4 M/o Puppy & Dominant Behaviour?

[Serket]

Gypsy is 16 weeks old today.

We've been doing ToT with her from the day we brought her home, and she got the idea very quickly and is very good at waiting until released to eat. Our mealtimes and hers are totally out of synch and so often she effectively eats before us, but not right before we do - usually an hour or more, if we even eat at all (we don't eat breakfast at home except on weekends). Whenever it's remotely possible, I do feed her after we've eaten.

From around 10 weeks of age she developed a habit of trying to hump my legs. Obviously I discouraged it, and she wasn't allowed to get away with it.

However, 2 different trainers at/around the time said that in puppies that young that sort of behaviour is just playing and over-excitement, and not an attempt at asserting dominance. So, not having experienced the behaviour with any previous dogs, I wasn't too concerned, and just stopped her from doing it whenever she tried.

When she first started humping, she'd try to do it every night, around 10-11pm when she was going a bit nuts with the zoomies etc so it seemed to fit in with what the trainers had said re: over-excitement - she was definitely a bit nuts and not focusing on anything. At this stage she'd have a go, I'd pull her off and tell her off, and she'd come right back and try again, and so she'd get put in 'time out' in her pen, and let out once she was calm. If she tried again, right back into the pen.

This helped, and the frequency and persistence decreased quite quickly, and she had more or less stopped doing it except for the odd attempt once or twice a week, but only half-hearted (not clinging on like she did at first). I've also gotten sharper with my response to her doing it - she gets a sharp "no!" and removed and then ignored and she'll just sit and not try again. At first, I wasn't as cranky as I should have been with discouraging it, so she didn't get the message right away that no means no, so to speak. We treated it very calmly, and just removed her from the situation until she'd settled down.

Now though I've noticed that although she doesn't do it often, she does seem to do it in response to things that are designed to put her in her place (e.g. eating after we do). For example, I made her wait for her dinner until 9pm last night, because that's when I was eating mine (OH didn't get home until 10pm) and and as soon as she finished her dinner, as I was walking down the hallway there was running then a flying leap and suddenly she's attached to my leg. Didn't get a chance to actually hump, I shook her off and yelled at her. She's also been selectively deaf recently when asked to get her paws down from the lounge and the bed.

OH is a pushover - he worries that if we put her in time-out and scold her for doing the wrong thing that she won't like us any more so part of the problem has been making sure he is consistent in the way he responds to her. He lets her get away with things a lot of the time, although he is getting much better.

In terms of who does what:

I feed her 95% of the time, I'm also the one who takes her to obedience, trains her, brushes her, bathes her, etc.

OH feeds her if I'm not here and plays with her, but that's about it. She hasn't made much of an attempt to hump OH - only a few times when she first started. But, OH isn't home as much as I am either.

She's an only dog but has been to puppy preschool and plays very nicely with other dogs - not overly dominant or submissive, she's been good at playing gently with smaller dogs etc, so no issues there.

With food, she had a very small non-serious growl at me once when I accidentally kicked her food bowl, but she's happy for my hand to be in there while she eats (adding extra food), and is happy for me to pat her and hang around while she eats, including when she has a bone or something else exciting. She'll give things up if asked (although haven't tried with a bone recently), but I always give them back once she's given them up (unless it's something she's taken and can't have).

__________

So, the question is (after the long-winded background!), is there anything else I can do to make it clearer that she's got no chance at being 'top bitch'? She's an opportunist, and will take whatever chance she can get (not that it's a constant power struggle, she's very well behaved and obedient 90% of the time, but I don't want to end up with it being a constant power struggle once she's older)

[Aidan]

I can't see anything that would suggest a rank problem, and you seem to be dealing with whatever problems or potential problems you do have quite well.

A bit of consistency on your OH's part will help, variable schedules of reinforcement make it very difficult to stop unwanted behaviours, including humping. Taking your OH with you to any training classes and involving him in training might benefit you all.

Humping can be a 'displacement behaviour' - a response to stress. So if pup is a bit over-excited or anxious, it might be one of the behaviours she uses to make herself feel better. Having consistency in your responses and a routine may reduce the frequency of humping even further, but of course dogs do also need to learn to deal with inconsistency and breaks in routine appropriately.

In my experience it makes no difference who eats first, it certainly doesn't matter in many wild populations of dogs or wolves.

