I Was Just Completely Disobeyed..

[corvus]

*puts flame suit on*

People here think I'm a nutter, but I honestly think you have to be VERY careful about how far you push a dog that is prepared to snap at you over something he wants. On the one hand, you can't for a moment let aggression ever work for him. It can NEVER get him what he wants. But on the other hand, I have seen dogs like that pushed and they can be really unpredictable. Sometimes it can make them worse. Sometimes it makes them better, but who wants to take that risk? It sounds like you know him pretty well, so you be the judge, but perhaps err on the side of caution and work on teaching him how rewarding it can be to give up something he likes voluntarily. But there's a fine line between bribery and rewards, and I think some dogs are very savvy to whether they are being given treats for deciding not to obey the first time in the hopes that you'll crack out the treats and whether they are being given treats for following directions. Don't fall into that trap of "I might try it without the treats... Oh, didn't work. Better get the treats." Not saying you would, just don't.

Are you sure he's not injured at all? Not trying to make excuses for him, but it can be a reason for getting snarky about being touched.

I guess what I would do is probably not what other people would do. I am not afraid to admit that I desperately don't want to get into a battle of wills with dogs. IME, it is a slippery slope and you can suddenly find yourself with your hands on a snarling, snapping dog, trying not to get bitten. At best, you manage to hold on until the dog gives up and they've learnt that aggression doesn't work with you. At worst, you get savaged and the dog has learnt to escalate their aggression. That is a pretty big risk to me. I prefer to play games that are less risky, and I'd be concentrating on taking the tension out of the situation and teaching an "up" and "off" command with lots of high value rewards. A leash is a good idea just in case. Targeting would be a good way to get up and off happening quickly. That's what I think I would try, just going on your description and keeping in mind that I might change my mind if I saw what's happening with my own eyes. I generally want my dogs to choose to behave in a way that makes us both happy, so sometimes that means teaching them why my way would make them happy.

[poodlefan]

*puts flame suit on*

People here think I'm a nutter, but I honestly think you have to be VERY careful about how far you push a dog that is prepared to snap at you over something he wants.

On that point Corvus we are in complete agreement. The dog gave a warning.. which should be heeded. Now its time to figure out where this behaviour is coming from.

This is not new behaviour for this dog. He displayed similar warning behaviour when the OP's boyfriend tried to lift him off the bed in June.

I would be recommending an in home visit. However as money is an issue, the OP needs to find ways to motivate the dog to do what she wishes, to keep him off the bed and not to try to "punish" this behaviour in ways the dog doesn't understand.

I think Pete probably thinks he was within his rights to warn the OP off. What the OP needs to do, in a non confrontational manner, is disavow Pete of the notion he has such rights.

Edited October 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[Aidan]

Have you got any other resource guarding issues? Not a bad idea to see a professional.

In the meantime, can he touch a target with his nose? You can use that to teach him to get on and off the bed on cue. That way you control the resource again.

Sorry I'm not sure quite what you mean by resource guarding? Like how he won't get off the bed when I ask? He used to do it occasionally when he would sneak onto the couch but he doesn't even go on the couch anymore. He sometimes gets off the bed when I tell him to, mostly even, but when he decides against it he is pretty stubborn.

Also not sure what you mean by touch a target with his nose? He is big, so he can easily touch the bed with his nose? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

Wolfsong correctly answered your first question, the "resource" was the spot on the bed that he was occupying.

Touching a target is simply touching something with his nose, whether it be a stick, or a plastic disc (yoghurt lid), or your fist. If he touches something with his nose, his body isn't going to be far behind it! Assuming they are still connected, that is...

It's a very easy trick to teach, instructions are here:

http://positivepetzine.com/target

When you have taught him to follow the target, you can move him to where you want him to go with the target. You can move him off the bed, onto the bed, wherever. This is a no force, +R approach to moving an animal. The point here is that your dog is making the choice to do it, making the choice to do what you have asked him to do. There is no conflict between you, and it puts you in charge of the resources.

