Puppy Preschool

[leopuppy04]

I'm curious - for those of you out there who run PPS classes.

Do you let your puppies play or not in the class? As in off lead play?

What are the reasons for your decision?

How are your classes set up?

How do you manage?

How many dogs per class?

If you don't allow play - why?! And do you ever get clients who are a little disappointed with why play is not allowed?!

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ok I'll jump in since I'm around.

Do you let your puppies play or not in the class? As in off lead play?

Generally not, the exception is when I get a group of puppies who are very equal in age, temperament and manners. Then I tend to only do it in multiples of 2. Also only in sessions 3 and 4 so I have had enough time to evaluate their temperaments.

What are the reasons for your decision?

If you don't allow play - why?! And do you ever get clients who are a little disappointed with why play is not allowed?!

My area is too small to allow pups enough room to properly play i.e. play bows and zoomies.

There is an element of play in that the pups do interact at the ends of their leads and sometimes very briefly the leads get mixed up but I am always on top of it and owners are told at the beginning and reminded throughout - if the leads get tangled drop the leads so we can untangle.

In the first session which is 'puppy parents' only it is explained that play in large numbers creates an unsafe environment for dogs who are a bit fearful and prone to having a negative play session- which can happen in the blink of an eye literally. I also talk about dogs who may be a little over the top and bossy in play and this teaches them that this behaviour is acceptable and gives them opportunity to practice undesirable behaviours.

Generally the owners are very happy after I give my explanation, I tend to say "back 10 years ago we thought free-for-alls were fine - but now we know better". I also explain that:

1. A negative experience for their dog could mean months of hard work for a dog owner to fix a fear related problem.

2. Puppies get socialisation benefits from watching other pups and dogs, they do not need to rough and tumble for socialisation benefits.

3. Puppies playing with other pups is fine but they are all at a very immature level in body language, communication and calming signals, more benefit is gained by taking walks and careful interaction with adult dogs who have great manners and teach great manners.

How are your classes set up?

How do you manage?

How many dogs per class?

I run a course of 5 weeks and the puppy parents class is compulsory, if they miss it they need to catch up with me to fill in the paperwork and talk about what they missed BEFORE the next weeks' class.

I only have a small space, I have maximum of 5 dogs although 4 is perfect and I prefer it. If I have 7 or 8 book in, I run two classes.

My space is not desirable and neither is the fact that I can't move the chairs, but I can move the pups to give them more space and will if I have to.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Staff'n'Toller]

I will add that one of the worst classes I can remember was doing some off lead play with clients who requested it and it went pear shaped, nothing terrible happened but it was not how I would like to see a play session, the pups just weren't compatible. I will regret it forever more. Particularly since I had a girl there who worked with dogs in some capacity it was quite embarrassing.

My classes are very focused on having a calm learning environment, pups are always given a stuffed kong at the beginning of class. You have to think about the frustration level of novice dog owners trying to get their pup to pay attention straight after a heavy play session of 5-10mins- it's really hard- and they won't tell you- they just start to resent their pup for it.

[Cosmolo]

Yes i do allow off lead play- We usually have a class of 6-8 and play takes place 2-3 puppies at a time. The pups are matched according to their temperament, confidence and social skills.

Why do we do it? A- because i think its of benefit to the pups social development. B because i know puppy owners are going to let their pups play with others at some point so i would like to use pre school as an opportunity to teach them about appropriate play, when to stop play, dealing with different arousal levels and how to calm and settle their pup once they get excited as well as valuable dog body language lessons.

I believe the firs step in a reliable recall is teaching owners how to settle their pup and get them to focus after play and the improvements we see over the course duration is astounding for all those who listen. Those who do not listen, do not get to disturb others who do.

No puppy in my class gets chased around, bullied or jumped on inappropriately.

I was going to start another topic actually about the use of adult dogs in puppy classes (which i also do) and what others think so i will do that later so i don't hijack this thread with my thoughts on that!!

[leopuppy04]

feel free to hijack this one Cosmo -it's not moving very fast

thanks for the replies

Currently we don't have puppy play in our PPS classes and I sometimes find it difficult to explain to clients in a way that they understand . some great tips here

[ness]

LP There is some stuff in the Chris Bach Manual not sure if that might help you explain it. She won't allow free play either.