[Serket]

Thanks Aidan. I've tried taking OH to training with me (only once, admittedly), but he's really not into it and I admit I get cranky with him when he doesn't do things 'right'. I'll ask him if he wants to come and just watch maybe - that way I won't get cranky.

He is starting to get the message about needing to be consistent though, so there is progress.

I'm not too worried about her behaviour because it has improved, but I'm also conscious of making sure any issues or potential issues are dealt with now, and not in a few months when she's bigger, and more established in her behaviour patterns

[Aidan]

I'm not too worried about her behaviour because it has improved, but I'm also conscious of making sure any issues or potential issues are dealt with now, and not in a few months when she's bigger, and more established in her behaviour patterns

I would certainly continue as you are in discouraging humping, but I wouldn't worry too much about any potential power struggle. If you are a responsible dog owner who trains, socialises and sets boundaries you won't have an issue. The problem of dominance is greatly overstated and widely misunderstood; you would be better served putting your efforts into building a great recall, taking her to the vet for weigh-ins, finding nice dogs for her to play with, encouraging her retrieval instincts, introducing her to children etc

[Dogsfevr]

I can only see one thing that i wouldnt be doing & will have no meaning to her except making her more hypo at that time

For example, I made her wait for her dinner until 9pm last night, because that's when I was eating mine (OH didn't get home until 10pm)

She is only 16 weeks & waiting to be feed when your a young pup isnt fair plus she then ends up going to bed with avery full stomach.

Her feed times really should be scheduled to her needs not yours & by making her wait wont teach her any form of manners or respect,that is taught in all the other area,s.

You say she doesnt try to hump OH but you feel that is because he isnt home,i doubt that is why,i would say your OH is more relaxed around her & she doesnt feel the need to make a battle of pleasing.

Dont get confused & make more of something that isnt there,there is a point where you can go overboard & even bad behaviour can result in getting attention that they can thrive on which could be humping.

[persephone]

She is a baby still- she will get hyper- she will get anxious and confused, and her humping may well be more a sign of an anxiety response than a "dominace' plot! ;)

I agree with this statement..

Her feed times really should be scheduled to her needs not yours & by making her wait wont teach her any form of manners or respect,

All it will do, IMO is make her hungry and maybe more excited

I also don't agree with hanging around while a pup/dog eats...it is their time, to enjoy their food- not to be expecting you to be doing something all the time...

If you want her to give up food/treats, then do it when playing, or training. have her on lead.. offer her a toy or something, then ask for it back. Take it gently and IMMEDIATELY treat her!! get her to sit.. and return the treasure...

repeat repeat repeat...gradually increasing the value of the treasure.. and always giving her a worthy treat, AND returning her treasure.

Having her on lead means she cannot make a mistake .

[macka]

This helped, and the frequency and persistence decreased quite quickly, and she had more or less stopped doing it except for the odd attempt once or twice a week, but only half-hearted (not clinging on like she did at first). I've also gotten sharper with my response to her doing it - she gets a sharp "no!" and removed and then ignored and she'll just sit and not try again. At first, I wasn't as cranky as I should have been with discouraging it, so she didn't get the message right away that no means no, so to speak. We treated it very calmly, and just removed her from the situation until she'd settled down.

I actually think a calm response is better in this sort of situation as you may find that even you saying "no" and getting cranky with her is enough of a response to her attention-seeking behaviour to be an incentive to do it again. If you found time out was helping I would stick with that but just take her there calmly and quietly, don't pay her behaviour with any sort of attention from you, even negative attention. If you are consistent I think this will work.

Now though I've noticed that although she doesn't do it often, she does seem to do it in response to things that are designed to put her in her place (e.g. eating after we do). For example, I made her wait for her dinner until 9pm last night, because that's when I was eating mine (OH didn't get home until 10pm)

I don't think the time that you feed is as important as the way in which you do it. You are already using TOT which is brilliant - I wouldn't worry about whether she eats before or after you tbh. It won't hurt her to wait a little but it also won't help you particularly IMO since it would be easier to settle her down after she's eaten.

She's also been selectively deaf recently when asked to get her paws down from the lounge and the bed.

Selective deafness is a normal puppy development stage, albeit a very annoying one. As long as you are confident she understands what you are asking you can try giving her a time out each time she fails to obey a known command. Again I wouldn't say "no" or anything to her, just the second her paws go up somewhere they shouldn't, lead her to the time out spot. FWIW this worked for me.

