Tatelina Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 And i'm pointing the finger at those who breed purely for profit by advertising overpriced pups with no guarantees and promoting their dog's fearsome reputation. Every photo that accompanies such advertisements shows chained dogs (with bloody heavy chains), and highlights the dog's prowess as a 'protector' - These 'Breeders' are the reason the breed has such a hard time promoting the attributes of the breed - rather they focus on promoting the APBT as a fearsome dog, and a cash cow, because the wankers that are breeding them attract further wankers who don't understand the dog's tenacious nature and can't handle them properly and create ill tempered poorly socialised dogs who unfortunately do attack and create more drama for the legitimate pet owners. I think you hit the nail on the head there. When you breed for money sometimes the dollar signs blur your vision of what is ethically right or good for the animal. Happens in many different species! Not just dogs. Ofcourse there are dodgy breeders in every breed of dogs, but the 'rarity' and 'illegal' factor IMO attracts the sorts of people that don't appreciate the breed for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjc Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 there are tons of registries, you can register your apbt with, in the interest of keeping peds ect. obviously the apbt, is not a recignised breed by any aussie kennel clubs ect , but alot of people are interested in the ped of their dogs regardless of whether they are house dogs or hunters, or working dogs. i am against the dual registering thing that the ukc and akc are doing its creating a different "type" when it comes to the dogs looks. if you compare an adba reg dog to a ukc dog and then a akc dog , they all vary alot in looks. i am also against it because there are people who own dual reg dogs so they can own a legal pitbull, and that is the loophole they use, i feel that this is a headway to getting the american staff banned in australia aswell. the last thing we need is another dog added to a list as stupid as the one we allready have. take into account that the only dog on the list in this country that exists is the apbt. and i cant stand for the amstaff owners/breeders but the last thing they need is a spotlight drawn them because their dog is classed as a "show pitbull" sure they have a similar history but that was along time ago they are and should be seperate breeds. these kinds of breeding will also contribute to eventually bringing the fad breeding of "american bullies" the biggest fad dog in america at the moment. i think this would create even more confusion to an already confusing situation on the general publics behalf. funny thing is ive never met a vet that doesnt welcome a apbt or a staff into their workplace. they are simply the most reliable steady temped dogs when it comes to not biting people. what makes me wonder is, what the hell do the owners of the attacking pitbulls do to their dogs to make them so people agressive? i honestly dont think i could make my pitbull that way with any thing short of torturing her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottiadora Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think it's illegal to breed (or advertise/sell) APBT's in the territories, ie: ACT and NT. They only have the nation wide import ban. Edited November 3, 2009 by rottiadora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjc Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 no your not wrong at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Rottiadora I'm a vet nurse and volunteer carer and I've had both close contact and have had many breeds over the years: Pittys, Staffies, Cattledogs, Kelpies, etc and Rotties of course. I can tell you the breeds that stands out as the easiest to treat and most people friendly to be around is the Pitty's and Staffy's. Ask any vet and they will tell you the same thing. They are a terrier so they need be watched around other animals but no more than any other terriers. They are a strong dog and that needs to be taken into account. Wa;lk into a strangers yard with a Cattledog or Pitty. I'd take the Pitty any day. AmStaffy's and Pitty's (as well as their x-breeds) are the two I have to be most careful with especially in the kennel environment. Often high strung, fence climbers, fence biters. Hence we are starting to find that some kennels and obedience clubs are starting to refuse admission to these dogs. I wouldn't be stupid enough to walk into a strangers yard but if i did, I would rather encounter many other breeds and not a Pit. All dogs are capable of biting, however if the amstaff or pitt decide to go they are far more destructive than others. Like pig dogs, they have a tendancy to go for the muzzle ears and head and then hang on and on.... this is not the case with most other breed. As far as trying to have the legislation lifted then the Pit Association should be working like the German Shepherd Club who did mass public relations in different states, by running demo teams and introducing breed and temperament surveys. They had to change the public attitude to get the support. We used to take the demo teams to school/community fetes, Agricultural Shows and shopping centres giving demos on the working and tricks the GSD was capable of, this involved allowing the public (Including kids) to come in and meet and handle our dogs and speak with the owners about how to live with the GSD. The Shepherd Club Members did this for free. Any money raised went to the Guide Dog Association. When the ban was lifted we continued with these displays.... the work wasnt over just because the ban was lifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottiadora Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) 'alpha bet' I guess I'll just have to disagree with you I'm basing my positive opinion of these great breeds on 40 years as a vet nurse, carer, obedience trainer. Yes they can have issues with strange dogs. In an obedience class environment it does take a trainer who knows the breed to teach the owner and dog how to behave around others. They would be are the most people friendly dog breeds their is. As others have stated: I don't know what you have to do to an APBT/AmStaff to make them human aggressive. It's just not in their nature. The dogs we are most careful at treating in the surgery are the lap