

It's an old myth that alpha dogs would alpha roll or "scruff" other dogs to get them to submit. In reality, pack members will naturally submiss to alpha dogs without the alpha even needing to touch them.

I've seen people seriously bitten using the exact method you have out lined above, IMO it's outdated and incredibly risky. You see Cesar Milan do the same thing and he's been bitten doing it hundreds of times. I don't blame a dog who would bite someone handling them in such an aggressive and confrontational manner, in fact IMO it would be a pretty natural instinct to bite someone who is handling them in such a manner. IMO it's utter crap that if you hold a dog down by it's neck that it can't bite you, you can get bitten holding dogs down like if the dog is capable of over powering you.

Just what are you teaching your dog when you do this to them? That if they challenge you or do the wrong thing you are going to turn around and hold them to the ground? You can't force a dog to respect you or want to obey you. If you need to physically pin your dog to the ground to get them to obey you I'd "have to wonder why you'd even have it in the first place". There's obviously something else going on with your relationship with your dog and simply alpha rolling them is not going to change whatever it is you are doing wrong.

Edited October 28, 2009 by huski

[OSoSwift]

Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation.

I totally agree with this statement. This is what has gotton me extremly effective recalls with my dogs. People wonder how I have such a good recall.....honestly its mostly because of intimidation and dominance.

I had a very strong willed dog, she was the dominant bitch of the dog pack, I had an extremely reliable recall, only a rare handful of times in her life did I have to call her twice, even when dogs were trying to pick fights with her. I did not get this by intimidation and dominance and I honestly don't think that I could think of any way I could teach a reliable recall that hinged on that. I am at a lose as to even where I would begin to train a recall with that mind set!

My Whippet has a very reliable recall, but not quite as good as I would like it yet, and I can guarentee with 100% assurance if I used either of those methods I would have none!

RECALLS MUST ALWAYS BE PLEASANT! Otherwise the dog is going to weigh up what it is doing with coming back to the owner - and if dominance and intimidation were the order of the day, I could imagine it picking sticking with what it was doing.

I do not and have never liked scruffing so I guess I am biased from the beginning, I will use aversive in my dogs lives IF and only IF i feel it is 100% warrented and my other methods are not working. Not every experience in life is going to be positive, but to advocate "dominance and intimidation" as a routine way of training dogs I think is quite sad.

My dogs work for me because it is enjoyabel and worth it. Yes if they chase the cat they get growled at, or if I catch them eating cat poo, but as soon as they return they get rewarded. I also think that for average Jo Public to advocate scruffing a dog until it submits is potentially quite dangerous

[Heidii]

I'm curious, Heidii, how did you get really effective recalls with intimidation and dominance?

To me, respect is not something that can be gained through intimidation or dominance. You can't force or scare a dog into respecting you.

How does a dog learn to respect the pack leader in the wild?.....intimidation and dominance....the submissive dog also needs to have trust in the pack leader.

Intimidation can be done in many different ways.....visually, vocally or physically.

Visually by looking down on the dog, staring at the dog or making yourself appear bigger...pretending to 'rush' the dog and then walk the other way

Vocally by growling

Physically by scruffing, putting the dog on its back, standing over the dog, pushing, putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

I do some of these on a regualr basis to enforce who is boss...my dog knows the drill and happily surrenders. I found this made training my dog alot easier....i have done this since he was little and of corse at the start he tested me, but i never gave in.

Here the alpha male has put his mouth over the lesser ranked dog. He is showing signs of dominace by intimidation. He isnt going to bite down and the submissive dog needs to trust that he wont, but of corse it is a very risky situation and not a comfortable one.

Holding the submissive dog down - this dog is being intimidated by the pack leader

Visually displaying dominant behavour...this alpha male is indimidating the lower ranked dog into submission

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

[OSoSwift]

Visually by looking down on the dog, staring at the dog or making yourself appear bigger...pretending to 'rush' the dog and then walk the other way

Vocally by growling

Physically by scruffing, putting the dog on its back, standing over the dog, pushing, putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

But none of these things would encourage a dog to recall, if anything they would discourage it, a lot!

[Heidii]

Visually by looking down on the dog, staring at the dog or making yourself appear bigger...pretending to 'rush' the dog and then walk the other way

Vocally by growling

Physically by scruffing, putting the dog on its back, standing over the dog, pushing, putting your mouth over your dogs muzzle

But none of these things would encourage a dog to recall, if anything they would discourage it, a lot!

Its all in conditioning the dog to do as you say and to inforce your the pack leader and they have to listen to you. I personally use the above methods with my dog and he has a fantastic recall. You could say maybe his good recall is from other reasons but i personally think intimidation techniques helped.....he would not dared obey me now would he?

To more respect a dog has for you wether you get the respect by ways mentioned above the better your chances at good recalls and other activities....not once has my dog ever run off on me. I am not saying this is gospel, this is my opinion and a conclusion i have come to over trial/error and research....this has worked for me and many other people I know who all have well trained dogs.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Heidii

[OSoSwift]

Vocally by growling

This I will do in some circumstances, and I do get my puppies used with being on their backs, by turning them over and holding them until they are still so they get used to being handled, same as with their feet, tail, head/mouth/muzzle. But I think some of the other things are over the top for a majority of dogs.