OH is a pushover - he worries that if we put her in time-out and scold her for doing the wrong thing that she won't like us any more so part of the problem has been making sure he is consistent in the way he responds to her. He lets her get away with things a lot of the time, although he is getting much better.

You will need to address any inconsistency in your training - otherwise the dog is getting mixed messages and it's not fair to expect her to understand what she is meant to do.

[Serket]

Showdog - let me just say that that's not a typical example.

She normally eats around 6am, 12-1pm, and 7pm, and we don't go to bed until 12 or so.

A lot of people say not to feed the dog before you eat, so we've been trying to eat first where possible to see if it makes any difference with the humping. If the consensus is in fact not to bother doing that, then we'll re-evaluate what we do.

People also say that feeding at the exact same time can also cause problems. She wakes me up at 5:30 am now wanting breakfast which is something I'm not enjoying, and my feeling is that feeding her then is giving in to her demands, which isn't going to be a good thing in the long run. She gets fed regularly, I'm hardly withholding food, but not necessarily when she demands it. A fixed routine has problems of its own.

I actually found last night that her manners were better. Normally if we feed her first and then eat, she comes into the lounge room and jumps up on the lounge and makes a nuisance of herself for a while before she settles down, she usually gets kicked out of the lounge room and put behind a baby gate so we can eat in peace (she's never been fed from our plates for the record).

Last night, she sat quietly at my feet while I ate, and didn't jump up at all, despite the late time of night and not having been fed.

Maybe it was coincidental.

I haven't had a dog that humps before, but I have had dogs who beg for food, and demand to be fed at certain times of the day. Sometimes both OH & I don't get home until 8pm or so, so her dinner is never going to be guaranteed to come at a certain time.

(and before someone comments - on those days - like today, I leave for work at 2:30 and come home around 8:30, OH leaves early in the morning and comes home late, but she hasn't been left alone all day)

[Serket]

She is a baby still- she will get hyper- she will get anxious and confused, and her humping may well be more a sign of an anxiety response than a "dominace' plot! :D

I agree with this statement..

Her feed times really should be scheduled to her needs not yours & by making her wait wont teach her any form of manners or respect,

All it will do, IMO is make her hungry and maybe more excited

I also don't agree with hanging around while a pup/dog eats...it is their time, to enjoy their food- not to be expecting you to be doing something all the time...

If you want her to give up food/treats, then do it when playing, or training. have her on lead.. offer her a toy or something, then ask for it back. Take it gently and IMMEDIATELY treat her!! get her to sit.. and return the treasure...

repeat repeat repeat...gradually increasing the value of the treasure.. and always giving her a worthy treat, AND returning her treasure.

Having her on lead means she cannot make a mistake .

I don't hang around constantly, nor do I fiddle with her food constantly. I do it now and then, because I didn't do it for a while and she growled when I bumped her bowl, I've hung around a bit more since then and no more problems. I'm quite happy to let her eat in peace, but I want her to be comfortable with someone being near her as well. As I said, I never take her food, if I put my hand near her it's only ever to add food.

The only time I make her give me things - treats and toys is when training, I don't make her let me take her dinner, and didn't mean to imply that's what I was doing.

This helped, and the frequency and persistence decreased quite quickly, and she had more or less stopped doing it except for the odd attempt once or twice a week, but only half-hearted (not clinging on like she did at first). I've also gotten sharper with my response to her doing it - she gets a sharp "no!" and removed and then ignored and she'll just sit and not try again. At first, I wasn't as cranky as I should have been with discouraging it, so she didn't get the message right away that no means no, so to speak. We treated it very calmly, and just removed her from the situation until she'd settled down.

I actually think a calm response is better in this sort of situation as you may find that even you saying "no" and getting cranky with her is enough of a response to her attention-seeking behaviour to be an incentive to do it again. If you found time out was helping I would stick with that but just take her there calmly and quietly, don't pay her behaviour with any sort of attention from you, even negative attention. If you are consistent I think this will work.

Now though I've noticed that although she doesn't do it often, she does seem to do it in response to things that are designed to put her in her place (e.g. eating after we do). For example, I made her wait for her dinner until 9pm last night, because that's when I was eating mine (OH didn't get home until 10pm)

I don't think the time that you feed is as important as the way in which you do it. You are already using TOT which is brilliant - I wouldn't worry about whether she eats before or after you tbh. It won't hurt her to wait a little but it also won't help you particularly IMO since it would be easier to settle her down after she's eaten.

She's also been selectively deaf recently when asked to get her paws down from the lounge and the bed.