dogs and the un-socialised "back yard protector" that's been left on the chain. Rotties/ACD's doesn't matter, they're all included. Breed doesn't come into it. Hunting dogs, working dogs, APBT's, AmStaffs, Staffies are some of the easiest. No offence meant but... You seem very negative/overly critical about the APBT, AmStaff and hunting dogs.... Why? If you don't like them, fine. Ridiculing them on an open forum seems a little unfair to me. A bit like kicking them while they're down :D Edited November 3, 2009 by rottiadora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjc Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 if you saw my dog the last thing you would think of her is being high strung or a fence biter. but that is your experience and its not like your the only person who would say it. she would also show any would be thief where all my valuble stuff is, in exchange for a pat, then hold the door open for you with her wagging tail while you put my plasma in the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy_h Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 I have to agree with alphabet - as an owner of pig dogs i will not be naive and deny their capacity for damage. I will add though the likelihood of an incident is lower. A lot of apbt owners argue the dog's capacity as a family protector - and combined with their tenacity, it's not a good combination. Every PB or cross we owned or have encountered through the hunting fraternity have been very hard luggers (to the point they're too hard to get off). APBT and AmStaffs are sensitive dogs that crave attention and without, they get bored and therefore the problems Alpha bet illustrated emerge. I know this is the case with any breed but you can't deny it. It takes a special dedicated owner to bring out the best in these dogs, they're not for everyone, and i don't believe should be promoted as such. The aim is not to create owvership but maintain a sensible educated community of owners and breeders and awareness throughout the wider community ensuring their pups go to knowledgable homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tybrax Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 If you don't like them, fine. Ridiculing them on an open forum seems a little unfair to me. A bit like kicking them while they're down Alpha-bet Often high strung, fence climbers, fence biters. My dogs have never been fence biters, climbers and no they are not highly strung. You may have dealt with APBT/PB's that have done this, but do you honestly think they are all like this? What happened to individuality???? Every PB or cross we owned or have encountered through the hunting fraternity have been very hard luggers (to the point they're too hard to get off). Amy h Your experience with them is hunting, what about family pets??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shocking Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) tybrax... its bp.. whats going on lol man. u r always defending the breed, love that about u. good on u Edited November 5, 2009 by shocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doit4thedogz Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 If you don't like them, fine. Ridiculing them on an open forum seems a little unfair to me. A bit like kicking them while they're down Alpha-bet Often high strung, fence climbers, fence biters. My dogs have never been fence biters, climbers and no they are not highly strung. You may have dealt with APBT/PB's that have done this, but do you honestly think they are all like this? What happened to individuality???? Every PB or cross we owned or have encountered through the hunting fraternity have been very hard luggers (to the point they're too hard to get off). Amy h Your experience with them is hunting, what about family pets??? they can be good pets. not for everyone and shouldnt be promoted as nanny dogs. because they arent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shocking Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs57.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs58.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs53.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...gebulldogs4.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs43.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs25.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs24.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs13.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs15.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs21.jpg Edited November 5, 2009 by shocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumosmum Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs57.jpghttp://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs58.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs53.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...gebulldogs4.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs43.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs25.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs24.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs13.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs15.jpg http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/d...ebulldogs21.jpg Great pics. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjc Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) of course you shouldnt promote them as a nanny dog, but it doesnt hurt to have people state that it is part of their history, if people think its ok to slag off the fighting history and use it as a negative then i think its fine to use the nanny dog history, as a positive. its true but its also irrelevant. at the end of the day the people that are the cause of the problems we have are not buying these dogs because theyare a "nanny" dog they are buying them as an ill informed iresponsible owner, plain and simple. and one thing i dont get is the pig hunters that cross them with a breed whos history is ha and expect to not have problems. real intelegent. there are so many other breeds out there better suited to hunting than these dogs. i find it highly funny that the same people who have claimed "i know about these dogs because i once saw a mean one" or "i watch the news" are the same people that will jump on the banning band wagon like they actually know what they are talking about. the key is prospective dog owners doing their research and buying a dog that