Thinking About This Whole Pit Bull Thing

[Steve]

So what would you class as a reputable Apbt breeder?

A. a breeder that line breeds game dogs? Has some proof of atleast 4 generations.

or

B. a BYB that breeds his more placid but "scatterbred" likely unpure pitbulls.

Neither of those silly examples of yours. But, in answer to your question .

A reputable APBT/Amstaff/Rotti/ANY BREED breeder is:

1. One who at all times, would have a goal of breeding to improve, restore or develop the breeds via a process of selection over successive generations and, before breeding a litter, would give serious and equal consideration to construction, temperament, health and soundness, in the choice of breeding stock. Will always bear in mind that aggression and nervousness form no part in temperament and character of any dog. Should aim all breeding to the improvement of the breed

2. No bitch would be mated without due consideration as to the well being of the bitch and her offspring.

3. Would not deliberately in-breed with mother to son, father to daughter or brother to sister unless he/she has clear & substantive reasons.

4. Would agree that he/she will never provide false information regarding the parentage of the litter.

5. Would not breed a litter unless he/she were certain of finding good homes for the puppies. As the owner of stud dog(s) he/she would make it very clear to the bitch owners of the commitment and facilities necessary to rear a litter.

Would never allow any puppy to leave the premises to go to a new home before the age of 8 weeks. No puppy should be sold without having had its first vaccination and regular-worming treatments and would provide documented evidence of such to the purchaser.

6. Would never supply a puppy without a diet sheet. A full and accurate puppy care sheet(s) would be supplied to the purchaser, outlining health care information, heartworm control, flea control, reasons for desexing, microchip information, etc.

7. Would provide a full and detailed health record of any puppy he/she sell's to the purchaser showing a complete history of that pup from the date of whelping to the date of delivery. And will keep breeding and health records for all dogs in care.

8. Would provide a written health guarantee for every pup bred and sold. Provide on going support and advice for the life of the pup.

9. Never knowingly sell any puppy/adult dog to laboratories, pet shops or dealers in dogs or to person's known to sell stock to any of the above. Shall not provide any stud services to such persons (a dealer is defined as any person who regularly buys stock for sale at a profit).

10. Screen prospective buyers for suitability and shall fully advise them of the characteristics of the dog as a breed stressing the necessity for care, grooming and ample exercise. Register all pups with the breed's registering body unless they are disqualified from registration due to a non recognized colour. Supply the buyer with the dog's registration papers from the breeds' registrar unless this is not practicable in which case would provide an endorsed copy to the buyer . would also clearly state whether the puppy is on limited register or full register (where applicable) and explain the benefits and restrictions of that register.

11. Would never allow a puppy or adult which has any apparent physical defects or which shows definite departure from the Breed Standard to be knowingly sold without the buyer being made aware of such defects and its possible consequences. Will only sell puppies and adults, which, to the best of his/her knowledge and belief are in good health at the time of sale.

12. Would impress on the buyer that they should contact me in the event of any problem arising with the puppy or adult and make every effort to be of assistance in these circumstances. In the case of a dog needing to be re-homed, will take full responsibility to assist as much as possible in achieving this end and will accept the return of that dog at any age if this in any way possible.

13. Advertising would be strictly factual. I will not use misleading exaggeration or unfounded implications of superiority. would not promote the dogs as something they are not.

14. Would refrain from making negative or malicious statements about other breeder's, their dogs or practices.

15. Would be co-operative in any measures aimed at eradicating hereditary diseases or genetic defects. Would seek information and understanding of genetic diseases and defects and use this understanding in my breeding program. Would commit themselves to a positive breeding program aimed at eradicating such hereditary diseases or defects known or suspected within my breed.

16. Would be honest and forthright in notifying any genetic or heritable diseases found to be in any dogs I have bred and pass on any information required to help breeders make necessary choices in their breeding program.

17. Would not breed a litter unless he/she had the time and facilities to devote proper care and attention to the rearing of the puppies and to the well being of the dam.

18. Any dog/puppy in his/her care would receive immediate professional attention should it become ill.

19. Would continue to offer helpful assistance to any puppy/adult dog buyer as long as such assistance is required.

20. All dogs in the breeders care would be adequately housed in clean, comfortable and weatherproof accommodation with a minimum of 2 hours off lead and exercise with appropriate stimulation and companionship per day.

21. All dogs in care would be under control at all times, housing and exercise areas kept clean and all care taken to limit possible disturbance to neighbours.

22. Would lead by example and advocate responsible dog ownership.

23. Would microchip all animals as prescribed by law. All follow up paper work will be fulfilled and sent to the appropriate canine authority.