Selective deafness is a normal puppy development stage, albeit a very annoying one. As long as you are confident she understands what you are asking you can try giving her a time out each time she fails to obey a known command. Again I wouldn't say "no" or anything to her, just the second her paws go up somewhere they shouldn't, lead her to the time out spot. FWIW this worked for me.

OH is a pushover - he worries that if we put her in time-out and scold her for doing the wrong thing that she won't like us any more so part of the problem has been making sure he is consistent in the way he responds to her. He lets her get away with things a lot of the time, although he is getting much better.

You will need to address any inconsistency in your training - otherwise the dog is getting mixed messages and it's not fair to expect her to understand what she is meant to do.

She's more hyped up once she's eaten compared to before she eats.

She does get time out with no reaction other than being picked up and taken out of the room if she doesn't obey things like 'get down' because we know she knows exactly what they mean.

ETA: I'm not suggesting there's a dominance plot, and I don't want to jump on the dominance-is-the-reason-for-everything bandwagon either. I'm asking because I've had people tell me both ways that it's a dominance issue that needs to stop now, and also that it's unrelated puppy behaviour. So I just thought I'd open it up for more opinions.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Serket

[Aidan]

if she doesn't obey things like 'get down' because we know she knows exactly what they mean.

This assumption tends to get in the way of good, clear dog training unfortunately.

How do you know she knows exactly what you mean? Or, to put it a different way, where do you draw that line? Let's say we have a dog who has been taught to sit at home, and does this reliably. We take him somewhere new, a dog park. He gets out of the car, sees the other dogs, and off he goes. The owner figures the dog "knows" sit, so she calls "sit" repeatedly but the dog doesn't listen!

Would you expect the dog to 'sit' in that example? I wouldn't.

The owner eventually lures the dog back to the car, goes home with the resolve to work on 'sit' some more. She gets home, cues 'sit' and the dog sits. She cues 'sit' again but this time someone knocks on the door, and the dog rushes to the door barking instead!

So where do you draw the line?

A lot of the really good balanced trainers do draw a line, but I suspect they are well aware that it is not a line where "the dog knows" but rather where "the dog will figure it out". Their corrections are instructional. Regardless of whether you use time-outs, corrections, purely positive - whatever, the "let me explain this again making it easy for you" approach usually gets the job done.

It's just something to keep in mind. Time-outs can be a great strategy in the right situation, but not usually as a way of punishing a dog because "they knew what I meant". Does that make sense?

[kiesha09]

An article re dominance and dogs

Dominance and dogs

I really don't think its a bad thing that you hang around while your dog eats. In fact I always suggest that people don't feed their dogs in isolation. In fact as puppies I train for this and have never had an issue with any kind of resource guarding. I will add things to the bowl, pick up the bowl, take the bone away, give it back, move the bowl around to different areas, throw a tennis ball past it etc. This is also a fantastic excercise in leadership training as it shows your dog that all resources are controlled by you.

The reason I do this is because I have seen a dog be given its food outside while a friends child was playing with a tennis ball right up the back of the garden. Well the child threw the ball and it rolled passed the dog and bowl. The child ran after the ball past the dog and the child was bitten as the dog tried to defend its bowl. It had ALWAYS been fed in isolation so had never learned any different.

As with the humping my dog did this as a puppy for no other reason than attention and it sounds like your puppy is doing the same. Rather than yelling at him and pushing him off you which is just reinforcing the behaviour with attention (good or bad she's unlikely to care, its attention after all) and redirect her to what you do want her to do. If shes doing it while your walking down the hallway and you would prefer her to walk nicely along with you as you walk down the hall then reward it and train her to do it. Her reward could be a treat, a game of tug or fetch. My dog would actually hump my leg as I walked down the hallway too for attention and because it was exciting. In the end I used the opportunity to practice our heeling up and down and added a sit, a drop, a stay and a recall all in the hallway. Stopped the humping very quickly.

ETA: Serket, please don't think that you are getting your head bitten off . We're just trying to give you some helpful advice. Personally, my advice is based on training a number of dogs but particularly one that gave me the exact same troubles that you are having so I hope that you find it helpful. The fun thing with dog training is that everyone has their own methods and oppinions so I guess just pick out the bits of advice that make sense to you and go with what you believe.

