Novice Needing Help With Barking Pup

[Staff'n'Toller]

Have fun with the Kong recipes!! LOL

Yeah it is annoying to have to walk them 2-3 times a day, and you certainly don't want to train him to demand his walks just because he barks.

I think with an energetic breed like that (Tollers are akin to Border Collies) you just need to have a timetable set out so in the morning it is walk then a bone/kong/buster cube, then you're probably out during the day, when you get home maybe 10-15 mins of play and ball or frisbee chasey just in the yard. Then something like tossing his dinner (if it's dry food) out in the backyard so he has to sniff around to find it. Also you could start teaching him to shake a paw, bow, beg- inside at nightime, stuff to get his brain working and interacting with you guys more positively, then off to the crate for bedtime!!

He probably needs to exercise his brain just as much as the physical stuff, just think of him as a toddler- always has to be doing something!!

Have fun, he will grow up really fast.

Mel.

Oh I forgot to mention- get him into swimming if you have a dam/creek/dog pool near you, swimming tires them out like nothing else!!

Edited December 14, 2004 by StaffordsRule

[Guest tollerblaize]

Thank you so much for all of your valuable input. I have purchased more toys for Blaize and we are now in a routine of morning and afternoon walk. The barking is getting a tad better. I feel more positive after reading all of your advice. Thanks again to all. Will keep in touch and let you all know how we're doing.

Starting obedience at end of Jan! Can't wait.

[Sayreovi]

Hi,

Another thing is retrieve, instead of walking through a ball or something until he or you are exhausted he will then more then likely fall asleep.

A word of warning though they will retrieve and retrieve until they drop.

What worked with Nova was the morning walk for about half an hour to a hour and then a hour walk in the afternoon off lead. This is too much for a 13 week old but a quick walk around the block in the morning with a couple of retrieves should tire and not over do the exercise.

Good Luck and let us know how you go with Blaize!!!

Natasha & Nova

[winewood]

Hi, when grace was young I used to do different things around the yard like :

putting all the tennis balls into a small bucket which she had to knock over and use her paw to pull them out.

Put a small hole in a carrot, thread string through and tie to a tree just out of reach.

Apple in the drinking water

Dry biscutes in a lemonade bottle same as a kong but different shape and they chew the end.

Throw dry food on lawn or on paving for later scavaging.

I'd do this while she was having breakfast and not taking notice of what I was doing

I'd give her peanut butter or honey on toast for breakfast it sticks to the roof of their mouth and gets stuck in their beard (Airedales) takes a while to lick clean.

O.K. friends thought I was mad trying to think of something different everyother day and changing toys, don't have the same toys laying in the garden each day.

This won't cure barking but will give her a few things to think about on her own and keep her amused and maybe tire her out, if not a large meaty bone always helps.

[SamAdams]

This is what my trainer taught me..

when my dog barks I say Speak! , then I tell him good speak!

-When he barks and I want him to be quiet, I say quiet twice if he doesn't stop I spray Binaca into his mouth.

--it is not harmful and something people use in their mouth for bad breath anyway. !!

I have done this three times and Patches is already getting that Speak means he can bark and Quiet means no bark.

[Guest naughty_dog]

Hey everyone, I thought I'd add to this post as I'm having the exact same problem. I have a border collie (which probably explains it lol) but I feel as though I've tried everything. He gets lots of walking, bones, has a bucketload of toys, another dog in with him (although she's older so doesn't really want to play) and at the moment I'm on holidays so he's getting *lots* of attention. I think he simply loves to bark. The problem started about 1-2 weeks ago, when a neighbour was revving him up and then abusing him for barking, he is now to the point where he will not shut up for longer than 5 minutes in between bursts. He goes to obedience classes and is responding well to all the excercises,but is simply not bothering to listen when he's not on the leash, and doesn't bark when he is on it. Also part of the problem is when I go outside, he usually stops and runs away from me because he knows he'll be chained up/growled at/sprayed etc. and the MINUTE I'm inside...it starts again.

I've tried:

-spraying him in the face with water

-"stop barking" along with a hand signal

-chaining him up for 10mins every time he barks after I tell him to stop

-walking him and walking him to tire him out

-growling at him

-bringing him inside

My next resort is going to be one of those collars that emit a high frequency sound when he barks, hopefully that will work. He shouldn't be bored, and he's even to the point of barking at night when he's inside, but can hear faint sounds outside such as neighbouring dogs barking. Our backyard is BIG, lots of trees, bushes, areas to run which he utilises, and he still persists! I'm at my wits' end, I really don't know what to do.