It is easy to transition from using a target stick to no longer using the target stick, but the target is good, clear communication in the early stages and very easy to teach. I use targets a lot when dealing with fearful dogs, even in their fearful state most dogs will follow a target where they wouldn't follow a lure or verbal cues.

Seeing as you have no other resource guarding issues your prognosis is excellent, but the next step up from a snap is a bite so consider seeing a professional who can assess your dog in person as no-one on-line can see the whole picture. There are many things that can cause a dog to snap, it pays not to make assumptions about how serious it is or it isn't, but to seek an informed opinion.

[Aidan]

OK - so in the meantime - and away from the bed or any other precious resources, I would be teaching him the collar grab game. Some dogs are very reactive about having their collars touched in a restraining sort of way, but you can reduce this by making you touiching the collar very rewarding.

[Pete.the.dog]

Are you sure he's not injured at all? Not trying to make excuses for him, but it can be a reason for getting snarky about being touched.

Thank you for that corvus, I have battled with him before - he went through a phase of everytime I put his blanket in his kennel he'd drag it out onto the grass and leave it there to get wet over night. It was a long saga... He is stubborn, and I'm not keen on trying it with something he snaps about. Like I've said, it is out of character for the way he behaves about anything else - food, other dogs etc. AND for the record, I have discovered hot spots on him and have an appointment for the vet for him tomorrow, but not sure that it's related as I have brushed him today without any problems?

EDIT - I discovered Hot spots - I THINK! Going to the vet tomorrow so not a confirmed diagnosis yet

Edited October 26, 2009 by Pete.the.dog

[Pete.the.dog]

*puts flame suit on*

People here think I'm a nutter, but I honestly think you have to be VERY careful about how far you push a dog that is prepared to snap at you over something he wants.

On that point Corvus we are in complete agreement. The dog gave a warning.. which should be heeded. Now its time to figure out where this behaviour is coming from.

This is not new behaviour for this dog. He displayed similar warning behaviour when the OP's boyfriend tried to lift him off the bed in June.

I would be recommending an in home visit. However as money is an issue, the OP needs to find ways to motivate the dog to do what she wishes, to keep him off the bed and not to try to "punish" this behaviour in ways the dog doesn't understand.

I think Pete probably thinks he was within his rights to warn the OP off. What the OP needs to do, in a non confrontational manner, is disavow Pete of the notion he has such rights.

Thanks for that poodlefan you're on the ball. He did do this before, in June

Sorry quick edit - probably means nothing but Pete growled at boyfriend when he tried to lift him of PETE'S bed, to take him outside, not off my bed. Not sure if that makes a difference just thought I'd clarify

Edited October 26, 2009 by Pete.the.dog

[Pete.the.dog]

Have you got any other resource guarding issues? Not a bad idea to see a professional.

In the meantime, can he touch a target with his nose? You can use that to teach him to get on and off the bed on cue. That way you control the resource again.

Sorry I'm not sure quite what you mean by resource guarding? Like how he won't get off the bed when I ask? He used to do it occasionally when he would sneak onto the couch but he doesn't even go on the couch anymore. He sometimes gets off the bed when I tell him to, mostly even, but when he decides against it he is pretty stubborn.

Also not sure what you mean by touch a target with his nose? He is big, so he can easily touch the bed with his nose? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

Wolfsong correctly answered your first question, the "resource" was the spot on the bed that he was occupying.

Touching a target is simply touching something with his nose, whether it be a stick, or a plastic disc (yoghurt lid), or your fist. If he touches something with his nose, his body isn't going to be far behind it! Assuming they are still connected, that is...

It's a very easy trick to teach, instructions are here:

http://positivepetzine.com/target

When you have taught him to follow the target, you can move him to where you want him to go with the target. You can move him off the bed, onto the bed, wherever. This is a no force, +R approach to moving an animal. The point here is that your dog is making the choice to do it, making the choice to do what you have asked him to do. There is no conflict between you, and it puts you in charge of the resources.

