Halti Vs Harness?

[Nik]

Hi all,

I'm looking at purchasing either a halti type or harness type contraption for our almost 5 month old Australian Shepherd. I can successfully loose lead walk her when by myself or pushing the pram without my other kids with us, but if my older 3 boys are on their bikes/scooters she pulls and pulls and wont listen as she wants to be ahead with them. My boys also can't walk her as she pulls when they're on the other end of the lead.

I've tried all the methods I've seen here, as well as the one I've used to get her walking on a loose leash with me, but the lure of her big brothers is too strong.

I'm thinking that using one of these tools will help in these situations, with the aim to eventually move off them once she gets the idea. Her puppy school recommended the "Sporn" harness rather than the halti, but I've also seen a harness that clips to the front of the chest, not sure of the brand.

Looking forward to some advice

Nik

[Staff'n'Toller]

The one that clips at the front is the Gentle Leader Easy-walk harness.

Blackdog have a very similar version out now too.

[huski]

IMO there is no way I'd put a head collar on a five month old pup. This is a training issue not a tool issue, many dogs learn to pull on anti-pull harnesses like the sporn harness anyway. You're far better spending your money on a one on one consult with a reputable behaviourist - there are a few in DOLers who are trainers/behaviourists in Melbourne, if you tell us what area you are in I'm sure we can point you to the right direction

Edited October 24, 2009 by huski

[persephone]

This is a training issue not a tool issue,

Agreed

There are good trainers within reach of you !

[Nik]

Thanks

I'm aware it's a training issue, not a tool issue, but I was hoping there would be something I could put on her occasionally when the kids are with me.

She did walk nicely on the lead for my eldest today, after we had been at the obedience club I had joined earlier this morning.

In regards to one on one training, I'm in Newport, west of Melbourne, so any recommendations are welcome.

[4 Paws]

The one that clips at the front is the Gentle Leader Easy-walk harness.

Blackdog have a very similar version out now too.

wow.have not looked at the BlackDog website for a while and didn't reliase they do the new harness.Have they teamed up with Jenny Ireland or just a similar setup and name?

[corvus]

I think as a stop gap measure the no pull or head collars might be a good bet.

I have not yet had a dog that is a natural puller, but if I needed a little help I think I would go with the Sporn. I have seen them used on young puppies and I think they were more readily accepted by far than a head collar. My mother uses Haltis on two of her dogs and she really likes them. She says she has far more control. Both dogs learnt to pull before she got to them. Both dogs are happy with their Haltis and will cheerfully help you put them on when it's time for walks. Pulling doesn't happen. I've seen a lot of badly fitted head collars that look really uncomfortable, and I think some dogs never really like them much. If you decide to go that route, make sure you get one that fits your dog well and spend a bit of time habituating your dog to the head collar. As far as brands go, the Halti fits my mother's Boxer/Kelpie cross well, and I'm guessing she'd be pretty similar to an Aussie in size and shape.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that I'd use a Sporn on a long-coated dog. I'd be a bit worried about the cords getting matted up in the coat. But I have a Lapphund and practically anything gets caught up in his coat. He walks around with whole tree branches hanging off his tail.

[huski]

The pup is only five months old, a head collar would be a totally inappropriate tool to use in this situation IMO.

[corvus]

Would you care to elaborate, Huski? Why do you think a head collar is totally inappropriate for a pup?

[huski]

Thanks

I'm aware it's a training issue, not a tool issue, but I was hoping there would be something I could put on her occasionally when the kids are with me.

She did walk nicely on the lead for my eldest today, after we had been at the obedience club I had joined earlier this morning.

In regards to one on one training, I'm in Newport, west of Melbourne, so any recommendations are welcome.

I'm not from Melbourne so I'm not sure about where you are in relation to others, but we have a few trainers here from Melbourne There's Erny:

http://www.prok9.com.au/

and Cosmolo:

http://www.underdogtraining.com.au/

I know Kelpie-i and Nekhbet are also in VIC too

[Staff'n'Toller]

The one that clips at the front is the Gentle Leader Easy-walk harness.

Blackdog have a very similar version out now too.

wow.have not looked at the BlackDog website for a while and didn't reliase they do the new harness.Have they teamed up with Jenny Ireland or just a similar setup and name?