suits them and then understanding the breed, wheather its a poodle or a pitbull. i have been around apbt's for long enough to have a REAL opinion on them, not overshadowed by some ill informed reporter who wouldnt know the difference between a pitbull and an en english mastiff. in fifteen years i have never had an incident caused by a apbt, but i have witnessed many owned by other breeds and one thing always shone through.....the owner was an idiot. Edited November 6, 2009 by chrisjc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Theres a guy near me who breeds amstaffs that he uses for pig hunting, pedigreed. He posts on ozziedoggers and is pretty well known as most amstaff breeders just breed for showdogs or to place in pet homes.. I dont see much difference between an amstaff and a pit bull, people crap on aboput pitbulls being bred to be gladiators so dont make good hunting dogs, well select for what you get and you will eventually get it. its also written about in the AST breed extention as a traditional use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy_h Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 If you don't like them, fine. Ridiculing them on an open forum seems a little unfair to me. A bit like kicking them while they're down Alpha-bet Often high strung, fence climbers, fence biters. My dogs have never been fence biters, climbers and no they are not highly strung. You may have dealt with APBT/PB's that have done this, but do you honestly think they are all like this? What happened to individuality???? Every PB or cross we owned or have encountered through the hunting fraternity have been very hard luggers (to the point they're too hard to get off). Amy h Your experience with them is hunting, what about family pets??? Well, i'm not exactly kicking them while they're down - merely being practical in admitting that they aren't a dog for everyone, and shouldn't be promoted as such. Being the mother of a baby i wouldn't allow any of the dogs of any breed or purpose i've ever known to 'nanny' her. As far as the people i know that own dogs, i've been around exclusivley pet APBT and those used for hunting (which are family pets in the meantime), and have always found them defensive of their owners. Not aggressive, but definitely wary in the prescence of strangers. The reason APBT is bred into hunting dogs is their ability to hold. in relation to individuality - you defend the breed on the basis of your own dogs - what about other dogs? we can only base our experiences on dogs we have known. this may be the case for Alpha bet. For example, a dear friend of mine has been an electricity meter reader for 25 years - i would guarantee he would have had the most experience with dogs of anyone you could meet. His conclusions are the ones you have to watch are Border Collies, Cattledogs, Kelpies, then Malamutes, APBT and crossbred dogs. That said, real APBT and obvious crosses aren't as plentiful as these other breeds in the area he reads. This is a man that loves Bull breed dogs - but he will openly contest he always watches PB's with one eye open because in his words, you just can't trust them unattended. That combined with their strength ... you get the picture. These dogs need to be very very well socialised, well fenced because they are great jumpers, they do need to be protected from themselves. My point in saying that is they ARE a guardian breed, which is very loyal to their own family - and what does a guardian do? BSL is not right, but back to my original arguement - if they're not to be bred, sold, they are to be desexed and not imported, by the legislation, aren't you only shooting yourself in the foot by blatantly flaunting the law, through having dogs advertised for sale, breeding dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjc Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 well yes you would be flaunting the law but that would be depending on where you live. NT and ACT it is perfectly legal to buy, breed ,sell or whatever , but yes i doubt that everyone sold would come from these places. apbt and ast are not the same dog in my opinion, from my experience, when shopping for dogs i was looking at both, and i know alot of amstaff breeders through my old business. i feel that the natural traits in an amstaff are very different to the ones that are obvious in an apbt. i chose the apbt because i found them to be better looking more athletic, and seem to be alot goofier, funloving. that is my opinion obviously and you will have your own. i also got a bit fed up with the fact that when i was looking at show bred amstaffs 90% of the people i was looking at litters were all in the local state asossiation and were all "friends" with each other. once i got into their place on my own the knives would fly and whatever they could do to convince me to buy a pup from them they would do even if it meant badmouthing their so called friends. not a comfy environment imho. i travelled interstate and started researching some apbt dogs, and found them to be easier to get along with and, didnt seem to be peddeling the dogs they had. none had pups availible, but i eventually got one from a hunter. in all my years around them i have come across one that was protective, and im sceptical to believe that it was natural and i would be more inclined to think it was from mistreatment than breeding or breed. my first one would maybee be protective of my partner , when walking her, but i think it may have been the handler and not the dog but we never got to the stage to see if she was. my dogs have never protected me or shown signs of it ever , maybee because we have a very obvious pack and they may think i dont need it? i am also what could be portayed and has been by some of my friends, as "anal" about my dogs and how i want them to be portrayed, but i bought into the breed and i feel that it has to be done. i would never feel that i would be fooling myself into thinking that they are a harmless breed and they are not to be taken lightly, but then again neither should alot of other breeds. Amy i see you own a neo, they too are a breed where the owner should be fully aware of what they are like compared to other dogs, and even their differences with other mastiff breeds, in the wrong hands they can be a nervy dog, but in the right hands they can be a very loving family pet as you would know. and as a note; to any amstaff breeders that read this, i am only