[Cosmolo]

Okay i have a question- for those who do not allow free play, how do you teach owners when to intervene, when to stop their pups and how to settle them after play and appropriate body language between pups?

Generally speaking in our puppy schools the excitable, confident over the top pups by week four have learned how to calm and settle and how to focus after playing, while the timid pups have learned social and play skills they did not have when the course started. The play is much improved by week four, not worse or more over the top.

My clients fill out feedback forms after each course and i still get the comment that they expected more play time. How do you avoid having unhppy customers if there is no free play at all? (And i don't mean we keep customers happy to the detriment of the puppy because i don't believe thats the case)

okay here are my 2 questions relating to puppy school-

What are the benefits if any in allowing adult dogs (sometimes called teaching dogs in this context) to interact during puppy classes? Is it appropriate for adult dogs to deliver effective but reasonable corrections to rude, over confident puppies? Do we 'protect' pups too much in not allowing them to learn the full range of dog body language during their critical period and does this influence their social skills or lack of as an adult?

okay that was a few more than 2 questions...

ETA - S+T do you think all free play is a free for all?

ETA2 Also, i just wanted to add i really like threads like these as its good to discuss these sorts of things with other trainers rather than just in my head.. lol

Edited October 22, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Staff'n'Toller]

As I said above there is still a certain element of play in my classes because of the small area and people sitting across from each other, so I am able to talk about intervening in play and we use the nose to nose meetings to practice recalls regularly throughout the class. We talk about dog communication and calming signals and I follow it up with a full A4 page in their booklets. Puppy Zen is a HUGE part of my classes.

I have clients bring their own mats and I find that it's easier for them to have a defined area in which to keep their puppy on so more of the focus is on the owner.

My clients fill out feedback forms after each course and i still get the comment that they expected more play time. How do you avoid having unhppy customers if there is no free play at all? (And i don't mean we keep customers happy to the detriment of the puppy because i don't believe thats the case)

Perhaps the reasons for the lack of play are not expressed clearly enough in the beginning - I'm not implying this is the case with your classes I am just brainstorming here.

I think it has something to do with Puppy Schools being introduced here in the beginning as Puppy Parties I still cringe when I hear people use that term.

I think clients need to understand that a class full of play makes their job oh so harder later on once the dog gets to young dog class and basic class and there is absolutely no play.

I guess that a proportion of my clients would say the same but my retention rate is very good so they can't be too peeved about it.

If I get further questioning on it my general response is how I would like to see play and why my environment is not conducive to it.

What are the benefits if any in allowing adult dogs (sometimes called teaching dogs in this context) to interact during puppy classes? Is it appropriate for adult dogs to deliver effective but reasonable corrections to rude, over confident puppies? Do we 'protect' pups too much in not allowing them to learn the full range of dog body language during their critical period and does this influence their social skills or lack of as an adult?

I'm not sure there is any tbh. If I had a dog that was a perpetual puppy and LOVED playing with puppies then maybe.....but that's few and far between.

I would be interested to know your opinion on: Should my dog be placed in a position week after week where he/she has to be disciplining young pups? Will this be to my dogs detriment in the future? Would he/she much rather be doing something else?

I talked in a group session with other trainers once about occasionally taking one of my dogs into class who has infinite patience and a real mothering temperament and the Behaviourist running the discussion said "you know what, your dog may put up, and put up and put up with it but one day she may not want to put up with it any more". I guess it's an individual trainers decision on a case by case basis but I find parallel walking and walking group more beneficial.

TA - S+T do you think all free play is a free for all?

I was not insinuating it was uncontrolled or unsupervised play by any stretch- sorry I should have clarified. I was at a seminar once where there was supervised play at an SPCA where there was a slight scuffle between 2 pups - one was given a short time out but when we zoomed in and freeze framed we could see that the wrong dog was given the time out as the other had given plenty of signals- this happened in less than 3 seconds. As I said, and you also commented the same, if I do off-lead it's 2 pups at a time- I can't watch 4 or 6 or 8 pups constantly, my peripheral vision isn't that great.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Cosmolo]

I think thats a really good question S+T and i think the answer lies with the individual dog. I have 1 dog who would correct a pup appropriately if needed but he does not enjoy it and i believe it would adversely affect him in the long run so he does not get used in any puppy class.