24. Would exhibit and promote excellence in the discipline and practice of dog breeding.

25. Would encourage the exchange of knowledge, of technical, practical and ethical matters between breeders.

26. Would act and advise in accordance and within the parameters of his/her experience.

Thanks for the free plug for the MDBA Rottieadora. Its a good code isnt it?

www.mdba.net.au

[Steve]

So what would you class as a reputable Apbt breeder?

A. a breeder that line breeds game dogs? Has some proof of atleast 4 generations.

or

B. a BYB that breeds his more placid but "scatterbred" likely unpure pitbulls.

Neither of those silly examples of yours. But, in answer to your question .

In this country. those two are the main types of Apbt breeders. So what is your definition of an Apbt suitable as a family pet. Because the closest thing to a purebred APbt in this country is one that is line bred from game dogs, either direct from game dogs or a couple pf generations away. Unless your definition of an Apbt is a BYB breeder with not account of his dog's pedigree, their dogs may be more placid and friendlier but likely to be more mixed and not as close to an Apbt.

And the definition you gave of an ideal breeder. How many breeders both registered and not fit the profile?

They number about 1000 now.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Steve

[RottnBullies]

The more you talk, the more you show how little experience you have with the breed and how little you know about dogs as a whole. Quit before you get any further behind.

Thats great if your dog doesnt react to other dogs. Must of be the hienz variety.

The more I read your posts, the worse they're getting..............Dribble

I guess all those Michael Vick Pits that were saved from the scum fighting them MUST ALL be of the Heinze variety too, as I remember many were re homed in multiple dog homes................go figure

If line bred dogs are no different to scatter bred dogs, why line breed at all?? why not just breed currs to currs to scatterbreds etc. Whats the point of Apbt breeders trying to line breed dogs?

What are you on about?

Off course all breeding should be done knowing history of both dam and sire

Responsible APBT breeders who have their dogs best Interest at heart would be doing this, among many other things!

APBT's are no more or less difficult to train than any other dog breed. Early socialization, training and monitoring their interactions with other dogs Is needed and each dog should be treated as an Individual. They need a kind hand and they will excel at anything. They strive to be around people and are always eager to please their master. Saying that all APBT will attack anything that moves Is nothing short of rubbish!

Children + Dogs + Unsupervised = A disaster waiting to happen, and that's any breed of dog,

They have been used to sniff out bombs and drugs, used by the military and even police forces, many used as therapy and service dogs, they are great at weight pulling, agility,

schutzhund, and obedience. They also always score highly on the American Temperament Test. If they were such a bad dog, they wouldn't have been used In any of those tasks

Lastly, and I can't leave this one out, because to me that's what makes them so darn great In personality Is that they're bloody clowns!

[tybrax]

The more you talk, the more you show how little experience you have with the breed and how little you know about dogs as a whole. Quit before you get any further behind.

Thats great if your dog doesnt react to other dogs. Must of be the hienz variety.

The more I read your posts, the worse they're getting..............Dribble

I guess all those Michael Vick Pits that were saved from the scum fighting them MUST ALL be of the Heinze variety too, as I remember many were re homed in multiple dog homes................go figure

If line bred dogs are no different to scatter bred dogs, why line breed at all?? why not just breed currs to currs to scatterbreds etc. Whats the point of Apbt breeders trying to line breed dogs?

What are you on about?

Off course all breeding should be done knowing history of both dam and sire

Responsible APBT breeders who have their dogs best Interest at heart would be doing this, among many other things!

APBT's are no more or less difficult to train than any other dog breed. Early socialization, training and monitoring their interactions with other dogs Is needed and each dog should be treated as an Individual. They need a kind hand and they will excel at anything. They strive to be around people and are always eager to please their master. Saying that all APBT will attack anything that moves Is nothing short of rubbish!

Children + Dogs + Unsupervised = A disaster waiting to happen, and that's any breed of dog,

They have been used to sniff out bombs and drugs, used by the military and even police forces, many used as therapy and service dogs, they are great at weight pulling, agility,

schutzhund, and obedience. They also always score highly on the American Temperament Test. If they were such a bad dog, they wouldn't have been used In any of those tasks

Lastly, and I can't leave this one out, because to me that's what makes them so darn great In personality Is that they're bloody clowns!

[doit4thedogz]

The more you talk, the more you show how little experience you have with the breed and how little you know about dogs as a whole. Quit before you get any further behind.

Thats great if your dog doesnt react to other dogs. Must of be the hienz variety.

The more I read your posts, the worse they're getting..............Dribble

I guess all those Michael Vick Pits that were saved from the scum fighting them MUST ALL be of the Heinze variety too, as I remember many were re homed in multiple dog homes................go figure

If line bred dogs are no different to scatter bred dogs, why line breed at all?? why not just breed currs to currs to scatterbreds etc. Whats the point of Apbt breeders trying to line breed dogs?

What are you on about?

