Thinking About This Whole Pit Bull Thing

[tybrax]

What are we in denial about please clarify?

tybrax

[Nannas]

I'm wondering, really, how long has the Pit Bull really been banned from importation to Australia?

There is a website i regularly visit that advertises APBT pups for sale with American papers - how totally irresponsible is that? i mean, for starters aren't all APBT in Australia supposed to be desexed in accordance to legislation? and further open promotion blatantly flaunting ownership, profit from and breeding - isn't this just hurting the antiBSL cause?

If i were the owner of a APBT in this current hostile climate, i certainly wouldn't be shouting out about it. Having said that, i have previously owned APBT crosses and i hate to admit it, these dogs were less temperamentally reliable than our other dogs. All fed the same diet, all the same amount of work and attention and exercise and socialisation. (we have pig dogs). Yes they were lovely by nature but after owning three, i can say that i could never trust these dogs around strangers even in my attendence quite as much as i could our other dogs. Of course you could never fully trust any dog, after all they are creatures of there own devices, but the pitty crosses were just that little bit more sensitive.

Now i'm not saying i support BSL in any way, but it does take a firm and experienced hand to bring out the best in an APBT or a cross. And these backyard bred ones bred by yobbos to make a buck - well there's the reason the breed has a poor reputation.

There needs to be a greater effort amongst APBT nad cross owners to ensure their dogs welfare by doing something about the backyard breeding that is creating a generation of in bred, ill tempered dogs - as they would be in any breed that was backyard bred, but with the pit bulls natural tenacity and strength, is only a recipe for further accusations and damage of the breed.

APBT proved they weren't the dog for me, and i'm personally not really a fan of them but i understand the love for a dog regardless of his heritage and his place in your heart, and it pains me to see the honest people get jibbed when these suspect looking 'breeders' can blatantly flaunt their disregard for the future of the dog they profit from (cos they obviously don't care about anything else)

Hi amy,

As I think others have mentioned in ACT and NT the BSL doesn't apply, so they are free to breed and sell and buy as they choose. SOME are quite responsible people but as we know not everyone is.

There is nothing wrong or illegal about being proud of owning a restricted breed, as long as you follow the laws in restricted areas. The problems arise from the people NOT following the laws. When restrictions came in here you had to follow some rules immediately, then had 28days to comply with the first laws, then 3 months to comply with the stricter laws. I know alot of good people, who had owned their dogs for years,,,,that simply could not AFFORD to come up with a spare couple of thousand dollars to comply. Their choices were go underground and hide their dog/ give it away or hand it in to be PTS.

Since then, any restricted breed found that is not 'legal' can automatically be seized and PTS. There have been thousands of dogs that look similar to 'pit types' (AST, Staffy, mix breeds) that have been PTS by mistake. (Some of those were registered and microchipped legal dogs, just mis-identified by council rangers who have little training)

I think one of the biggest issues with fighting BSL is that not all owners of "restricted" breeds can come to a meeting of the minds.

No matter where/when the subject is brought up, it is always a big fight.

With each state having different rules and each Council within each state being able to pick and choose between the rules, we end up with everyone being confused and noone really understanding what others are facing.

It is hard when dealing with BYB's as even if you KNOW who is BYBing and you report them you are killing how ever many dogs they have.

They may have 2 bitches and 8 pups each,,that all get PTS without a chance. What if you dobbed in 10 BYBers?? That could be 100 pups you sentenced to death.

NOT only that but police/rangers cannot just raid a place without proof. You have to have actually seen the dogs/pups, know they are 'restricted' and sign a statement to appear in court as a witness!!! That can end up in alot of retaliation.

I know one lady who had her own dogs baited after she reported her neighbours, and her dogs were just little fluffy things, not restricted at all.

It's not really just about APBT/cross owners making a stand. After the APBT/crosses are gone, there will still be dog attacks, and the next breed, singled out, will be placed on BSL.

I am NOT saying that as a cop out, like I have seen others mention, but as the truth. As long as there are irresponsible owners of ANY breed of dog, there will always be attacks and BSL will just keep moving down the list.

AST are safe for now BUT most States/Council when they wrote out their papers on "pit type breeds" actually thought it included AST. It wasn't until they began killing them too, that people stood up and proved they were a 'different' breed BUT some Councils will still fight on this. Like that poor AST been in jail (basically) for 5years now, waiting to be able to go home.

Some Councils thought that ANY dog whose breed mentioned 'bull terrier' was included.

So if this BSL sticks we have a fairly good idea which dogs will be next!!!!

Hopefully, something will be worked out.

I hate seeing any animal die for no reason, let alone thousands upon thousands of them.