Sorry about the essay lol, and thanks for any advice

[Guest tollerblaize]

mmmm - another kindred spirit with the same problem. It sounds like you are in the exact same situation as me!

After all of the wonderful advice I've received on this link, we have been trying giving our Toller (who is much like a border collie) time out in his crate. The crate is in the laundry - still inside the house. We put him in there and say 'quiet'. It's been taking him a few minutes to settle down. After a few quiet minutes we bring him back out and he seems to be getting this message. You bark, you get separated from us. However, this isn't working when he barks in the backyard. And we are concerned about keeping the crate as a GOOD place.

When he barks in the backyard we are trying to ignore him and fingers crossed the neighbours don't complain. Our boy is only 14 weeks old. How old is your border collie 'naughty dog'?

[whatevah]

I have a toller also. He rarely barks. Even when we do flyball he does not bark. I absolutely hate barking dogs. Tollers are very smart dogs, you have to get rid of any bad habit before they become engraved. I have taught him to bark on command and he won 3rd in most talkative dog.

When I got Moses, he would start barking with excitement as I was getting his food ready, so I stopped what I was doing, then when he was quiet I started making his food again. But I have trained moses with a clicker from day 1. I find that clicker training sessions really tire him out.

Here is my web page http://www.dogtrick.741.com

I would take your dog to obedience lessons, get some training books, give clicker a go.

Here is the link for a toller website http://myfreebulletinboard.com/f2/index.php?mforum=toller

Where is your location? Are you in Melbourne? There is a great book shop in Boronia.

Whatever you do with the dog you have to be consistent, don't let him get away with it ever.

Also be wary about teaching to bark, for some dogs it makes it worse for others it improves it. I know a guy who had a sheltie, who taught it to bark and it never shuts up.

After I taught Moses to bark on command, he would start barking when frustrated so I ignored it, and he stopped doing it.

At flyball training I always made sure that when he wasn't working, he had nice bone to chew on in his crate, so he never got into the habit of barking. At my obedience club we did ties up. You train your dog not to bark while it is tied up. You tie your dog to a post, and walk 3 feet away and then come back to the dog, and give him a food reward. You then extend the time gradually and then extend the distance. If you dog starts to bark you have made it too hard.

At my obedience club as at most club, instructors will waffle on, meanwhile the dog is getting anxious because it wants to work. So what I do is tell the dog to stay and then step one pace behind him and listen to the instructor and every now and then reward the dog, and the do the stay again. This way the dog is working and you can listen to the instructor and you are getting a lot of stay practice in.

Edited December 21, 2004 by Toilet Duck

[Guest naughty_dog]

My border collie is just over 6 months old, and never barked when he was younger, he's only just discovered his 'voice'. Although, should add that he hasn't been desexed yet, going to be after Chrissie, so hopefully that might stop him being territorial, if that is why he's doing it?

[Guest em si hsoJ]

I have always used the water spray bottle to stop unneccesary barking

lol I tried that with my dog and he loved it! He'd bark I'd spray him and he'd jump around trying to catch the water in his mouth and then just bark again I just told him no whenever he started barking and now he only barks when he needs to go out.

[aatainc]

Toller blaize and naughty dog,

Can I add a different suggestion?

I have a toller and border collies myself so I sort of know where you're at....

Both of these breeds are very reactive and alert. My toller "screams" at the slightest sight of someone arriving but stops barking quickly - just as soon as the others start!

The main thing with these guys is CALM. The reason he is barking at such varied times and at different stimuli is probably because he/they are overstimulated. In other words, I am saying the opposite of everyone else. He is not bored. (He couldn't be - you are providing everything he needs and more!) He needs to be MORE bored - i.e. - less stimulated!

For the next couple of weeks, make everything CALM. Have a routine too. When you get him up to pee, be CALM. Speak in a very low, soft voice, and don't use any more words than you have to to get him outside and peed. Avoid turning the light on in your midnight pee trip if you can. The dark will keep him calmer. Once he has toileted speak in a soothing voice to praise him. Do not give him a treat for weeing unless treats do not overexcite him. (They usually do)

I have found with my toller in particular, that physical contact makes him go raving mad. So for the first month he was here - we maintained a "hands off" policy. In other words, he got groomed and patted in a calm manner when he was relaxed, but we were totally hands off with our training. We didn't use any patting for rewards because he learnt faster if we kept him calm and any amount of patting would rev him up. We also were especially careful not to use any physical manipulating to train him - as that was worse! Use food to lure him into position, or just simply wait until he does it - don't push him physically to do something - his brain will overload!. Now, after learning more behaviours and growing up a little we can pat our toller as a reward (and it's a very potent reward) but I still don't do it much - and stop as soon as he gets excited.

