Dual Sired Litter

[SpikesPuppy]

Cool, thank you - Curiosity satisfied

[Wilderblu]

Another question I have had over the years related to dual Sires. If you have a breed that has genetic colours ressessive and dominant and you know that your boys can only produce 1 colour or another with the bitch in question. ie if you had 2 Sires who where known (from prevcious litters and pedigrees) to their colour is DNA testing still enforced?

Never would intentionally do it but curiousity keeps asking??? Thanks.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Another question I have had over the years related to dual Sires. If you have a breed that has genetic colours ressessive and dominant and you know that your boys can only produce 1 colour or another with the bitch in question. ie if you had 2 Sires who where known (from prevcious litters and pedigrees) to their colour is DNA testing still enforced?

Never would intentionally do it but curiousity keeps asking??? Thanks.

I would DNA.

In my current situation the Ruby male has known to produce Blenheim pups withanother Ruby.

I have 1 ruby and 3 mismarked. Previous litters with this couple have produced good rubies with minimal to no white.

So can not rely on colour. IMO.

[BJean]

Another question I have had over the years related to dual Sires. If you have a breed that has genetic colours ressessive and dominant and you know that your boys can only produce 1 colour or another with the bitch in question. ie if you had 2 Sires who where known (from prevcious litters and pedigrees) to their colour is DNA testing still enforced?

Never would intentionally do it but curiousity keeps asking??? Thanks.

Yes DNA testing is still enforced, well with Dogs Vic

Edited February 15, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Edited February 15, 2010 by lilli

[Guest Baylord]

Another question I have had over the years related to dual Sires. If you have a breed that has genetic colours ressessive and dominant and you know that your boys can only produce 1 colour or another with the bitch in question. ie if you had 2 Sires who where known (from prevcious litters and pedigrees) to their colour is DNA testing still enforced?

Never would intentionally do it but curiousity keeps asking??? Thanks.

In answer to your question – Yes you would still be required to do the dna testing, and after what happened here in 2000, never ever, take anything for granted as rarities can and do happen as was the case here.

You can read all about it on the links page of my web site www.baylordbloodhounds.com

Under the Unbelievable Litter link.

With my breed, being Bloodhounds, it is known that the red colour is dominant.

It is also said that 2 black and tans CAN NOT produce a red.

Red being dominant you would think that the red sire would produce a red.

It did not happen that way here at all.

Back then I had to go through Vetgen in the USA for a couple of reasons, firstly economics, and at that time the only way an Australian company were able to do parentage dna testing was to take blood, and I was advised for this to happen the pups were going to require a blood transfusion! (I still cant work that one out) Naturally I went with the cheek swab solution even though it happened to be with a USA company.

I might add that after the tests were completed, not only did I cop a lot of flack, but so too did Vetgen as no one believed that this could happen.

There was no way that the swabs were mixed up or contaminated as when we came to do the cheek swabs, the red sire was back with his co owner, and his swab was sent in later.

I learnt never to take anything for granted.

[Guest Baylord]

Another question I have had over the years related to dual Sires. If you have a breed that has genetic colours ressessive and dominant and you know that your boys can only produce 1 colour or another with the bitch in question. ie if you had 2 Sires who where known (from prevcious litters and pedigrees) to their colour is DNA testing still enforced?

Never would intentionally do it but curiousity keeps asking??? Thanks.

In answer to your question – Yes you would still be required to do the dna testing, and after what happened here in 2000, never ever, take anything for granted as rarities can and do happen as was the case here.

You can read all about it on the links page of my web site www.baylordbloodhounds.com

Under the Unbelievable Litter link.

With my breed, being Bloodhounds, it is known that the red colour is dominant.

It is also said that 2 black and tans CAN NOT produce a red.

Red being dominant you would think that the red sire would produce a red.

It did not happen that way here at all.

Back then I had to go through Vetgen in the USA for a couple of reasons, firstly economics, and at that time the only way an Australian company were able to do parentage dna testing was to take blood, and I was advised for this to happen the pups were going to require a blood transfusion! (I still cant work that one out) Naturally I went with the cheek swab solution even though it happened to be with a USA company.

I might add that after the tests were completed, not only did I cop a lot of flack, but so too did Vetgen as no one believed that this could happen.

There was no way that the swabs were mixed up or contaminated as when we came to do the cheek swabs, the red sire was back with his co owner, and his swab was sent in later.

I learnt never to take anything for granted.

Sorry this was back in 2002 and not 2000.

For one reason or another I did not do a follow up article, but the result ended up that the 1 red pup was indeed produced by my English Black Blanket boy Max. The 3 black and tan boys were sired by the Red dog Byron!

Unfortunately we did not get to check on the black blanket girl that had gone to Victoria as she had died from a snake bite not long after going there.

[Yarrowfell]

Anyone else that has registered a Dual Sire litter can I ask what paperwork you provided to the Canine Council (and which state)?

[Guest Baylord]

Anyone else that has registered a Dual Sire litter can I ask what paperwork you provided to the Canine Council (and which state)?

From memory all that was required at the time was 2 litter registration sheets showing the same dam. Plus all the reports from the DNA company, in our case Vetgen. Back in 2002, I was told that there had only been 1 previous multi sired litter that had been registered by WA's Canine Council.