[rottiadora]

The debate was between myslef and rottidora. and my point was made. Many people jumped aboard rottidoras boat and that is; denial.

No denial. No debate needed. I have stated in previous posts that they have to be watched with strange dogs and other animals. Their are exceptions, but mostly that is the rule with the APBT and AmStaff and to a lesser extent the SBT. So what?

I'm surprised you haven't picked on my beloved Rotties.

Did you know they rank consistantly high up in the attack per capita lists. Higher than Pit Bulls. But then so do many other breeds.

Like I said no denial here.

WHAT SORT OF BREED DO YOU OWN??? Be honest and up front.

Edited December 4, 2009 by rottiadora

[Diablo]

The debate was between myslef and rottidora. and my point was made. Many people jumped aboard rottidoras boat and that is; denial.

No denial. No debate needed. I have stated in previous posts that they have to be watched with strange dogs and other animals. Their are exceptions, but mostly that is the rule with the APBT and AmStaff and to a lesser extent the SBT. So what?

I'm surprised you haven't picked on my beloved Rotties.

Did you know they rank consistantly high up in the attack per capita lists. Higher than Pit Bulls. But then so do many other breeds.

Like I said no denial here.

WHAT SORT OF BREED DO YOU OWN??? Be honest and up front.

What annoys me with the majority of APBT owners and supporters is the rose coloured glasses they wear for the breed which is denial, no question or debate. I love GSD's which can also be bloody dangerous dogs in the wrong hands without effective training and are not nice gentle souls that love everyone, like the APBT brigade try and lead everyone to believe with their breed of choice. Of course with a well bred APBT, well trained and owned by responsible people there will be some terrific dogs and trustworthy family pets that don't deserve to be effected by BSL, but there are also some horrible examples of the breed out there attractive to people who want to own a dangerous dog and choose the APBT for the wrong reasons to contend with too.

I don't like hearing of GSD attacks either, but in the wrong hands for the wrong reasons, they can be very dangerous, but seriously, if the desire is to get anywhere with the APBT and BSL, a charade of how wonderful the breed is and how out of character it is for a fighting dog to fight etc etc, is really a stupid argument. The "TRUTH" along with open education about the breed would have in my opinion a greater chance of being addressed in a manner of some credability. The GSD was once a banned breed and their supporters got off their bums and promoted the breed heavily in a favourable light with patience and dedication to lift the ban sucessfully. The APBT supporters could do the same if they had the motivation to do so???.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Diablo

[tybrax]

The debate was between myslef and rottidora. and my point was made. Many people jumped aboard rottidoras boat and that is; denial.

No denial. No debate needed. I have stated in previous posts that they have to be watched with strange dogs and other animals. Their are exceptions, but mostly that is the rule with the APBT and AmStaff and to a lesser extent the SBT. So what?

I'm surprised you haven't picked on my beloved Rotties.

Did you know they rank consistantly high up in the attack per capita lists. Higher than Pit Bulls. But then so do many other breeds.

Like I said no denial here.

WHAT SORT OF BREED DO YOU OWN??? Be honest and up front.

What annoys me with the majority of APBT owners and supporters is the rose coloured glasses they wear for the breed which is denial, no question or debate. I love GSD's which can also be bloody dangerous dogs in the wrong hands without effective training and are not nice gentle souls that love everyone, like the APBT brigade try and lead everyone to believe with their breed of choice. Of course with a well bred APBT, well trained and owned by responsible people there will be some terrific dogs and trustworthy family pets that don't deserve to be effected by BSL, but there are also some horrible examples of the breed out there attractive to people who want to own a dangerous dog and choose the APBT for the wrong reasons to contend with too.

I don't like hearing of GSD attacks either, but in the wrong hands for the wrong reasons, they can be very dangerous, but seriously, if the desire is to get anywhere with the APBT and BSL, a charade of how wonderful the breed is and how out of character it is for a fighting dog to fight etc etc, is really a stupid argument. The "TRUTH" along with open education about the breed would have in my opinion a greater chance of being addressed in a manner of some credability. The GSD was once a banned breed and their supporters got off their bums and promoted the breed heavily in a favourable light with patience and dedication to lift the ban sucessfully. The APBT supporters could do the same if they had the motivation to do so???.

No one is in denial, what's with the rose coloured glasses thats just a joke.

As for fighting BSL its all going good maybe you should take some time to read my posts and website ..

Any breed can be dangerous in the wrong hands."ANY BREED''

tybrax

[Diablo]

The debate was between myslef and rottidora. and my point was made. Many people jumped aboard rottidoras boat and that is; denial.

