wakd Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) Hi folks, Our two little pugs are getting on fine, and as expected snort, sniffle and snore as pugs are supposed to. They are 5 and a half months old and my girlfriend took them into the vets this morning to get desexed. The vet who examined them told my gf that we should consider getting their airways cleared while they are under anaesthetic for the desexing. This was unexpected. I know brachycephalic dogs who have problems can get surgery done but did not know that they do it as a matter of course - "just in case". The extra expense is not an issue, however I don't want to have invasive surgery done without very good reason. On the other hand I don't want to not do it only to find in a year's time that the dogs are having troubles. Can anyone give me some advice on this? Thanks, Ben PS The vet could not do the "extra" surgery today, so they have gone home but are being taken in tomorrow morning so we only have today to decide. EDIT: After another chat with my gf, apparently the vet says they examine the airways while under anaesthetic and make a decision then as to whether or not to go ahead with the procedure, based on how severe the blockage may or may not be - but obviously have to ask the owners first before the surgery. Edited October 18, 2009 by wakd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 EDIT: After another chat with my gf, apparently the vet says they examine the airways while under anaesthetic and make a decision then as to whether or not to go ahead with the procedure, based on how severe the blockage may or may not be - but obviously have to ask the owners first before the surgery. As per your edit, without having them under a GA they can not adequately view the palate to determine if they need to be done. My advice, if it needs to be done, then doing it now will save a lot of money, heartache and misery down the track. Sometimes, the soft palate can be elongated to the point of near total obstruction, sometimes it can just be a tip of the palate that is in the way. Only your Vet will be able to advise if it needs to be done. Here is a pic of a girl I had done a few weeks ago. The soft palate was very elongated as you can see by the amount they are removing. All of that was blocking her airway. Yesterday, we took her for her first good walk since the op. She actually made it almost all of the way without me having to pick her up. When I did pick her up, she wanted to get back dwon again within a few minutes. She has gone from a dog that could only walk metres to one that can now walk a few hundred. In time, her fitness will pick up more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouledogue Français Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 A good vet will never do a palate just in case and the vets I have discussed this with prefer not to do them under 12 months of age unless they are severe. Has the vet picked up problems to mention doing your pups? Have you noticed any problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakd Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys. We have not noticed any probs with excessive panting/foaming nose/fainting etc. that I read are symptoms of a problem. They seem very fit and healthy to me, but we have not gone through a hot summer with them yet. As far as I can tell, since they are going under GA the vet wanted to check while she had the chance and correct if necessary. Apparently the vet said since they do snore and sniffle, there is a good chance that a correction will potentially prevent problems down the track. I think I will take the advice of the vet and let her go ahead if she thinks it necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puglvr Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) I don't think you should be getting this done "just in case". These are only babies and their heads have not finished growing yet. I think the vet is being very irresponsible to be suggesting that. If the vet did not do the surgery then do not go ahead with it for a few more months. Putting a pug under anaesthetic is problematic at the best of time but to go under twice in such a short space of time just to fix something that may not be a problem is ridiculous. My advise is to wait. Edited October 19, 2009 by puglvr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the advice guys. We have not noticed any probs with excessive panting/foaming nose/fainting etc. that I read are symptoms of a problem. They seem very fit and healthy to me, but we have not gone through a hot summer with them yet. As far as I can tell, since they are going under GA the vet wanted to check while she had the chance and correct if necessary. Apparently the vet said since they do snore and sniffle, there is a good chance that a correction will potentially prevent problems down the track. I think I will take the advice of the vet and let her go ahead if she thinks it necessary. Unless the palate is critically long, dogs under 12 months do not show many symptoms. The symptoms gradually build, in my experience, from the age of around 12 months onwards. I am yet to meet a Pug pup that has an obvious elongated palate but I can pick an adult Pug with palate problems a mile away. As you said, your Vet is the best one to advise. Given that the surgery can be risky I don't think they would do it if it wasn't neccessary. Edited October 19, 2009 by PugRescueSydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakd Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Thanks guys, Just to be clear, they did not get desexed today - they are now going in tomorrow, so if anything happens with their airways/palate, it will be while they are under GA for the desexing anyway. I initially thought it was some sort of "just in case", but now understand that the vet can only check for problems while they are under GA, and if a problem is found it is safer to fix it then and there rather than another surgery later. I agree with Pug Rescue that the vet will not do it unless they think it absolutely necessary. Hopefully it won't be necessary... Also, I think the vet was specifically talking about "Stenotic Nares", not long soft palate, but will find out in the morning when we take them in again. Edited October 19, 2009 by wakd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Wakd Gee I am wondering if you were at the same vet as me this morning (there was a couple with two pugs there)? I have exactly the same tale - in for desexing and vet suggested surgery for Stenotic Nares (not the first vet to mention this) and then they will look at soft palate while he is under GA... And as per your case, couldn't do surgery today and told to come back tomorrow. I am happy to have this done