Anyway, back to the routine. Put him back in his crate (presuming you're not getting up yet at 4:30!) and calmly say something like "goodnight" and go back to bed. Under no circumstances make any response to his barking. When you get him up finally in the morning, once again, CALM. No excited greetings. Put him outside to pee (go with him if necessary) and then let him inside for his breakfast. Try to prepare his brekky before you let him up so that he isn't getting excited while he's watching you prepare brekky. Same for all the meals.

Call him to "come" from wherever he is for his brekky and that's one training session out of the way. Require him to sit before you put his bowl down - and look you in the eye. If he's sitting and looking in your eye then he's not being overexcited.

After brekky, out to toilet. Let's presume that you are at home from now on - rather than going to work.

After toileting, let him hang around inside the house with you. Whatever you do, do not speak to him, pat him, give him treats or do anything exciting yourself. When you have to speak, do so in a low tone. When I'm doing this program i often sing a soft slow song to myself under my breath - like singing a baby to sleep. If he's barking at you, yawning or sighing can help calm them. Eye contact makes it worse.

After at least an hour of you being calm and totally ignoring him (no matter what) you might try an official training session. (Make sure in this hour of calm that there's nothing exciting happening - no visitors etc. If visitors arrive or something happens that excites him start counting the hour again. You need a good solid block of nothingness.)

When you have decided it's time for a training session, call his name and, using treats, teach him some basic behaviours for no more than 5-10 minutes. STOP immediately if he starts getting over excited. End the session with a little ball throwing to help tire him out and give him a release. However, do this ball throwing without great fanfare - don't over praise him excitedly - just nice soothing praise.

Do say three of these sessions each day - always after some good quiet time. The reason for this is that training will become his excitement for the day. Training will therefore become one of his favourite activities - I'm sure you can see the benefits to this. The biggest benefit though is that he gets this as a reward for some calm time.

Lunch time should be a bone in his crate or outside - something to tire him out physically and mentally and also help fill his tummy which will calm him. Try lamb off cuts or chicken frames - something big and challenging. If you have to pop out - after lunch (and toileting) while he's still full is a good time to put him in his crate and go out. Don't leave him for too long but if you can hear from outside - try not to come back while he's barking. Even one second's break is enough to open the door and praise calmly for the quiet.

Maintain more calmness in the afternoon and evening. Feed him around your dinner time so that he'll hopefully be calmer in the evening from a full tummy.

Now, onto other things.

I disagree about the walking. Firstly, because going outside is stimulating and secondly, because he's just far too young for official walks. It's not good for his bones. wait until he's at least 5 months old.

Also, I would strongly recommend you put him on a fresh raw human food diet. I.e. - a BARF diet. (Bones and raw foods.) Dogs fed fresh raw food are more calm than dogs on dog food. DEFINITELY remove any dog foods that contain any food colourings such as meaty bites, my dog, lucky dog, chum etc.

My pups eat:

Brekky - oats, yoghurt, honey, egg and banana (oats, banana and honey all have ingredients that act as a nerve tonic which calms them.) (the oats are rolled oats lightly cooked by the way.)

Lunch - nice big raw meaty juicy bone. (Always fed outside, in the garage or crate - that way they are learning to be alone for a period too.)

Dinner - pet mince from a butcher (not a pet food brand as these are preserved) with a 1/4 cup of juiced raw vegetables and some vegemite (also for the nerve tonic properties of vitamins B.)

This sort of diet will help calm him down compared to dry food because dry food has excess energy - not to mention additives.

I would definitely disagree with the advice to spray or correct him for barking - tollers love water and both breeds love to chase things - so water catching can become a big game. Also, corrections of any sort once again overstimulate them.

I agree with mcboxer - avoid picking him up - UNLESS you find that it calms him down. In which case, you can pick him up as a calming exercise - try lying him belly up on your lap while you sit on the floor with him. Hold him still until he stops struggling and then praise him soothingly. Sometimes this routine can help bring him down from a "high".

I also agree with pesh - take him to the vet if there's any chance it could be a sight or hearing problem. Honestly though, I think it's not too uncommon for a toller to bark a bit until you've solved the issues.