Edited October 20, 2009 by kiesha09

[corvus]

I'm glad that Aidan mentioned humping as a displacement behaviour, because I noticed Erik doing it when he was 11 weeks, but ONLY when he was vaguely stressed. The first week of puppy class he kept away from all the dogs, and the second week of class he was nervous, but seemed to want to interact. That was when I saw the humping. By the third week, he had come out of his shell a lot and was much more confident. Lo and behold, the humping had vanished and he hasn't done it since. He is now rather full of confidence and hasn't done it since.

If Gypsy does it when she has been told off, perhaps she is feeling nervous and doesn't know how to handle that?

Puppies are funny. They seem to easily lose their brain in the excitement of being alive. There are things I know Erik knows, but sometimes when I ask he doesn't do them. I figure, he's a baby and sometimes he just doesn't have the self control and focus of an older dog. I just ignore him. If he can't find the self control to sit quietly then I guess he doesn't want a belly rub, game of tug, or treat. He usually finds it within himself to sit quietly.

[Serket]

if she doesn't obey things like 'get down' because we know she knows exactly what they mean.

This assumption tends to get in the way of good, clear dog training unfortunately.

How do you know she knows exactly what you mean? Or, to put it a different way, where do you draw that line? Let's say we have a dog who has been taught to sit at home, and does this reliably. We take him somewhere new, a dog park. He gets out of the car, sees the other dogs, and off he goes. The owner figures the dog "knows" sit, so she calls "sit" repeatedly but the dog doesn't listen!

Would you expect the dog to 'sit' in that example? I wouldn't.

The owner eventually lures the dog back to the car, goes home with the resolve to work on 'sit' some more. She gets home, cues 'sit' and the dog sits. She cues 'sit' again but this time someone knocks on the door, and the dog rushes to the door barking instead!

So where do you draw the line?

A lot of the really good balanced trainers do draw a line, but I suspect they are well aware that it is not a line where "the dog knows" but rather where "the dog will figure it out". Their corrections are instructional. Regardless of whether you use time-outs, corrections, purely positive - whatever, the "let me explain this again making it easy for you" approach usually gets the job done.

It's just something to keep in mind. Time-outs can be a great strategy in the right situation, but not usually as a way of punishing a dog because "they knew what I meant". Does that make sense?

Aidan - I take your point, however, in this case she's been obeying the command 'get down' instantly and reliably for several weeks, so I am quite sure she does know what it means, and when she's having a 'selective hearing' moment, she looks at me and then slowly and reluctantly does it, or looks at me and then ignores it. It's the same place, same people, same (lack of) distractions.

I'm well aware that behaviour/training is often context-specific - what works at home doesn't work elsewhere, what works without other people around might not work with them, and so on and so forth. But for this particular behaviour, I'm pretty sure she's not confused in any way about what's expected. I don't expect her to behave perfectly or achieve the same rate of success at training or elsewhere and will happily start from scratch if required

An article re dominance and dogs

Dominance and dogs

I really don't think its a bad thing that you hang around while your dog eats. In fact I always suggest that people don't feed their dogs in isolation. In fact as puppies I train for this and have never had an issue with any kind of resource guarding. I will add things to the bowl, pick up the bowl, take the bone away, give it back, move the bowl around to different areas, throw a tennis ball past it etc. This is also a fantastic excercise in leadership training as it shows your dog that all resources are controlled by you.

The reason I do this is because I have seen a dog be given its food outside while a friends child was playing with a tennis ball right up the back of the garden. Well the child threw the ball and it rolled passed the dog and bowl. The child ran after the ball past the dog and the child was bitten as the dog tried to defend its bowl. It had ALWAYS been fed in isolation so had never learned any different.

As with the humping my dog did this as a puppy for no other reason than attention and it sounds like your puppy is doing the same. Rather than yelling at him and pushing him off you which is just reinforcing the behaviour with attention (good or bad she's unlikely to care, its attention after all) and redirect her to what you do want her to do. If shes doing it while your walking down the hallway and you would prefer her to walk nicely along with you as you walk down the hall then reward it and train her to do it. Her reward could be a treat, a game of tug or fetch. My dog would actually hump my leg as I walked down the hallway too for attention and because it was exciting. In the end I used the opportunity to practice our heeling up and down and added a sit, a drop, a stay and a recall all in the hallway. Stopped the humping very quickly.

ETA: Serket, please don't think that you are getting your head bitten off . We're just trying to give you some helpful advice. Personally, my advice is based on training a number of dogs but particularly one that gave me the exact same troubles that you are having so I hope that you find it helpful. The fun thing with dog training is that everyone has their own methods and oppinions so I guess just pick out the bits of advice that make sense to you and go with what you believe.