I do expect my dogs to do as I ask, and I don't have many problems with them not doing it, I will growl if the are not listening and I need them to. My main one is leave it and here - in case they come across a snake ( and it is highly likely here) I do need them to listen for their own safety. But I have never and will never scruff my dog or try and stare them out, pretend to rush them or push them or put my mouth over their muzzle. I don't need to, to gain pack leadership.

I am a pack leader, not a pack bully and I hope I stay that way.

I am not saying my dogs are perfect and I am not saying that I am perfect, far from it. But I am always trying to gain a better understanding and to be a quieter handler as I respect highly the people who are very quiet and have extremely focused, obedient dogs that have become that way without yelling, shoving and pushing.

[Staranais]

How do you scruff? There is a particular method. I have seen fully grown german shepherds scruffed and they have backed down.....simply scruffing and letting go doesnt work. The dog needs to be held down until it stops doing the unwanted behaviour just like what would happen in a pack situation... The elfa dog wont let the dog up UNTIL IT SURRENDERS.

It's also an excellent way to get your face ripped off, if the dog doesn't back down, has poor bite inhibition, or is faster than you (and guess what? Most dogs are).

Scruffing, IMO, only works on a decently sized adult dog if it isn't yet 100% serious about what it's defending. And it only works if the handler is prepared to hold the dog until it surrenders 100%, even if they get bitten in the process. Neither of those things can be predicted over the internet.

And yes, IMO scruffing it can have backlash in terms of hurting your relationship, if you do it to the wrong dog. It's extremely confrontational, and some dogs don't cope with that well.

I'd love the input of the professional behaviourists on this topic (Erny? K9? Cosmolo? Nekhbet? Kepie-i?) Do you routinely scruff pet dogs during training, or think it's smart to advise people on forums to do so?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

You only need to look at a wolf pack to understand INTIMIDATION plays a BIG PART

Which wolf pack studies are you referring to?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point.

I remember the first time someone said this to me, and boy did it sting. They were right tho' and I needed someone to give me the impetus to examine the overall relationship.

Respect and a "good relationship" are often talked about as if they were a known quantity, but I suspect that it isn't so. There are behaviours everyone will agree on - the owner that sleeps on the couch because they can't get back into the bed because of the dog has a respect and relationship problem - no argument there. What about the dog that pulls on the leash on neighborhood walks tho'? I'd say yes but some people might find that confronting. What about the dog that pulls because it knows it's about to be set free to chase a lure or it sees a rabbit? I'd say no problem but others would want more self-control from the dog. That latter group exists all over the internet but you have to set your own standards.

One thing to remember about the internet dog world is that you cannot see into the poster's home or dogs. Sometimes people who assert great authority when they post are completely wrong. Pick out what you can use, and discard the rest. Wolf packs are not a learner's guide to understanding and training a domestic dog. More here:

http://askdryin.com/dominance.php

[Are You Serious Jo]

People need to remember that domestic dogs aren't wolves, they have undegone a lot of selection during their associtation with humans and have been partly rewired. It is not fair on the dogs to expect them to be wolves in different coats. Dogs do retain some primitive behaviours for sure, but they cognitively are different.

[persephone]

One thing to remember about the internet dog world is that you cannot see into the poster's home or dogs. Sometimes people who assert great authority when they post are completely wrong. Pick out what you can use, and discard the rest. Wolf packs are not a learner's guide to understanding and training a domestic dog

Well put!!

Without seeing this dog,its body language and its response to its owner/handler generally, plus how the owner is communicating with the dog- we cannot give specific instructions on how to work this problem thru.

We can generalise- resource guarding is because... it may respond to.... if your dog bites, this may be an idea.... but a personal consult with an experienced trainer/behaviourist would be my suggestion.

A dog prepared to snap/bite needs very knowledgable and sound handling....... it is not the ideal time for practising techniques suggested over the internet.

[corvus]

Corvus:

Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation.

For someone who thinks they aren't judgmental Corvus that's a very judgmental statement to make. I don't know anyone whose dogs respect them who built that relationship through intimidation. Respect is not something that can be forced.

O rly? It's not a judgement of owners, it's a biological fact as far as I'm concerned. Dogs don't understand benevolence, compassion, wisdom, or experience (there's contention about experience, but that's another topic)- the things that humans value and respect. They respect threats. Often very subtle threats like hard eyes, stiff muscles, or body blocking, but those things are threats all the same. Even not being entirely sure whether a person might chase or hurt them is a threat to a dog. Respect certainly is something that can be forced. Kivi rarely consciously pushed into Penny's personal space when she was still alive because he respected it. He respected her because she threatened him. In contrast, he is very comfortable pushing into my personal space, but will back off when I ask him to. Not because he respects me but because he has learnt he gets rewarded for following my suggestions. Willing cooperation.

We are talking about dogs, here, not people. People can earn respect through all sorts of benign means, but dogs don't understand that kind of thing. They often try to avoid conflict because they are social, they like to get their own way, they are exclusively self-serving, and they will do what works for them.