However i have 2 other dogs that i use for different reasons in puppy classes and i believe they really enjoy it. One is excellent for building confidence in shy or timid pups- she is very calm, gentle and relaxed. The other is IMO an exceptional alpha bitch- friendly but excellent at teaching warnings, body language and follow through with certain pups. i select these pups carefully and the responses on both sides are very good- my dog is not stressed as she is very confident in her own social skills and controls the situation well.

I completely agree re explaining to clients and i do this and still get the comments from some. They aren't negative comments as such (because they all enjoy the class and how the pups progress) but it just tells me that the expectation among puppy owners is still for lots of puppy play. The question relates specifically to 'was the class what you expected' and almost everyone says no Most say it was better or different or they didn't know what to expect but i would say 30% of clients expected more play time as well.

I have seen some pretty frightening 'free for alls' too- mainly large groups in large areas and they get so far away from the people that when something happens no one is close enough or quick enough to react! While i teach clients when to intervene etc, i also recognise that to start with they will likely be a bit late so i move faster than they do to ensure no scuffles or inappropriate play Interesting though- because i find a small-ish area better than a large area for puppy play too.

I've never heard the term puppy parties relating to puppy pre school? Was that common in Vic? (my early puppy schools were all in WA and i never heard the term there)

I spoke to a UK trainer recently who doesn't believe any puppy class should have puppy play without adult teaching dogs present and involved. She said pups together is like 5 year olds trying to teach each other rules and manners

I'd love to see how other puppy schools run, don't get the opportunity very often if at all which is why i like these discussions

[Serket]

Can I stick my head in as a recent attendee at 2 different puppy preschools? (feel free to disregard my entirely non-expert opinion!)

Both puppy preschools I attended allowed some short (1-5 minutes) sessions of free play with restrictions (e.g. only two dogs at a time, and only dogs who were considered compatible in temperament/size/age/play style). I enjoyed watching Gypsy play with the other puppies and I felt it was good for her to interact with other puppies. Having said that, I think that any play needs to be carefully controlled, and 2 puppies off-lead at a time and 6 puppies off-lead are completely different of course. Also, if it's two puppies off-lead at a time, but all the other on-lead puppies are still interacting with those two puppies, then it's not strictly only 2 puppies playing at any one time.

On the topic of adult dogs:

My parents have a reasonably elderly shih tzu (12) who has never been around another dog since their other dog passed away 10 years ago and rarely even leaves their house - we can't take Gypsy to visit because their dog can't cope. My MIL has a BC x GR who was taken to basic obedience training as a puppy (8 or 9 years ago), but hasn't really interacted with any other dogs since then except passing by them while on walks. She's fine on-lead, couldn't care less about dogs she passes or barking dogs in yards etc, she'll have a bit of a bum sniff but then wants to move on. However, she hates dogs coming anywhere near her when she's off-lead, and will snarl and snap. Letting a puppy anywhere near her is a recipe for disaster. So, the two options we have available for socialising Gypsy with adult dogs are both not possible.

It occurred to me at puppy school that while it's lovely for her to play with other puppies, it doesn't teach her that not all dogs want to play, and that older dogs aren't going to like her getting in their faces and being all bouncy. She's actually not that 'in your face' as far as puppies go, but she hasn't had much opportunity to learn when to back off since all the puppies she's played with have been quite outgoing and keen to play.

So for people like me who effectively don't have access to any other dogs (puppies or adult dogs) but who want to have a puppy/dog who has good social skills in order to go for walks on and off-lead, and meet a range of dogs of different ages and breeds, the idea has some merit. I don't know if it just sounds like a good idea in theory, and the actual benefit is negligible, but that's why I'm not the trainer

EFS

Edited October 22, 2009 by Serket

[helen]

Last puppy class I attended was brilliant. The vets have a wonderful set up so there was 2 areas, about 5 or 6 pups and 2 instructors. The pups were allowed to play and socialise in the middle of the class. The main instructor who is good at reading body language etc split the pups according to their personalities for off lead play. A few weeks later the more boisterous pups were put on lead while the quiter ones met them off lead, the quieter ones usually said a very quick hello and then wondered off if they did not want the boisterous one jumping on them.