Kiesha - thanks for the article. I might try redirecting her more often - I tell her off and then ignore her, so while she does get attention it;s only very briefly, but I tell OH the same thing that any attention is good attention as far as she's concerned so time to take my own advice, and try redirection as the new strategy of choice

I'm glad that Aidan mentioned humping as a displacement behaviour, because I noticed Erik doing it when he was 11 weeks, but ONLY when he was vaguely stressed. The first week of puppy class he kept away from all the dogs, and the second week of class he was nervous, but seemed to want to interact. That was when I saw the humping. By the third week, he had come out of his shell a lot and was much more confident. Lo and behold, the humping had vanished and he hasn't done it since. He is now rather full of confidence and hasn't done it since.

If Gypsy does it when she has been told off, perhaps she is feeling nervous and doesn't know how to handle that?

Puppies are funny. They seem to easily lose their brain in the excitement of being alive. There are things I know Erik knows, but sometimes when I ask he doesn't do them. I figure, he's a baby and sometimes he just doesn't have the self control and focus of an older dog. I just ignore him. If he can't find the self control to sit quietly then I guess he doesn't want a belly rub, game of tug, or treat. He usually finds it within himself to sit quietly.

Was Erik humping people or other puppies? Gypsy has never shown the slightly inclination to hump other puppies, pretty must just me. I must be special

She doesn't do it after she's been told off. It pretty much comes out of nowhere - sometimes it seems to be when she's hyped up from playing fetch, other times I'll just be walking down the hallway and there she is latching on, the recent times have been after a bath, and after eating her dinner. Sometimes it's right after she's been getting lots of attention and interaction, other times she's just been playing with a toy quietly and comes flying out of nowhere. Who knows, it could be for different reasons each time. Over-excitement certainly seemed to the reason early on, and it still makes sense on the less frequent occasions she's done it recently.

She's a very confident puppy with new people/places/things/other dogs, she's not a fan of the bath but she's not stressed out by it either - she'll still eat treats while in there, whereas my MIL's dog won't because she's too stressed, so even the incident after the bath doesn't seem stress related. She could have just been excited to be out though!

Like I said, I'm not hugely concerned, and it's much much better than it was in the beginning. There's another thread in general started today regarding a 4 month old puppy, with a general consensus that humping = dominance, so everyone seems to have a different theory regarding it.

As long as the frequency continues to reduce, I'm happy. Just wanted to see if I was missing any big warning signs of an imminent takeover

I've been lucky perhaps with previous dogs - ideas of dominance and pack rank and all of that never crossed my mind until I came across them on here, and since so many people see humping as a dominance behaviour, and see things like ToT as being so essential in maintaining rank I thought I must have been living under a rock.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Serket

[Erny]

A lot of people say not to feed the dog before you eat, so we've been trying to eat first where possible to see if it makes any difference with the humping. If the consensus is in fact not to bother doing that, then we'll re-evaluate what we do.

If you want to continue the "eat first" regime (no harm in it) ..... make it easier on yourselves and simply have a human biscuit which you eat directly before putting your pup's meal down. This way it doesn't matter when you eat your meals nor when pup eats his.

And it's a good excuse for you to have a Tim Tam .

I don't put too much store in the "eat first" theory, but I do use it in my regime when I have clients who are having more extreme troubles with their adult dog/s. Whether it's because it does mean anything to the dog or whether it's because it helps some people with developing some structure and sense of assertiveness (which is often lacking and hence the reason for the troublesome dog), it doesn't really matter. But this is one of the more minor routines that by itself I don't think would make a difference.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Erny

[Sahla]

Serket - You sound like you know Gypsy pretty well and appear to have a good grip on her behaviours!! I think you just need to keep doing what you've been doing and Gypsy will turn out just fine!!

She's a lucky puppy to have someone like you to careso much about her..... have you ever thought that she may be just trying to return that love and can't get close enough to you?? (That was a joke by the way before it too gets misconstrued!!)

[Staranais]

I'm glad that Aidan mentioned humping as a displacement behaviour, because I noticed Erik doing it when he was 11 weeks, but ONLY when he was vaguely stressed.

My girl did this a few times around 12 weeks old, but only when she was very excited.