What I would like to know, seeing that procedures here have appeared to have caught up, is what companies are out there within Australia that do DNA parentage testing now?

[Aziah]

Anyone else that has registered a Dual Sire litter can I ask what paperwork you provided to the Canine Council (and which state)?

From memory all that was required at the time was 2 litter registration sheets showing the same dam. Plus all the reports from the DNA company, in our case Vetgen. Back in 2002, I was told that there had only been 1 previous multi sired litter that had been registered by WA's Canine Council.

What I would like to know, seeing that procedures here have appeared to have caught up, is what companies are out there within Australia that do DNA parentage testing now?

Baylord...

Genetic Technologies (VIC) Animal Network

[tashnchief]

Anyone else that has registered a Dual Sire litter can I ask what paperwork you provided to the Canine Council (and which state)?

With the CCCQ I submitted two litter registration forms - one for each sire and pups accordingly. Along with the DNA results certificate. We used Genetic Technologies to do the DNA testing. We had no issues what so ever in having the litter registered and the CCCQ posted the originals of the Dna certs back to me with the pups papers.

[Yarrowfell]

With the CCCQ I submitted two litter registration forms - one for each sire and pups accordingly. Along with the DNA results certificate. We used Genetic Technologies to do the DNA testing. We had no issues what so ever in having the litter registered and the CCCQ posted the originals of the Dna certs back to me with the pups papers.

I submitted two forms and all DNA certificates (from GenTech) as per what I was told on the phone by the office staff. I then received a call telling me I needed to supply Microchip forms for all pups with their proposed registered names on each form. I spend most of Monday on the phone but finally got the paperwork back yesterday.

[tashnchief]

With the CCCQ I submitted two litter registration forms - one for each sire and pups accordingly. Along with the DNA results certificate. We used Genetic Technologies to do the DNA testing. We had no issues what so ever in having the litter registered and the CCCQ posted the originals of the Dna certs back to me with the pups papers.

I submitted two forms and all DNA certificates (from GenTech) as per what I was told on the phone by the office staff. I then received a call telling me I needed to supply Microchip forms for all pups with their proposed registered names on each form. I spend most of Monday on the phone but finally got the paperwork back yesterday.

Obviously, mine were microchipped ( as they have to be before the DNA testing is carried out ) but I honestly can't remember having to submit the microchip paperwork with the rest of the forms. However, it was before microchipping became compulsory here.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I have just rang DogsVic and I have to produce the DNA from the whole litter and DNA from the parents.

I said did you want the proof of parentage certificate and she did not know about that. So they will get it anyway.

You do two litter registration papers.

[Icemist]

I am currently thinking about a dual sired litter, I understand about getting pups from both sires to broaden my lines, and one dogs semen might be more fertile than the other, and of course the timing, but with a dual sired litter, do you generally get the same amount of pups as you would from a single sired litter, less pups, or more?

When is it best to mate them, one dog one day, the second dog the next, or both on the same day?

Can anyone share there experirnces with this?

[Shoelace]

Icemist, we have now done 2 dual sire litters.

The first was using fresh semen from our 2 males. It was a surgical AI as it was believed that the bitch had an ovarian cyst, which it turned out she did. The semen was collected from both boys, mixed together with some extender and put in her. We had 5 puppies, 3 from one sire and 2 from the other.

The second involved the same 2 males but a different female. However, for this one we did natural matings. We progesterone tested to get the timing right. We did a natural with one male, let her rest for around 30 minutes and then did another natural with the other male. We did the same thing the next day, but reversed the order of the males. We had 6 puppies, but lost 2 so I don't know who their sire was. Of the 4 surviving puppies we ended up with 1 pup from one sire and 3 from the other.

To register them with Dogs Qld we completed 2 litter registration forms, one for each sire, and included copies of the parentage reports for each pup. The puppies had to be microchipped to do the DNA swab. The Dogs Qld litter registration form now has a space for the microchip number, and the parentage reports from Genetic Technologies also include the pups name and microchip number.

We will use dual sires again in the future as it gives us a greater opportunity to broaden our lines.

When planning these, we did the DNA testing on the males and each female in advance of the mating so that their DNA profile was already on file.

[dancinbcs]

Back then I had to go through Vetgen in the USA for a couple of reasons, firstly economics, and at that time the only way an Australian company were able to do parentage dna testing was to take blood, and I was advised for this to happen the pups were going to require a blood transfusion! (I still cant work that one out) Naturally I went with the cheek swab solution even though it happened to be with a USA company.

I have no idea what they were talking about with blood transfusions. We took blood samples from over 600 Border Collies including many litters of 8 week old puppies, for genetic research 10-15 years ago with no issues whatsoever. For research they need more dna than you can get from a swab so all the samples had to be tubes of blood. With the litters our vet used to take the blood by holding the leg just to get the vein up, sticking in a needle with no syringe, letting the leg go and then just holding the blood tube underneath the needle to collect the blood. None of them even needed a patch shaved. It is a messy way to do it as the puppies move around but they are not the slightest bit distressed like they would be if you tried to hold their leg and draw up a syringe.