It is easy to transition from using a target stick to no longer using the target stick, but the target is good, clear communication in the early stages and very easy to teach. I use targets a lot when dealing with fearful dogs, even in their fearful state most dogs will follow a target where they wouldn't follow a lure or verbal cues.

Seeing as you have no other resource guarding issues your prognosis is excellent, but the next step up from a snap is a bite so consider seeing a professional who can assess your dog in person as no-one on-line can see the whole picture. There are many things that can cause a dog to snap, it pays not to make assumptions about how serious it is or it isn't, but to seek an informed opinion.

Thanks for the explanation and the link, will have a proper read of it when I get home from work

[huski]

I had almost exactly the same problem with Daisy when she was that age. Confronting her made it worse because she took me up on the challenge.

I taught her the off command instead of confronting her, I started by luring her off the lounge with a treat and rewarding her when she was on the floor. This progressed to simply having to say 'off' and she'd jump straight off the lounge. I also consulted a behaviourist so we did some one on one work and looked at the things that needed to change.

Not all trainers are $200, it might be worth enquiring so you know how much you will be up for If you are in SA, Mark Singer might be worth contacting.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

As Staranais has already mentioned, people will default to saying "call in a professional" on DOL because of the risk/consequence issue. If you can't afford it, you're not a bad ownerr.

However. This might be something easily trained out, or there might be systemic issues in your household that mean it will escalate into something nasty. If your gut is telling you things are getting out of control then it's affordable in a way that hospital trips and a broken hearts aren't. If OTOH, you think this is just an isolated problem, try what people have suggested here.

Us randoms on the internet can't know what the story is, tho' poodlefan has a memory like an elephant and is good at stringing together previous posts so she's ahead of most of us there.

As you now know why everyone is saying to call in a pro, the final call is yours. Hire the wrong pro tho', and you'll make it worse. Some people representing themselves as dog trainers will use heavy confrontation and as others have mentioned, this can go badly wrong. Likewise the wrong positive trainer will be the wrong thing for this dog.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[Ravyk]

Ashley, just in case you weren't aware, Underdog from Melbourne are coming to Adelaide in Nov. They are running sessions and private classes while they are here

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=162918

[wire]

Pete.the.dog, you may have heard of a private dog trainer called Mark Singer. Myself and several other DOlers in Adelaide have used him and he is deemed as one of the best of the best.

I know you do not have the money for now but he has recently started up a forum where he will discuss/answer/advise people who need this. If you do not get satisfaction through his forum (which I'll post bellow), google his name and click onto his web site. He is happy to talk over the phone. Just be upfront with him re finances at the start and ask him if you can get some quick advice. I am sure he will be more than happy to chat as he is a very nice person.

His forum is www.caninetraining.com.au/forum and on his official web site his phone number is listed.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and when my little boy was around 7 months he tried it on me. I immediately pinned him on the sofa firmly (he was already sitting there, I did not roll him) and we had a quiet discussion on the do's and don'ts in my house. That was the time I contacted Mark Singer. The problem was we were so inlove with our little wheaten but he was getting away with murder! We thought he was well trained with all the commands he could do, just stubborn and cheeky.

I'll finish by saying our dog, who is now 19 months old is the sweetest, funloving pup. Has never tried to bite anyone since.

Edited October 26, 2009 by wire

[gsdog2]

Thank you for that corvus, I have battled with him before - he went through a phase of everytime I put his blanket in his kennel he'd drag it out onto the grass and leave it there to get wet over night. It was a long saga... He is stubborn, and I'm not keen on trying it with something he snaps about. Like I've said, it is out of character for the way he behaves about anything else - food, other dogs etc. AND for the record, I have discovered hot spots on him and have an appointment for the vet for him tomorrow, but not sure that it's related as I have brushed him today without any problems?