I must admit I was a little surprised and bemused the first time - I've only had boy dogs before - I didn't know girl puppies did that too! I didn't deliberately punish her for it, besides pushing her off and stopping the play, but I think she saw the shocked look on my face and hasn't tried it since. She's a sensitive little thing!

I think it would be a pretty rare puppy that had serious ideas about raising its place in the pack hierarchy at only 3 or 4 months old. Most "bad" behaviour at that age seem to be that either you just haven't taught the puppy not to do it (or haven't taught it what to do instead), or as Corvus says they're simply too tiny to show the self control yet. They are just toddlers, at that age.

Sounds like Serket is doing well, gently discouraging the bad behaviours, and training all the good ones she prefers to see.

[all that glitters]

I thought I'd also mention about the eating before your pup idea... this doesn't necessarily have to be your dinner that she eats after, you could just eat a snack or chocolate bar or something in front of her so she sees you eating, even just a nibble on anything really, and then she thinks you are and have eaten! That's what we used to do anyway *shrug*

[corvus]

Was Erik humping people or other puppies? Gypsy has never shown the slightly inclination to hump other puppies, pretty must just me. I must be special

Other puppies, my leg, but one puppy in particular. It seemed to me like a "I'm feeling a little uncertain.... but a little excited.... what can I do?" and then he'd suddenly perk up and go and hump something. Invariably something he felt less intimidated by.

Humping interpretations bother me a little bit because I think it's very hard for people to divorce themselves from human sexuality when they see it. I've seen a lot of young dogs at the park doing it when they get overexcited. To me it is often an indication of them not knowing quite what to do with themselves. I was watching someone else's dog at a family gathering a few weeks ago humping Erik. Why was he picking Erik in particular? Of all the dogs there, Erik was not the smallest, but he was the youngest. One might reason that because he was the youngest he was the logical place to start asserting one's dominance, especially if one is not a dominant dog by nature and wants to start somewhere easy. But then, if Erik was picking targets that were less intimidating to him, why should it be different for an adult dog that was also feeling uncertain? Just because of social maturity? He was desexed and not well socialised. He didn't look to me like he was in his element with 5 other male dogs in a strange backyard. Maybe it's easy to mix up dominance and uncertainty? I am just not convinced about the dominance thing at the moment. I don't see dogs that aren't conflicted in some way doing it.

If you see dominance as less about social hierarchy and more about securing access to resources, then I think I have seen a few puppies behaving dominantly. Erik is one of them. At 10 weeks of age, just a few days after we got him, he stood over a small piece of bone he'd found and growled menacingly at Kivi, who was a good 3 metres away at the time. I was like "hello, note to self: watch that!". I'd seen puppies resource guarding before, but there was a different element to this. Erik was not wildly interested in the bone. He was making a point. He thought better of it halfway through and the growl died away very quickly, and then he got nice and comfy with Kivi and we've not seen anything like that happen again. There is no doubt in my mind that Erik will do whatever it takes to get what he wants. To me, that is a dominant personality. My job is to guide him in learning acceptable ways to get what he wants, and to gently habituate him to frustration. Fortunately for me, Erik is very responsive to rewards and thoroughly loves doing things to earn them. He quickly forgets what he wanted when you give him an opportunity to earn a different reward.

One time at puppy preschool the Leo puppy tried to take Erik's pig snout. He had a go at her, then pinched a piece of her cooked liver treats, almost as an afterthought! The audacity. Some puppies are rather bold and outspoken, and I think you've gotta treat that much the same way as you would dominance in an older dog.

[Serket]

Was Erik humping people or other puppies? Gypsy has never shown the slightly inclination to hump other puppies, pretty must just me. I must be special

Other puppies, my leg, but one puppy in particular. It seemed to me like a "I'm feeling a little uncertain.... but a little excited.... what can I do?" and then he'd suddenly perk up and go and hump something. Invariably something he felt less intimidated by.

Humping interpretations bother me a little bit because I think it's very hard for people to divorce themselves from human sexuality when they see it. I've seen a lot of young dogs at the park doing it when they get overexcited. To me it is often an indication of them not knowing quite what to do with themselves. I was watching someone else's dog at a family gathering a few weeks ago humping Erik. Why was he picking Erik in particular? Of all the dogs there, Erik was not the smallest, but he was the youngest. One might reason that because he was the youngest he was the logical place to start asserting one's dominance, especially if one is not a dominant dog by nature and wants to start somewhere easy. But then, if Erik was picking targets that were less intimidating to him, why should it be different for an adult dog that was also feeling uncertain? Just because of social maturity? He was desexed and not well socialised. He didn't look to me like he was in his element with 5 other male dogs in a strange backyard. Maybe it's easy to mix up dominance and uncertainty? I am just not convinced about the dominance thing at the moment. I don't see dogs that aren't conflicted in some way doing it.