I believe they have bought the rights and modified it slightly. 'Harmony Harness' tag is attached to the harness.

[Erny]

Thanks

In regards to one on one training, I'm in Newport, west of Melbourne, so any recommendations are welcome.

Go HERE .

Four Paws K9 Training. (DOL Name = Kelpie-i.) They have a Centre in Keilor but are also about to start up in North Melbourne. The former would be about 30 minutes from you. The latter only about 15 minutes. They do one-on-one's out your way as well, if that's what you need.

Ask for Trish

Edited October 25, 2009 by Erny

[4 Paws]

The one that clips at the front is the Gentle Leader Easy-walk harness.

Blackdog have a very similar version out now too.

wow.have not looked at the BlackDog website for a while and didn't reliase they do the new harness.Have they teamed up with Jenny Ireland or just a similar setup and name?

I believe they have bought the rights and modified it slightly. 'Harmony Harness' tag is attached to the harness.

thanks for the info

[huski]

Would you care to elaborate, Huski? Why do you think a head collar is totally inappropriate for a pup?

I would be reluctant to put a head collar on an adult, but I would be especially reluctant to use one on a puppy for a few reasons. This is a training issue, not a tool issue, so a tool shouldn't be the focus in this situation to begin with. It will be harder to properly fit a head collar on a growing pup, and I would be reluctant to put one on a pup that lunges and "pulls and pulls" because I'd hate to risk spinal/neck injury on a growing pup.

Then you also have to consider that if you put a head collar on this pup now instead of investing in some training you're not really teaching the dog anything. If you take the head collar off, would the dog still pull? I'd much rather focus on learning to handle the dog more effectively instead of putting a bandaid on the problem when the dog is only going to get bigger and stronger. Dogs often learn to pull on head collars, so I'd rather address the actual problem.

Edited October 25, 2009 by huski

[Nik]

I'd much rather focus on learning to handle the dog more effectively instead of putting a bandaid on the problem when the dog is only going to get bigger and stronger.

That is where my focus is, and when we walk together she's almost perfect.... it's just for when my older boys are with me, and for the school pick up, as she think all the kids at school are her best friends and wants to be with them. I also don't like the halti for the twisting nature of it, but thought that I'd get some proper feedback here.... and I have!

We may perservere for a few more weeks with training before I look at purchasing something anyway. Ultimately I want her to behave as well for the boys on lead as she does for me.

Problem is that the boys aren't as consistent with her as I am.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It's not difficult at all to fit a head collar to a growing dog, they have plenty of adjustment and when you need to move up sizes you do so.

There seems to be a common fallacy that trainers just whack on a head collar or no-pull harness and send the client on their way and that is definitely NOT the case.

Fitting equipment such as the above involves at least 20mins of introduction to the dog, demonstrating how it should and should not be used, and watching the client demonstrate handling the dog correctly to get the behaviours you want. A caveat is always given that if the client does not change how they approach reinforcement with their dogs then the same results (pulling) will occur after the novelty period has worn off.

Nik needs something that can enable her children to safely handle the dog under supervision and a head collar is an excellent choice in this situation.

These things ARE tools, they change the situation enough, for long enough, that the client can reteach appropriate walking behaviour and GET the REINFORCEMENT in - thus creating an ideal training opportunity. If they are phased in and phased out correctly the good behaviour continues long after the equipment is faded.

[huski]

I'd much rather focus on learning to handle the dog more effectively instead of putting a bandaid on the problem when the dog is only going to get bigger and stronger.

That is where my focus is, and when we walk together she's almost perfect.... it's just for when my older boys are with me, and for the school pick up, as she think all the kids at school are her best friends and wants to be with them. I also don't like the halti for the twisting nature of it, but thought that I'd get some proper feedback here.... and I have!

We may perservere for a few more weeks with training before I look at purchasing something anyway. Ultimately I want her to behave as well for the boys on lead as she does for me.

Problem is that the boys aren't as consistent with her as I am.

I didn't mean to imply you weren't going to focus on training, just that it's often lost when people (in general) whack a tool on their dog and forget about all the other things that they should be doing with it

It's not difficult at all to fit a head collar to a growing dog, they have plenty of adjustment and when you need to move up sizes you do so.