No denial. No debate needed. I have stated in previous posts that they have to be watched with strange dogs and other animals. Their are exceptions, but mostly that is the rule with the APBT and AmStaff and to a lesser extent the SBT. So what?

I'm surprised you haven't picked on my beloved Rotties.

Did you know they rank consistantly high up in the attack per capita lists. Higher than Pit Bulls. But then so do many other breeds.

Like I said no denial here.

WHAT SORT OF BREED DO YOU OWN??? Be honest and up front.

What annoys me with the majority of APBT owners and supporters is the rose coloured glasses they wear for the breed which is denial, no question or debate. I love GSD's which can also be bloody dangerous dogs in the wrong hands without effective training and are not nice gentle souls that love everyone, like the APBT brigade try and lead everyone to believe with their breed of choice. Of course with a well bred APBT, well trained and owned by responsible people there will be some terrific dogs and trustworthy family pets that don't deserve to be effected by BSL, but there are also some horrible examples of the breed out there attractive to people who want to own a dangerous dog and choose the APBT for the wrong reasons to contend with too.

I don't like hearing of GSD attacks either, but in the wrong hands for the wrong reasons, they can be very dangerous, but seriously, if the desire is to get anywhere with the APBT and BSL, a charade of how wonderful the breed is and how out of character it is for a fighting dog to fight etc etc, is really a stupid argument. The "TRUTH" along with open education about the breed would have in my opinion a greater chance of being addressed in a manner of some credability. The GSD was once a banned breed and their supporters got off their bums and promoted the breed heavily in a favourable light with patience and dedication to lift the ban sucessfully. The APBT supporters could do the same if they had the motivation to do so???.

No one is in denial, what's with the rose coloured glasses thats just a joke.

As for fighting BSL its all going good maybe you should take some time to read my posts and website ..

Any breed can be dangerous in the wrong hands."ANY BREED''

tybrax

Great Tybrax, PM me when you overturn the BSL

Edited December 4, 2009 by Diablo

[Nannas]

Hi Diablo,

There's a lot of differences between the GSD ban and the pit type BSL.

I think the most major is that there weren't really mis-identified attacks reported as GSD attacks.

Most people can quite easily identify a GSD or cross when they see one. So the only attacks credited against the GSD were actual GSD attacks.

With pit types almost any attack is first assumed to be a pit attack. It is not until later when tests are done that it is proven true or false, BUT by then it is too late. Reporters have already 'plastered' the new pit attack all over the news. If only they made as much of a 'news report' over the true findings and thier mistake on earlier reports!!

If you actually google for the newspaper reports of pit attacks in Australia (the ones you remember) over the last few years, you will find most of them have been changed. (the online version anyway) Most people will still tell you about this pit attack or that pit attack they heard on the news or read in the paper,, yet the majority of those 'reported' were later found the dogs were not pit at all. No paper or news report made a big "ooops we were wrong" report. They quietly change their online version and noone ever gets to see it.

That never happened with the GSD. The GSD ban was began over the first attacks, most of those GSD being PTS and GSD owners being watched closely. With no (or little) mis-identified attacks the GSD had the chance to prove itself. The pit isn't getting that chance.

I also think for the 'idiot' irresponsible dog owners (of any dog) large dogs like GSD are too much for them to handle. Too hard to hide, cost too much to feed/care for, easily identifiable. These people seem to want the smaller/medium sized dog they can hide under their house, feed nothing but scraps and tell others it's a pit but try and pass as a staffy cross when police/rangers enquire.

Although BSL isn't working and some are backing for it's overturn, I doubt it will happen now or that easily.

If right now they drop BSL and state it was a mistake,,,,imagine the people that would try and sue for the damages (desexing/death) to their dogs. Especially those that could prove their dog wasn't pit type. People who had their dog PTS last week, yet they drop BSL today!!

It may not work, but there would be alot trying to sue. All the money people spent to comply with the laws of BSL then it gets dropped as a failure??????

The Government has to watch it's own butt and I am sure their advisors have warned them of the backlash.

I think we need the Councils to get tougher with ALL dog breeds/owners before anything will get better.

Last year here of all the dogs admitted in the pound only 10% were microchipped. Only 12% were registered.

That leaves over 80% of dogs found wandering the street or dumped at the pound, that were niether microchipped or registered.

C'mon people!!!!! That is just ridiculous!!!!!

WE need to make sure that every one be made repsonsible and accountable for their dog/s.

Those who aren't responsible should be banned from owning dogs. I think anyone that is caught with any type of illegal dog, caught abusing/neglecting a dog (or any animal) or encouraging fighting/attacking, should not only be fined, (maybe jailed) but banned from owning any animal for atleast 5 years.