EDIT - I discovered Hot spots - I THINK! Going to the vet tomorrow so not a confirmed diagnosis yet

How'd you go at the vet's? My GSD has had hot spots in the past and they were extremely painful. Dogs with hot spots can have other skin problems and it may make a dog irritable and in Pete's case quick to snap - not making excuses, just looking for possible causes

[Pete.the.dog]

Ashley, just in case you weren't aware, Underdog from Melbourne are coming to Adelaide in Nov. They are running sessions and private classes while they are here

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=162918

Thanks Ravyk - It sounds great! I am very interested but unfortunately have already booked into a 2-day suicide intervention training for that weekend for my work at Lifeline!

You'll have to tell me how it goes though!!

Pete.the.dog, you may have heard of a private dog trainer called Mark Singer. Myself and several other DOlers in Adelaide have used him and he is deemed as one of the best of the best.

I know you do not have the money for now but he has recently started up a forum where he will discuss/answer/advise people who need this. If you do not get satisfaction through his forum (which I'll post bellow), google his name and click onto his web site. He is happy to talk over the phone. Just be upfront with him re finances at the start and ask him if you can get some quick advice. I am sure he will be more than happy to chat as he is a very nice person.

His forum is www.caninetraining.com.au/forum and on his official web site his phone number is listed.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and when my little boy was around 7 months he tried it on me. I immediately pinned him on the sofa firmly (he was already sitting there, I did not roll him) and we had a quiet discussion on the do's and don'ts in my house. That was the time I contacted Mark Singer. The problem was we were so inlove with our little wheaten but he was getting away with murder! We thought he was well trained with all the commands he could do, just stubborn and cheeky.

I'll finish by saying our dog, who is now 19 months old is the sweetest, funloving pup. Has never tried to bite anyone since.

Thank you for that Wire, I did run across Mark's name when I was looking into the professional, but didn't stumble across his forum. Thanks for the info on him too, I appreciate it :nahnah:

Glad your pup learnt his lesson - hope mine does too

How'd you go at the vet's? My GSD has had hot spots in the past and they were extremely painful. Dogs with hot spots can have other skin problems and it may make a dog irritable and in Pete's case quick to snap - not making excuses, just looking for possible causes

I just got back from the vet, he said it wasn't hot spots (my bad) it's actually a skin irritation/eczema from some form of allergies, probably seasonal - gave me some cream for it. Interestingly, did find a big eczema scab on his neck, right under his collar... Probably not a good enough excuse for the snapping though.. :D

[Guest RosieFT]

We have a gorgeous people loving fox terrier who did a similar thing when she was alot younger (under 6months, can't quite remember).

She discovered my kids' beenbag and thought it was great and on two occasions, she growled when we tried to move her. She also would hop on the couch and refuse to get off - lots of tail wagging here, no growling, but I made the rookie mistake of saying 'off' and pointing and she would do a really quick nash nash nash with her little puppy canines, with her tail going a million miles a minute and a giant smile on her face and glint in her eye. She was super hyper and I was pretty sure she was pushing boundaries but also thinking it was some GREAT game!

I did two things... I never touched the dog, I moved the item - ie. tipped her unceromoniously out of the bean bag both times and put her outide for awhile - she never went on it again. With the couch I simply pulled the cushion off and flipped her off.

I then also did training of 'on' and 'off' to ensure she knew what off meant.

She stopped the behaviour very quickly and although the couch was still a source of 'fun button pushing' for a little while longer, ie she would then hoon into the house jump on the couch, then off before i could say a word!!, the air snapping went immediately.

Not saying my dog's nature and yours are the same, but just wanted to point out that you could just pull the whole doona off your bed next time ;-)

[Pete.the.dog]

We have a gorgeous people loving fox terrier who did a similar thing when she was alot younger (under 6months, can't quite remember).