Off course all breeding should be done knowing history of both dam and sire

Responsible APBT breeders who have their dogs best Interest at heart would be doing this, among many other things!

APBT's are no more or less difficult to train than any other dog breed. Early socialization, training and monitoring their interactions with other dogs Is needed and each dog should be treated as an Individual. They need a kind hand and they will excel at anything. They strive to be around people and are always eager to please their master. Saying that all APBT will attack anything that moves Is nothing short of rubbish!

Children + Dogs + Unsupervised = A disaster waiting to happen, and that's any breed of dog,

They have been used to sniff out bombs and drugs, used by the military and even police forces, many used as therapy and service dogs, they are great at weight pulling, agility,

schutzhund, and obedience. They also always score highly on the American Temperament Test. If they were such a bad dog, they wouldn't have been used In any of those tasks

Lastly, and I can't leave this one out, because to me that's what makes them so darn great In personality Is that they're bloody clowns!

My point being (Same point im making to rottiadora) Apbts are selectively bred for certain traits that make them unsuitable to your average family. Seems like you and rottiadora seem to think there is no difference between a gamebred dog and a scatterbred pitbull. Many breeders of working dogs will agree that certain working dogs and bloodlines will not be suitable to your "average" family.

It will be hard to train the fight out of an Apbt compared to other dogs. Just like you cant train the fight into a dog. Its either there or not. You can do all the right things, training, socialisation etc. then when the time is right all those things won't matter and all you can do is muzzle and keep away from other dogs.

Ofcourse some particular Apbts can be trained to 'sniff out bombs and drugs, used by the military and even police forces, many used as therapy and service dogs, they are great at weight pulling, agility'. A chihuahua could probably do them also. There maybe individual apbts (or lookalikes unless they have a pedigree) that are suitable for those particular roles. TRainers may assess and give a particular dog a chance that doesn't mean the breed as a whole is suitable and excels at that role.

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

A Fila could be trained to be a guide dog. But would the breed as a whole be suitable guide dogs? Why not use a labradore.

If Apbt ownerd want the breed to be a mutlitasked allrounder I think they should be breeding away from certain qualities and more towards other qualities. I have yet to see that in Australia.

[rottiadora]

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

Edited November 10, 2009 by rottiadora

[luvmeveges]

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

Too right they have.

[tybrax]

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

Too right they have.

l second that.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

Spot on rottiadora

[RottnBullies]

It will be hard to train the fight out of an Apbt compared to other dogs. Just like you cant train the fight into a dog. Its either there or not. You can do all the right things, training, socialisation etc. then when the time is right all those things won't matter and all you can do is muzzle and keep away from other dogs.

Ofcourse some particular Apbts can be trained to 'sniff out bombs and drugs, used by the military and even police forces, many used as therapy and service dogs, they are great at weight pulling, agility'. A chihuahua could probably do them also. There maybe individual apbts (or lookalikes unless they have a pedigree) that are suitable for those particular roles. TRainers may assess and give a particular dog a chance that doesn't mean the breed as a whole is suitable and excels at that role.

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

A Fila could be trained to be a guide dog. But would the breed as a whole be suitable guide dogs? Why not use a labradore.

If Apbt ownerd want the breed to be a mutlitasked allrounder I think they should be breeding away from certain qualities and more towards other qualities. I have yet to see that in Australia.

Have you any Idea how ridiculous your argument there Is, I've only highlighted the one but I'm sure a Chihuahua can do and fulfill all those roles too ( No offense to Chihuahua lovers out there either )

I have no Interest In flogging a dead horse, nor do I have the Interest to try and win you over Into the heart of the APBT.

And lastly APBT's are one of the greatest all rounders In the dog world, they always have been and always will be, they have the desire to succeed In everything they do, even when the odds are stacked against them, and that Is what makes them so great out there In the working field.........and when the day Is over they make great lap dogs and couch potatoes too IN A FAMILY ENVIRONMENT !

[APBT]

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

american pitbulls have been my family's choice of dog since my grand father was a teen.

And alot of family friends have them as well with no problems what so ever.

[APBT]

Doit4thedogs have you ever owned a APBT??

ive asked probly over 15 times of his/her relationship to the breed and am still to get an asswer.

shows just how full of it he/she is

[tybrax]

The question must be to hard...

[amy_h]

Amy , i live in brisbane, but due to the laws in qld, my dog is in south australia, my home state. i had a choice to bring her or leave her and as i have done the right thing in regards to following restrictions ect in sa, i thought it would be reversing all my hard work to break the laws when moving to qld.

it wasnt a decision that was taken lightly but was the right thing to do, my apbt is living with my two best friends who are both miners, so because they are on alternate shifts she has someone with her pretty much twenty four hours a day, which im sure she loves!