if it makes his quality of life better and avoids serious issues down the track - but a bit of a shock I must admit. Hope your two go well tomorrow and we both have good tales to report after this is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Mmm sounds like this vet could be over diagnosing. I know of a vet who diagnoses pugs with entropion, elongated soft pallets and stenotic nares not because they have any symptoms or signs but just because they are pugs. Anyone who has only a little bit of knowledge on pugs would be up for thousands of dollars worth of surgery that is not needed if you listened to this vet. I would not get a soft pallet surgery done untill the pug has stopped growing and/or shows obvious signs that it needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yes puggy puggy I would tend to suspect that also but the widening of nostrils has previously been recommended by another vet (different practice) so I am inclined to believe it may be necessary. Vet has assured me that soft palate will not be touched if all looks fine. Given he has to undergo GA for desexing, I would rather do this at same time if required. Nervous, but I do trust vet and have been very happy with them to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yes puggy puggy I would tend to suspect that also but the widening of nostrils has previously been recommended by another vet (different practice) so I am inclined to believe it may be necessary. Vet has assured me that soft palate will not be touched if all looks fine. Given he has to undergo GA for desexing, I would rather do this at same time if required.Nervous, but I do trust vet and have been very happy with them to date. Does the dog in question have breathing problems? Or do they have a normal brachy breathing? Is the dog overweight at all? If there are marked breathing problems (dog sounds like a steam train from doing not much), and the dog is not overweight, then by all means investigate and do surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Stenotic nares are so common now they appear to be 'accepted' even in the show ring. To be honest, I don't know of any Vets that would willingly risk the issues associated with surgery, and in particular bracchy surgery, on a Pug. They have problems with anaesthetic and the surgery can be risky due to swelling and bleeding and I would think that any Vet would understnad this and only operate if needed? There are cowboys in any profession however I guess. Have a good chat to your Vet and, if you are still not happy, seek a second opinion. I was told that the little girl above "didn't need any surgery and just breathed like a normal Pug" by a Vet Nurse. It was obvious to even the most stupid that she had severe breathing issues. Both myself and the Pug Breeder who initially picked her up for me were horrified when we heard her and to think it was considered 'normal' was remarkable to say the least. Edited October 19, 2009 by PugRescueSydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakd Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi redandwhite - yep think it was the same vet. It was my gf and her brother who dropped them off and they mentioned another pug there with the same diagnosis who had to come back the next day. The dogs got dropped off again this morning, I just hope this vet will use best judgement, and isn't like the vet puggy puggy described! Actually vet has just called to inform me basic blood tests have shown 5 points lower than normal packed cell volume and advised full blood tests for them both before surgery this arvo. Very strange that BOTH dogs showed exactly the same low packed cell volume. Anyway, I just have to trust the vet at this stage, but concerned that a simple desexing has turned into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Very strange that BOTH dogs showed exactly the same low packed cell volume. Anyway, I just have to trust the vet at this stage, but concerned that a simple desexing has turned into this. I agree it is very bizarre. I'd be inclined to question the Vet thoroughly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakd Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 After a bit of googling I have found that low packed cell volume in humans can be related to strong growth spurts by children, where there is not enough iron to keep up with the growth. Both the dogs have been growing very quickly of late which I guess explains it. When the clinic called they had consulted both the anaesthetist and (I think the term was) "medicine advisor". The anaesthetist said it was nothing to worry about and was not concerned, the other person advised full blood test. I agreed to a full blood test to be sure, but am expecting nothing to come of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Great googling work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Yes unfortunately some vets simply "diagnose" based on breed rather than the individual animal. Not saying this is what is happenning here but it can happen. I took my then 12 month old Cavalier into Murdoch University for a check up (before I was a vet) and the vet told me she had a grade 2 heart murmur. Naturally - being so young I booked her into the specialist cardiac clinic for a full work up (ultrasound, ECG, xrays) and thank goodness I did - the specialist said my dog didnt have a heart murmur and the echo showed a perfectly normal mitral valve The first vet just saw Cavalier and assumed she would have a heart murmur..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) hi wakd Yes i spoke with your girlfriend this morning when we were both back there (and my pug made friends with your two)! My dog has had a few visits to this vet and I DO have complete confidence in them - so rest assured, I truly don't believe they would be recommending procedures if they are not absolutely necessary (they have told me with another issue to wait until he is fully grown before any action is taken). Sorry to hear about the blood results - I haven't had any call as yet to advise any problems... Hope all goes well with all three of them! Oops - forgot to mention how gorgeous your two are. Edited October 20, 2009 by redandwhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakd Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Thanks redandwhite, makes me feel better! And thanks to everyone else for advice and comments! Will let you know what they end up doing (let us know how your guy goes redandwhite). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 thanks wakd - i feel better knowing that i am not the only one going through this... shall keep you posted on outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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