Play was done in the middle so the pups then learn to settle down after play, they were given something to chew on if they couldn't settle quickly

[leopuppy04]

thanks for the feedback everyone - this is exactly the discussion that I need

Okay i have a question- for those who do not allow free play, how do you teach owners when to intervene, when to stop their pups and how to settle them after play and appropriate body language between pups?

Generally speaking in our puppy schools the excitable, confident over the top pups by week four have learned how to calm and settle and how to focus after playing, while the timid pups have learned social and play skills they did not have when the course started. The play is much improved by week four, not worse or more over the top.

herein lies my problem. I am of your belief Cosmolo that a little bit of controlled play in a good environment where puppy owners can LEARN what is appropriate and what is not (eg: not just thinking a tail wag is a happy dog) is something that would be ideal for PPS classes. I think that it needs to be controlled and, the temperaments of the pups suited to each other. So say if you had one timid pup and 4 really boisterous OTT ones, you may not have as much puppy-play in that class. So - on that note... we are at a bit of a stalemate between trainers

Having said that - I also think that dogs learn a lot through association, so even though they are not directly interacting, the dogs can still interact and read each other through observation and when on lead. I think having no play REALLY helps reduce the madness you see in 6 - 9mth old pups who just RUN to the other dogs as soon as they see them, because they have only experienced their owners being the source of all things good. I know of several dogs raised like this (with limited interaction with other dogs) and they have wonderful body language and remain calm and level headed when they meet other dogs. So realistically, I do think that both can be done to the benefit of the dog, but as always a happy medium needs to ensue!

What are the benefits if any in allowing adult dogs (sometimes called teaching dogs in this context) to interact during puppy classes? Is it appropriate for adult dogs to deliver effective but reasonable corrections to rude, over confident puppies? Do we 'protect' pups too much in not allowing them to learn the full range of dog body language during their critical period and does this influence their social skills or lack of as an adult?

I think it definitely has it's benefits, but as SnT pointed out, the problem is that I worry too much about the adult dogs. While mine have GREAT temperaments for example, one will not be good for timid pups and the other has great body language but I worry that it will later be a detriment to that dog after having to put up with so many pesky puppies . I think that this can be a great learning curve for the puppies, especially if you have access to a dog that would be suitable, it's just that I would wager most of us do not .

Having said that - it never amazes me what puppies read. A lot of this is more *exposure* rather than us teaching the dogs. So a puppy is still wonderful at 'reading' body language better than us and still pick up the signals another dog gives when they don't want to interact. In some ways (and this is a huge generalisation) I have found those with limited or 'controlled' off leash play to be better readers of this than those allowed to have a free for all (not any of the classes that any of us run, but I'm sure you've seen them before! ;)). These dogs have learnt to ignore the signals of puppy play and just barrel on ahead anyway, in which case I think that in a juvenille class (4-6mths) the adult dog might be more beneficial for these sorts of dogs.

I guess also - puppy's ideal socialisation time with other dogs is up to 8wks of age.... so imagine what they have learnt from their littermates already.....

that's one thing that amazed me with Kinta's litter is there ability to read body language and offer it so well (albeit clumsily ) from such a young age.

[Cosmolo]

I agree it can be tricky when you have 4 boisterous and one timid pup and things definitely have to be adjusted accordingly. Sometimes people don't understand that you can't choose the pups temperaments and personalities in a class!

I also wonder whether the area you conduct pre school in makes a difference- as in geographical location? I run a class in an area dominated by off lead parks and public space where dogs are permitted. There is a high volume of dogs and people usually have friends with dogs. Therefore almost everyone that attends these classes lets their dog play with others on a regular basis off lead so i don't think not having play in puppy class would actually make them calmer 8-9 month olds. Instead my focus is on teaching them the 'how to's' of puppy play Demographics are a very important factor- i notice significant differences in the kind of puppy owners i get between the 2 locations we have and they're only 1/2 hour from each other!!!