There seems to be a common fallacy that trainers just whack on a head collar or no-pull harness and send the client on their way and that is definitely NOT the case.

I'm sure some trainers fit it properly but there are those who don't, too. I've met them and seen them do it with my own eyes. And, IMO, most pet owners buy head collars and just whack them on their dogs without knowing how to properly use them, fit them or if they are appropriate for their dog, which is what I was referring to in my last post. We aren't talking about a trainer assisting the OP here, so whether or not some trainers fit the tool properly isn't really the point.

Nik needs something that can enable her children to safely handle the dog under supervision and a head collar is an excellent choice in this situation.

How do you know it's an excellent choice when you haven't met the dog? Head collars are not a one size fits all and they are not appropriate for every dog. I've met dogs including my own who were properly fitted with the head collar and still hated it and found it highly aversive.

I must have missed the part where her children need to handle the dog? If the dog is pulling and pulling it's highly distracted and needs to do some focus work, I'm not sure I would want kids handling a dog that is highly distracted and not quite trained yet.

These things ARE tools, they change the situation enough, for long enough, that the client can reteach appropriate walking behaviour and GET the REINFORCEMENT in - thus creating an ideal training opportunity. If they are phased in and phased out correctly the good behaviour continues long after the equipment is faded.

I just don't see why a head collar has to be the only way to get this dog walking on loose leash. It's still a puppy, is it really necessary to whack something as aversive as a head collar on it to get some control back?

[Staff'n'Toller]

That's the whole thing, head collars never have to be aversive. Nik is obviously going to have her children handle the dog whether others agree or not, in the old leadership debate then the children should be handling the dog if they are old enough.

The fact that head collars are sold in supermarkets and pet shops and not fitted correctly does not mean they need to be thrown out with the bath water.

If the dog is very unhappy with one then another piece of equipment can be chosen. When fitted properly those dogs are few and far between.

Do you use correction chains when out walking your dogs or training them?

[corvus]

We have to respect that sometimes people need something right now to help them out. Training takes time, and if you're a busy person with kids chances are you're still going to have to walk the dog with the kids in the meantime. As Nik has said, she IS working on training and focus. In the interim, an anti-pull harness or head collar will, presumably, stop the pulling so pup doesn't get to practise it. That is a great start to me.

I know you have about as strong a dislike for head collars as I have for check chains, huski, but they don't have to be bad, and there's always the no-pull harnesses. I think it's really up to the OP. The OP should take into account that head collars can be aversive and her dog may never like it, but she also needs to take into account that head collars are designed to stop pulling and generally achieve those aims. I'd go for a harness, but I have a hang up about my points of contact with my dogs and that's why I like harnesses over collars in general. I also think the no-pull harnesses are less worrying to dogs when they are first put on. The cords would worry me, but maybe a GL harness would do the job.

[huski]

That's the whole thing, head collars never have to be aversive.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Some dogs may find them less aversive than others but the fact is they are aversive, otherwise they wouldn't work.

The fact that head collars are sold in supermarkets and pet shops and not fitted correctly does not mean they need to be thrown out with the bath water.

If the dog is very unhappy with one then another piece of equipment can be chosen. When fitted properly those dogs are few and far between.

No, but they have to be one of the most misused training tools I see on dogs and if someone is going to use one they need to be aware of their pitfalls. I would never jump in and say it is the best tool to use on a five month old pup, without even seeing the dog, or knowing what other training methods have been explored.

Do you use correction chains when out walking your dogs or training them?

I don't use check chains. I do walk them on martingales, for safety, because Micha can slip flat collars over his head. When I train Daisy I train her on a flat collar or I attach the leash to the end ring on the martingale so it acts like a flat collar. I don't see what correction chains have to do with it though? I have no problem with aversive tools when they are used appropriately.

At the end of the day, my dog found a plain martingale far less aversive than the head collar he'd been fitted with. There's never once been any discomfort or aversion shown when I put the martingale on him, yet his entire demeanor would change the instant the head collar was put on. Fitting it properly doesn't change the fact that head collars are aversive, and they have far more danger of neck/spinal injury than other training collars like martingales.

Edited October 25, 2009 by huski