Harsh I know, but I really think it is time for something to be done to punish the owners and not the dogs.

[tybrax]

Great Tybrax, PM me when you overturn the BSL.

Sarcasm at its best l suppose.

Where did l say l was going to overturn BSL?????

[RottnBullies]

Great Tybrax, PM me when you overturn the BSL

Being a SMART ASS ain't going to get you anywhere

For the record I ain't got rose coloured glasses on, and neither am I In denial of anything!

The APBT brigade as you call it, know their breed, know their history and know what they are capable of doing in the wrong hands!

Now you tell me how Is that In any shape or form being in denial??

They also know that a well bred well socialized and trained APBT make great family pets, and have done so In many generations.

[Diablo]

Great Tybrax, PM me when you overturn the BSL

Being a SMART ASS ain't going to get you anywhere

For the record I ain't got rose coloured glasses on, and neither am I In denial of anything!

The APBT brigade as you call it, know their breed, know their history and know what they are capable of doing in the wrong hands! Now you tell me how Is that In any shape or form being in denial??

They also know that a well bred well socialized and trained APBT make great family pets, and have done so In many generations.

Tell us what they are capable of doing in the wrong hands RottnBullies, educate me on the subject, no one else is very forthcoming on that issue..............it's generally, oh it couldn't be a Pit, how did they determine breed, all the cover up's imaginable which amounts to denial. So now is your chance for some transparency into the APBT, lets hear it please

[Nannas]

Hi Diablo,

I guess this is where everything does appear to be seen through 'rose coloured glasses'.

I actually know quite a few people who own pits/crosses who have NO IDEA at all about any dog really.

Of course they hate BSL like most others but their reasoning is different.

One guy who has now had 2 pits and is planning on another told me "you can't feed a pit raw meat, that's what gives them the taste for blood, then they attack things" another told me "if you kick the sh#t out of them often enough they are too scared to do anything" (the list could go on, and on)

So it all goes back to the 'uneducated' owners, of ANY dog.

APBT, like any other dog is capable of horrid damage to people, animals and furniture.

The problems are that some people should NOT be allowed to own any animal, let alone a dog.

[doit4thedogz]

The debate was between myslef and rottidora. and my point was made. Many people jumped aboard rottidoras boat and that is; denial.

No denial. No debate needed. I have stated in previous posts that they have to be watched with strange dogs and other animals. Their are exceptions, but mostly that is the rule with the APBT and AmStaff and to a lesser extent the SBT. So what?

I'm surprised you haven't picked on my beloved Rotties.

Did you know they rank consistantly high up in the attack per capita lists. Higher than Pit Bulls. But then so do many other breeds.

Like I said no denial here.

WHAT SORT OF BREED DO YOU OWN??? Be honest and up front.

atleast you now admit that the apbt is no staffy.

[Diablo]

Hi Diablo,

I guess this is where everything does appear to be seen through 'rose coloured glasses'.

I actually know quite a few people who own pits/crosses who have NO IDEA at all about any dog really.

Of course they hate BSL like most others but their reasoning is different.

One guy who has now had 2 pits and is planning on another told me "you can't feed a pit raw meat, that's what gives them the taste for blood, then they attack things" another told me "if you kick the sh#t out of them often enough they are too scared to do anything" (the list could go on, and on)

So it all goes back to the 'uneducated' owners, of ANY dog.

APBT, like any other dog is capable of horrid damage to people, animals and furniture.

The problems are that some people should NOT be allowed to own any animal, let alone a dog.

Good post Nannas, that summerises the situation very well, I agree

[rottiadora]

atleast you now admit that the apbt is no staffy.

But they do have a lot in common. Both in history and behaviour.

I have seen staffies that would equal an APBT when it comes dog/animal aggression and locking on (strength excluded).

Many staffy owners don the rose coloured glasses. They are prone to it too.

Anyone who truly knows and understands the staffy would not deny this.

Staffies are great little fighters and hunters

The British "brotha's" like the Staffy too. (the dog on the right)

Edited December 6, 2009 by rottiadora

[luvmeveges]

atleast you now admit that the apbt is no staffy.

But they do have a lot in common. Both in history and behaviour.

I have seen staffies that would equal an APBT when it comes dog/animal aggression and locking on (strength excluded).

Many staffy owners don the rose coloured glasses. They are prone to it too.

Anyone who truly knows and understands the staffy would not deny this.

Not denying anything. I'm accept of all my staffies moods. Good and bad.