Thank you, i'm glad to hear you are doing the right thing for your puppy until she can be with you again I understand how hard it can be to rehome a dog because i did that with warren for 12 months while i lived in charters.

You should be commeded for your attitude to fighting bsl and wanting the best for yourdog

Lo pan - btw - i am offended that you would disregard my comments from my meter reader friend - he's actually my father in law with EXTENSIVE experience dogs in all situations - good homes, poor homes and just personally i have found his experiences are similar to mine, and having worked on numrous properties as a shearing shed hand and stationhand, among other previous careers, and with our past time and the people we socialise with being hunting, you should undesrtand that dogs are our life, our dogs are hard working, and our furkids.

The reason we have breeds and breeding standards are to determine how the particular puppy we select SHOULD turn out. ALL BREEDS have negatives and positives. And in my experience regardless of the homes the dogs come from they can USUALLY be classed by breed. THATs why you have all chosen a APBT as your breed of choice, their qualities appeal to you. But you can't deny that tenacity is a breed quality that might make them less suitable for every family environment. So why are you so taken aback by my comment that My father in Law can't generalise by breed? he calls it as he sees it. You promote all APBT from your experience with them, why can't he be wary of dogs becasue of HIS previous experience with other members of the breed?

[Zhou Xuanyao]

I am offended that you would try and pass off his prejudice and false breed specific allegations as fact on this forum by talking up his "credentials".

[rottiadora]

My electricity meter reader says he has the most trouble with Cattledogs, Border Collies and little fluffies.

I asked about Pitties, Rotties and hunting dogs. He said that he didn't rate them in his "be wary of" list.

He also said that if a Bully type dog doesn't want you in there yard, he'll tell you before you go in.

Whereas a working breed will let you in, only to not let you out again without a nip to the hind quarters.

Edited November 13, 2009 by rottiadora

[amy_h]

I am offended that you would try and pass off his prejudice and false breed specific allegations as fact on this forum by talking up his "credentials".

How are they false? after 25 years of walking into peoples backyards every weekday,and owning bull breed dogs himself, i would think that would be some kind of experience with how dogs react to strangers entering their yard, I suppose i'd better say dogs of type that looked like the breed they could have been cos it's not like he has seen their papers whatever. Don't we all get on here and go APBT this and how wonderful and blah blah - same thing isn't it? we're only basing our opinion on our experience and EVERYBODY generalises dogs by breed - if you don't think you do, you'd be lying. I will say all Neo's are wonderful right now, but i only own one and have only met about 12 is it fair for me to base my opinion, positive or negative, on 12 individuals? no probably not but EVERYONE is guilty of it. but pffft. whatever you reckon i'm not going to argue about it anymore.

The original issue when i started this thread was BYB and the affect it has on the reason the breed is considered dangerous. And i wasn't bagging APBT- I personally wouldn't own one, but if you want one, fine. But in the mean time until BSL is abolished or whatever, Why buy one where you have so many restriction son how the dog must be kept thereby affecting it's quality of life, and then whinge about BSL? Fair enough if you already owned the dog before BSL came in and did the right thing like chris, but why add to the problem?

Edited November 13, 2009 by amy_h

[J.H.M]

My electricity meter reader says he has the most trouble with Cattledogs, Border Collies and little fluffies.

I asked about Pitties, Rotties and hunting dogs. He said that he didn't rate them in his "be wary of" list.

He also said that if a Bully type dog doesn't want you in there yard, he'll tell you before you go in.

Whereas a working breed will let you in, only to not let you out again without a nip to the hind quarters.

I remember calling energex and letting them know that a dog was living at my premises now, and the lady asked what sort of dog and when I said staffy she started laughing saying the meter reader would be in more danger of being licked to death.

Edited November 13, 2009 by JRM75

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Don't we all get on here and go APBT this and how wonderful and blah blah

Not all of us apparently.

EVERYBODY generalises dogs by breed - if you don't think you do, you'd be lying.

And thats called "projecting".

The statements made by your father in law are foolish and false. It is the minority of dogs of any breed that would be happy about a stranger walking into thier yard. "Border collies", "Pitbulls", "Cattle dogs", ect he says "you have to watch" pfft good on ya. And what about Schnauzers, Dobermans, Neo's, and Kelpies ? Dont have to watch them ?

The guy knows jack, that was my first impression when I read your post and its even more evident now, he doesnt "get it" and niether do you.

You have made various far fetched (read - catagorically false) claims, for instance, "Pitbulls are a guardian breed". No cred, end of story

[doit4thedogz]

There are more suitable breeds to fufill particular roles. And certain breeds are more popular for certain roles for a reason.

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs and Staffies have been fulfilling the role of "family dog" for as long as there have been Pit Bulls and Staffies and are well suited.

ANd dont forget apbts have been bred as fighting dogs long before the apbt name even existed right to this day.