Also agree with staffordsrule - walking is not such a good idea because of the potential bone damage but swimming is great! Get into it if you can.

Mclennan's suggestions are good for in the yard when you have to go out and crating isn't an option. I wouldn't use them until you've maintained the calm routine for a couple of weeks but they are a good way to introduce spending time in the yard without getting upset about the separation. I know this might seem contradictory to what I said before but here goes explaining it:

-He is unhappy about being without you when he's in the yard. So he barks. His barking overstimulates him and actually becomes a bit of an obsessive compulsion. It would be better to gradually introduce him to the yard so that this vicious cycle never starts. Using some of these tricks is a good way to introduce him to the yard without him "missing you" but only do it when he has started out calm. I hope that makes sense.

What samadams suggested could help with most dogs but I wouldnt' with either a toller or a border collie. The reason is that these dogs are extremely smart and both breeds can be anticipators. I.e. - they try to guess what behaviours you want in order to earn what they want - treats, attention, whatever. Many dogs that have learnt that sometimes you want them to "speak' will try speaking over and over to see if that earns a treat. At this stage I wouldn't be rewarding speak at all - not even by telling him to "quiet" (which is rewarding because it's attention.) Otherwise , it would be good advice for labbies or something like that.

Naughty dog - addresing you specifically now:

Do you see what your situation is? You have listed out so many things - you are giving him so much to do! Excitement is the order of the day at your place for puppy. This is probably why he's barking - he's just so happy and overexcited that he can't contain himself. Movement and exciting things are the number one reasons that working dogs bark.

I wouldn't do any off leash training yet - if he doesn't listen then he's only un-learning things you want him to learn. Stick to leash work until it's better. IF you implement the calming routine and add in 3 x 15 min sessions for your 6 month old - do them off leash at home only and after a while training will become so much fun that he will want to listen more at obedience. In order for this to work though, training has to be the most important thing in his day - so most of his day should be CALM and then training should be contrasted to this. You may even need to reduce the amount of exercise he gets and reduce his toy access to just a couple. Avoid squeaky toys as some dogs bark back at the squeak.

Try to keep him inside with you as much as possible. Inside is boring - outside there's things to see and hear and bark at. If he is outside and barking - do not go out to chain him up or spray him. Like you said - he's starting to run away - this is the beginning of a very bad habit!! (Probably half the reason he's ignoring you off leash too.)

I would go outside to him, and completely ignore him. No speaking, no touching and no eye contact. Walk around the yard examining the grass. Your dog will be interested by your fascination for the grass and will start to follow you around. He will likely be quiet during this exercise. AFter a minute or so of quiet calmly praise him and let him inside. If he's barking inside, do the same thing - or crate him.

You said it yourself - he shouldn't be bored. That's because he isn't. Like you said, he has too much to do. He's barking at night at all of the noises - once again - overstimulation. Try to shut windows and keep him in the quietest room at night by the way. The idea, is to make his life more boring so that he has less things to bark at.

I know this probably sounds very contradictory to what everyone else has said. Usually, when we hear of a barking dog, we immediately rush in to tell them that it's bored and to entertain it more.

I usually would too.

However, with these breeds, at these ages - it's different. Also, the reason I can tell that it's not likely to be boredom is because your cases are so different. USually it's "my dog barks all day while he's left alone." On further questioning, these poor dogs never have any toys or attention. In this case, it's the opposite. You are doing everything "right" yet still the barking occurs.

Try the calming for at least 2 weeks. Avoid eye contact, patting, excitable praise, exciting events etc except for during your short training exercises and use these things as rewards them. Ignore all barking. The key is CALM, CALM and more CALM.

This has worked for a number of our overstimulated dogs by the way - not just our toller.

Oh , guess what, hubby just came home and I told him the story of Blaize. He isn't exactly a dog trainer - but before I even mentioned what I thought - he said "he's overstimulated." There you go. Someone agrees with me!

Naughty dog - you thought your's was an essay!!

Sorry for the long post - hope it helps - and please keep me updated if you do try this method.

by the way - just have to add - often when you reduce the amount of exercise and attention the dog is getting the barking will get worse for a couple of days. Expect this - it's kind of an extinction burst. It will get better again.

[Sayreovi]

Gee Attainc, that was a really excellent informative post!!!

Hehe you have a screamer too Novas a bit of a screamer at times too

[Guest tollerblaize]

I must say, I am just so impressed with this forum. Aren't dog-lovers/owners just beautiful people !