Yes i agree that pups can be great at reading body language. But i also see those that have only ever had play with like minded pups have no clue later on what 'i don't want to play' means. I love watching puppies adjust what they do to meet and greet one of my adults and i think its important for them to be able to do. I also think its good for owners to be able to see different body language- not just happy play or greetings. But i agree that access to the right adult dogs is difficult- we are jut really lucky with the 2 we have at the moment but we constantly monitor as one of the girls is getting older and we'll need to keep this in mind.

I notice big differences in puppy's social skills depending on where they've come from LP- pups who have come from a responsible breeder, kept until 8 weeks and socialised during that time are vastly different to the 12 week old puppy who has been in the pet shop since 7-8 weeks without littermates.

Helen, that sounds similar to what we do too, can i ask where that puppy school was held? I'd love to know where yours are too LP and S+T so that if i can't help someone in a certain area i can send them to a good pre school!

ETA Serket, thats really interesting. I find a few of my clients are in the same boat too and don't have alot of access to quality socialisation opportunities

Edited October 22, 2009 by Cosmolo

[NaturallyWild]

Do you let your puppies play or not in the class? As in off lead play?

Yes. Generally try and begin with brief hello/goodbye on lead. Then very short but repetitive sessions (5-15sec) of off lead interaction with owners interupting/rewarding attention then let off to play again. The time off lead increases if the puppy is appropriate and responsive to owners. This is depending on temperaments, but give all a chance to interact in some way regardless of temperament (eg an over the top pup on lead but some slack to approach a quiet dog who is off lead and can move where they want to).

What are the reasons for your decision?

It helps bring puppies to a middle playing field ie timid pups come out of their shell and crazy pups to calm and modify their behaviour so play can still happen.

How are your classes set up?

I have a very small area, so clients sitting spread as much as possible with a mat/crate at their feet for their puppy to have quiet time.

How do you manage?

The hardest thing is that the owners generally come along before class and let the dogs do anything, don't really think about managing interactions, and during class have to remind people to shorten up their leash to keep space between dogs.

Like everyone else has said, majority of owners think that more play is better and they can be there to have a chat rather than be involved.

How many dogs per class?

Maximum 5, prefer 4 simply due to space. Had 8 once because a temp nurse didn't know there were limits and booked extras (she came from a vet that has 10-15 puppies per class that just constantly play). This class ended up being heaps of micro management and less free time. Luckily really good temps so made it easier.

[Tilly]

I took my GSD pup to puppy pre-school and I had a choice if I did or didn't want him to play with other pups. There had 2 pups of similar size, temperament have a short on leash introduction and play.

I did a quick intro and walk away with my pup as I chose not to allow him to play because he was too interested in the other pups.

One thing I did not participate in was the swapping dogs - as my boy is going to be trained as a security dog I wanted him socialised (on my terms) and I didn't want a first time dog owner handling him.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Tilly

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'm in Doncaster/Balwyn, I also have a colleague who runs them in Templestowe and Heathmont and we refer to each other quite often depending on our own class availability. I've got your info in the drawer at work Cosmolo from your last mail out. ;)

Swapping handlers (pass the puppy) seems to out of fashion with the Vet Behaviourists these days, I believe it's because both large and small dog owners may mishandle when given a pup of vastly different size to what they are used to. I think for the majority of pups it's ok but I can imagine those with a sensitive disposition would freak out.

I was thinking it was Kersti Seksel who termed the name Puppy Parties but it wasn't, she has a registration for Puppy Preschool. I will have to check with my boss about that he may know. From my searches it seems that is what they are called in the UK. I do remember seeing banners around certain Vet Clinics in the past with that term though.

It's interesting about demographics, whilst I am in a well to do area, there are two very popular pet shops who have a revolving supply of DD's and other popular small purebreds so I have no idea of their backgrounds. I think one shop buys mostly from BYB's but for the other I can't tell.

We do have restricted exercising areas but there are large open areas in the municipality where people can exercise their dogs away from other dogs. I feel the trend here is more towards small groups of owners who all know each other and have a regular bunch of dogs also known to each other. I know of two such groups I'm sure there must be others.