reflecting on what was my personal experience when i was buying a dog. and i hope this post is not taken as me slagging amstaffs off because i am not, they are in my top three breeds of dog , i just thought the way the people i dealt with couldve been a bit more mature about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy_h Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 would be the first one to agree with you that a neo needs a certain kind of person and environment to excel - warren is lovely a great mate but i wouldn't like to be around when i'm not. But neo's were historically bred to fight and protect. as were apbt. And i am also aware they have been restricted in certain aussie councils, and have been considered for state legislation. Gecko Tree - in relation to pig dogs and adding APBT blood - i'm sure they suit some hunters but not us. a little blood in the mix is great though, just adding that extra 'hardness' but in the pure form in our experience, it's just too much. With Pig dog breeding it's a lot of experimentation to get the right mix. I just hear so many stories where a few years into their lives, including pets from loving homes, just having brainsnaps when it comes to other dogs, one in particular that was very well socialised - was the kind of dog anyone could walk into the yard with but when she was three years old, attacked someone breaking in and then killed another dog in the same week, unfortunately she had to be destroyed. But this is just one example. I know there are out there APBT with more stable temperaments, but even with our extensive experience with dogs of all shapes sizes and histories and backgrounds, i will acknowledge that the breed is being brought down from the inside. AST make great hunters, i don't know what the difference is back there in the history, and they do seem to have a more suitable temperament for less experienced handlers and owners. Thats just my honest opinion. but this thread isn't about that - it's about what can be done to prevent further damage to the breeds reputation - it seems APBT owners are fighting an uphill battle against themselves because of their tenacious reputation attracting undesirables with dollar signs in their eyes. Chrisjc - where do you live? just out of interest. you're not anal, just passionate about your breed as i am about our hunting dogs - btw, neo's are useless i've never even attempted to hunt warren and would snipe at anyone who did hunt one cos they're just meant to be decorative doormats ;) . Just another quick question - why an APBT given the current climate and the possibility that should something happen or some wanker dobs you in and you may lose your dog/s? not picking at all, i'm just curious as to why people continue to purchase and breed them rather than just sticking with and protecting the dog/s you already own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shocking Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Theres a guy near me who breeds amstaffs that he uses for pig hunting, pedigreed. He posts on ozziedoggers and is pretty well known as most amstaff breeders just breed for showdogs or to place in pet homes..I dont see much difference between an amstaff and a pit bull, people crap on aboput pitbulls being bred to be gladiators so dont make good hunting dogs, well select for what you get and you will eventually get it. its also written about in the AST breed extention as a traditional use. i think i know who u r talking about... was very glad to see someone making such moves with the AST. i was really happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shocking Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) If you don't like them, fine. Ridiculing them on an open forum seems a little unfair to me. A bit like kicking them while they're down Alpha-bet Often high strung, fence climbers, fence biters. My dogs have never been fence biters, climbers and no they are not highly strung. You may have dealt with APBT/PB's that have done this, but do you honestly think they are all like this? What happened to individuality???? Every PB or cross we owned or have encountered through the hunting fraternity have been very hard luggers (to the point they're too hard to get off). Amy h Your experience with them is hunting, what about family pets??? Well, i'm not exactly kicking them while they're down - merely being practical in admitting that they aren't a dog for everyone, and shouldn't be promoted as such. Being the mother of a baby i wouldn't allow any of the dogs of any breed or purpose i've ever known to 'nanny' her. As far as the people i know that own dogs, i've been around exclusivley pet APBT and those used for hunting (which are family pets in the meantime), and have always found them defensive of their owners. Not aggressive, but definitely wary in the prescence of strangers. The reason APBT is bred into hunting dogs is their ability to hold. in relation to individuality - you defend the breed on the basis of your own dogs - what about other dogs? we can only base our experiences on dogs we have known. this may be the case for Alpha bet. For example, a dear friend of mine has been an electricity meter reader for 25 years - i would guarantee he would have had the most experience with dogs of anyone you could meet. His conclusions are the ones you have to watch are Border Collies, Cattledogs, Kelpies, then Malamutes, APBT and crossbred dogs. That said, real APBT and obvious crosses aren't as plentiful as these other breeds in the area he reads. This is a man that loves Bull breed dogs - but he will openly contest he always watches PB's with one eye open because in his words, you just can't trust them unattended. That combined with their strength ... you get the picture. These dogs need to be very very well socialised, well fenced because they are great jumpers, they do need to be protected from themselves. My point in saying that is they ARE a guardian breed, which is very loyal to their own family - and what does a guardian do? BSL is not right, but back to my original arguement - if they're not to be bred, sold, they are to be desexed and not imported, by the legislation, aren't you only shooting yourself in the foot by blatantly flaunting the law, through having dogs advertised for sale, breeding dogs? deleted Edited November 6, 2009 by shocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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