Firstly, Toilet Duck, your advice and websites are fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to get involved in this discussion. I have been thinking about getting into clicker training and am doing some research on it now. I would like to know Attainc's advice on this.

And on that note ... Attainc - who are you? Your advice CALMED me! I could really relate to what you're saying. Thank you thank you thank you. I am going to print out your 'essay' and keep it on my fridge. I would also really like to keep in touch with you if that's o.k. Thank you again.

The past couple of days we have been keeping Blaize very quiet. Calm is the key for sure. He is at my feet now - very quiet. I haven't spoken to him or touched him for at least 30 minutes. Still not sure about stopping the walking though. That's 40 minutes in the morning and some off-leash play in afternoon. Is that really too much???

[ninaandted]

Hello,

I really feel for you. Our little girl is also a bit of a problem barker, but we are slowly making progress.

As she is a lab and loves the water the water spray was absolutely no use to us either. We tried the "ignoring" it theory which of course didn't work at all and alienated one of our neighbours who just thought we were being slack! I had to develop a very stern voice that I'm sure would terrify small children and she will stop if I am there and tell her to stop and then as soon as she stops she is rewarded with a pat or a game. People have suggested though that we are just rewarding her by going out to stop her - so we are caught in a bit of a quandry between all the advice and what keeps our neighbours happy. :rolleyes:

Our continuing problem is though, that we are simply not home all the time so the message is not consistent and therein lies a big part of our problem and this may also be the case with you?

Has anyone tried a citronella collar and what do you think of them? A trainer has recommended one to us but I'm loathe to do it if it is a waste of time and money, or is in any way cruel. They suggested it because it would take care of the issue when we weren't there and also meant that we didn't have to go out in the yard to stop her - thereby denying her any attention so that she couldn't connect attention with the barking.

What do others think?

Naomi

[aatainc]

Thanks very much tollerblaize and natasha.

Answering some of your questions tb, (unfortunate initials there):

Clicker training - YES! Absolutely!. It's excellent. Our toller absolutely thrives on it. the other benefit of a clicker when working with an excitable dog is that often the excitable sorts only give you a split second to reward them before they move onto the next thing - they're too fast! a clicker is a much faster way of marking the correct behaviour and the treat comes later. I'm sure you can read better definitions elsewhere so I won't go into it too much. Also a click is a non-emotional way of rewarding so sometimes it gets them less revved up than normal praise or patting. so yes, try to get into it. If you're in brissie we can offer lessons on getting started and we also stock clickers. Otherwise, there's plenty of places that could help you.

Who am I? - I'm the trainer/manager for an Assistance Dog training group in Brisbane. You probably won't have heard of us because we're tiny and our yearly budget is about the size of the average garbage truck driver's weekly wage - but hey, we do our best. Our toller is going to be a great assistance dog.

you're welcome to keep asking questions. If you're in brissie I'd love to meet your puppy actually because I LOVE toller pups!

Glad to hear that calm is helping. as for the walking: the off leash play in the afternoon is probably fine - at least it helps wear him out for bedtime. However for health reasons, 40 minutes walking is an absolute no no. Tollers are one breed that will not stop when they have physically had enough - so they can do some serious damage to joints and muscles from overexercising. I would cut it down to no more than 5 minutes at a time. You could do this in 2 separate lots if you wanted. I personally don't walk my pups at all until they're at least 6-8 months old. I do however teach them to walk on lead around the house and in the yard. They also get out to socialise around shops etc and go to puppy preschool. So they do still learn how to walk nicely just don't go on "walks."

ninaandted - it sounds to me like your problem's cause is very different to tollerblaize's and naughtydogs. It sounds like your dog is bored. My biggest reason for guessing this is that labbies are less likely to be overstimulated - although it is possible. Try some of the suggestions that people have made earlier on this thread - such as toys, kongs etc.

A citronella collar might be ok - I would consider talking to K9Force (a poster on this list) about an electronic one instead though. The citronella can have some side effects - and I believe that the stimulation from the electronic one is nowhere near as "shock" like as we may have been led to believe. Having said that - I've never used one and have no need to so you'll have to ask around about that.

If she is barking while she's outside and your in she probably just wants to be let inside - so let her in more! A lot of dogs calm down a lot more when they're "inside;" dogs. When you're out make sure she's entertained - ie. follow some of mc boxer's suggestions earlier.

I would generally give her more attention. In this case it sounds a little more like she's bored and lonely. Maybe one of your neighbours or their dogs would like to visit her during the day when she's out? You could always ask!

good luck!