[chrisjc]

doit4thedogs, i wouldnt expect you to know what i was going on about , you never do, you simply disect words out of peoples posts , and comment on those words only not the overall meaning of the post.

and it wasnt just a debate between you and Rotiadora, even you had stated on the previous page that this is infact a public forum for all so it was for everyone to read and to comment on, not just you and someone else. [you may have forgot that post but it was the page before your private debate.]

the truth of the matter is you openly come and make outlandish statements about something you have clearly just an opinion, i have seen no positive posts by you ever in regards to this thread or any bsl type threads whatsoever besides bashing the owners of these dogs, you dont want to help you simply want to go fishing , throw a few claims out point a few fingers then wait for someone to take the bait.

i do respect the laws of our nation , if you would go back and read or even remember, my situation i have followed the rules and laws in every way, and i am suffering because my dog has had to stay back where she is registered, because queensland will not take new registrations regardless of the track record of the owner or the dog, or any history of training the dog has.

this is something you would know nothing about...................ever.

so as you maybee fully entiteled to your opinion, until you come and walk a mile in my shoes or someone else's that has been a victim, because their dog "looked the part" or had to move or get their family pet pts because of its breed, you will never fully understand it.

But i would never expect you too the only thing you seem to bring to the argument, is the same thing post after post, thread after thread.

bashing the owners over and over again will get you nowhere , ive said it before but i will repeat myself for the sake of it,

all you seem to say is that the owners have got to take responsibility for themselves and they do nothing about it.

the owners you are talking about would not be in such a forum ,just incase you havent figured that out on your own! those kind of owners are too busy picking out a studded collar or shopping for a new chain for their dogs.

the owners that are here from what i can gather ARE of the desirable kind in fact we are no different to any other dog owner who is responsible, we are actually more responsible because we have to be, our dogs lives at stake if we make an error.

so start bringing something else to the table besides the same thing weve all read before, if you think you are getting sick of it , just imagine how we feel?

and if you want to keep harping on about it , go for it but come up with some constructive points instead of saying whats been said.

and something i would like your opinions on: How would we , the responsible owners make a difference on the irresponsible ones? what do you think we could do? how can you make them listen?

Edited December 6, 2009 by chrisjc

[doit4thedogz]

if you guys know the breed so well. jst think really hard to yourselves and be honest with yourselves and you'll know why the breed is where it is today.

[chrisjc]

what a senseless post! to think that i am such a fool as to not know that makes me wonder about your motives? of course we know why we are were we are but i am to blame as much as you in this regard. I can go about my ways for years to come and it will make no difference on dickheads buying dogs for the wrong reasons, you just cant seem to grasp that can you.

but since you are so upto date on the situation why dont you tell me what i can do, youve already assumed i know little with your question so im guessing youve got a plan mapped out for me.

what some of you dont seem to realise is that leaving it to us to dig our way out of a hole we didnt dig ourselves , the only similarity is the type of dog i own.

the problem is better tackled by owners of all breeds jumping on board with their experience and understanding that all dogs have the chance to bite, attack and maim, not just the few that seem to make the headlines, support needs to come from all dog people not just the ones whos pets lives are at stake.

another thing you cant seem to grasp, is if or more than likely when this breed is "bred out of existence" in our country because it is no longer around it will obviously be replaced with another breed which will then be classed as the most dangerous , and when thats gone another, its not solving the real problem.

my biggest gripe is that no one gives a rats until its them who is in the firing line before they have something good to do or say.

the truth is the percentage of Apbt owners seems to be the undesirable type, so obviously us "desirable" owners go unoticed, doesnt mean we are not around, and it certainly doesnt mean we should have to suffer because no one would help us when we will openly admit its not something we can tackle on our own.

i would assume that you wouldnt have a clue about it, but there are actually lots and lots of Apbt owners that are too scared to even admit their breed or even worse go deeper underground to protect their beloved family pet. thre are also plenty of other decent folk who have allready been beaten down that low with it they will break the laws and continue to own and breed their animals in the background because they feel we have allready been beaten.

you may comment against that but it is a reality, and put it into perspective by summing up what you would have to go through to get to that stage?

i even have people that have stopped being around me, because i write letters, and openly state my stance they see me as someone who will be targeted in the future regardless of wheather i follow the rules.

[rottiadora]

if you guys know the breed so well. jst think really hard to yourselves and be honest with yourselves and you'll know why the breed is where it is today.

What breed do you own?

[chrisjc]

and i think having ago at Tybrax about overturning bsl, is a punch below the belt, Tybrax has been involved in anti bsl stuff as long as ive been around the dogs and has been active in anti bsl stuff the whole time, and i will say confidently shes done more than anyone else here when it comes down to the crunch. so if you dont agree fine leave it there but joking about someone thats done more than you on the subject is just wrong.