She discovered my kids' beenbag and thought it was great and on two occasions, she growled when we tried to move her. She also would hop on the couch and refuse to get off - lots of tail wagging here, no growling, but I made the rookie mistake of saying 'off' and pointing and she would do a really quick nash nash nash with her little puppy canines, with her tail going a million miles a minute and a giant smile on her face and glint in her eye. She was super hyper and I was pretty sure she was pushing boundaries but also thinking it was some GREAT game!

I did two things... I never touched the dog, I moved the item - ie. tipped her unceromoniously out of the bean bag both times and put her outide for awhile - she never went on it again. With the couch I simply pulled the cushion off and flipped her off.

I then also did training of 'on' and 'off' to ensure she knew what off meant.

She stopped the behaviour very quickly and although the couch was still a source of 'fun button pushing' for a little while longer, ie she would then hoon into the house jump on the couch, then off before i could say a word!!, the air snapping went immediately.

Not saying my dog's nature and yours are the same, but just wanted to point out that you could just pull the whole doona off your bed next time ;-)

Yeah that's a great a idea thanks!

[OSoSwift]

I am one who believes that there is no excuse other than being in shock after an accident (therefore not knowing what they are doing) that excuses snapping, biting or growling at an owner.

The first thing I would be doing is revoking all privlidges, no on the lounge, on the bed etc. Every mouthful of food he has, he has to work for - ie sit drop, heel a few steps etc. He would only come in the house when invited and be removed when I wanted him removed. You may need a lead on him to removed him so you don't get bitten.

I don't know him, but I think he sounds like the type of dog that if you did push the point, he would react strongly. No sense in getting bitten, win the phsycological war, don't try and win the physical one because you will quite likely lose.

He only gets the good stuff when he has earn't it, never for free.

Good luck

[Heidii]

I've had him for about 7 months, and he's about 14 months old. He's a bit 'independent', i.e. he does sometimes decide to do his own thing. We do training nearly every day with him have to sit and or drop to get his food, to come inside, for pats etc. We used to go to training but my car died and I can't afford a new one so I can't get us there. I try to do NILIF with him pretty much all the time, and am starting the TOT thing too.

But I just had a shower and came back and he was on the bed. I told him to get down and he just looked at me and ignored me!! After a little while of this happening, I went towards his collar to drag him off and he snapped at my hand!! Didn't get close but his intention was clear. So I went and got his lead, to which he jumped off excited (like he always is with the lead) and I tied him up outside. It's probably the completely wrong way to deal with it, so some advice would be fantastic!

Your dog is testing you...they call it becoming a teenager!!

You did handle it the wrong way, by going and getting his lead you have rewarded him for the bahaviour! IMO you should have scuffed him (as a pack leader dog would do to another when its doing something wrong), gave a loud NO! and pulled him off the bed and outside...and then ignored him for the whole day!

[Heidii]

Absolutely get a trainer/behaviourist in to see what is happening.

I dont think this problem is in need of a behaviorlist, he simply needs to be made aware who is in charge and the owner is the one who needs to learn to inforce this effectivly and consistantly. His behaviour is common & used by dogs who think they are the boss...he/the owner doesnt need to spend $200+ to find this out.

[OSoSwift]

IMO you should have scuffed him (as a pack leader dog would do to another when its doing something wrong), gave a loud NO! and pulled him off the bed and outside...and then ignored him for the whole day!

Whilst I am certainly not against aversives when required I really think this is probably an extremely good way of Pete's owner getting bitten.

If it was my own dog I could safely say I could do that and not get bitten(not that my whippets would ever require that in their lives), but I think in this case it is more a matter of work smarter. Physically grabbing him and scruffing him may be just the excuse he needs to go from warning to biting. Something that is hard to take back.

[corvus]

Physically grabbing him and scruffing him may be just the excuse he needs to go from warning to biting. Something that is hard to take back.

So true. Prevention is better than cure.