If you see dominance as less about social hierarchy and more about securing access to resources, then I think I have seen a few puppies behaving dominantly. Erik is one of them. At 10 weeks of age, just a few days after we got him, he stood over a small piece of bone he'd found and growled menacingly at Kivi, who was a good 3 metres away at the time. I was like "hello, note to self: watch that!". I'd seen puppies resource guarding before, but there was a different element to this. Erik was not wildly interested in the bone. He was making a point. He thought better of it halfway through and the growl died away very quickly, and then he got nice and comfy with Kivi and we've not seen anything like that happen again. There is no doubt in my mind that Erik will do whatever it takes to get what he wants. To me, that is a dominant personality. My job is to guide him in learning acceptable ways to get what he wants, and to gently habituate him to frustration. Fortunately for me, Erik is very responsive to rewards and thoroughly loves doing things to earn them. He quickly forgets what he wanted when you give him an opportunity to earn a different reward.

One time at puppy preschool the Leo puppy tried to take Erik's pig snout. He had a go at her, then pinched a piece of her cooked liver treats, almost as an afterthought! The audacity. Some puppies are rather bold and outspoken, and I think you've gotta treat that much the same way as you would dominance in an older dog.

My feeling has been that it's over excitement, and not knowing how to channel that energy into anything else. But so many people see it as dominance, and a big red warning flag, regardless of the age of the puppy/dog, so

She is a very confident and outgoing puppy, and also quick to take advantage of any lapses of consistency. She's also very clever, and if she gets away with something once she'll keep trying again and again. Most dogs are probably like that, I suppose. She's great to train because she picks things up really quickly, but it means she's also quick to learn other things.

When we first had her in her crate, she tried crying a bit - she tried all the different noises she could make, and after each new type of whine/whimper/bark she'd pause, and look around to see if it got a reaction, and if not, she'd try a new noise. After a while she just huffed and lay down and went to sleep. She didn't want to be in there of course, but she wasn't working herself up into a stressed-out mess either (she has done that too, so I know the difference), just seeing if she could manipulate her way out, then giving up when it didn't work.

At the moment, she wakes me up at 5:45 with 'i need to go to the toilet' noises (they're very cute little grumble-y whines ). So I stumble out of bed, take her out, except recently she doesn't come outside and runs right to her food bowl, and only then comes outside. I'm not going to ignore her noises, even though sometimes she doesn't need to go, because she usually does need to go, and I don't want her to have an accident in her crate. Most mornings recently she has then been given breakfast after coming back inside.

This morning for example, she woke me up at 5:30, I got up, let her out, she ran straight to her food bowl, I walked past her and went outside. She stood at the door and barked at me (presumably meaning, hey get back in here and feed me!). She followed me out after a while, and did a wee (surprise surprise).

Sometimes I get up, take her out, and then go back to bed and feed her an hour or so later, and I'm going to go back to doing that, because at the moment she's become too set in the routine. She's been waking me up earlier and earlier, and that's something I'd like to stop. We were getting up at 5am before daylight savings started, then we went back to 6am, and now we're getting earlier again. Partly it's the time of the sunrise, partly it's her waking up and deciding it's breakfast time because it's been working for her before.

She gets a kong or something else to eat in her crate at night, so she's not starving or especially hungry, it's been 6 hours max. since she last ate at the point where she decides it's breakfast time.

She gets fed regularly, and she's getting fed enough - she's the perfect weight for her age, so I'm not keen on having her dictate meal times. Lunch and dinner don't have the same issues, because they're not as consistent and it's not as easy for her to keep track of the time either.

Anyway, different issue to the humping, went off on a bit of a tangent.

[corvus]

Yeah, sorry, I went a bit off topic there.

Erik often wakes up at 5:30. That's the time our alarm goes off anyway. Once he's awake, there's no stopping him. He NEEDS to run around like a lunatic for the next 3 hours. He's been sleeping all night! We just kind of pop him into the kitchen with the older dog to babysit him for a while. He probably checks his bowl even though he doesn't get fed for another 2 hours. It's always worth it, right? You can always put bowls up when they are not in use.