Dumbell Troubles...

[Tay.]

Here we go again with the dumbell.

Jess had an obsession with it for a while and was really willing to work with it.. but now... nothing.

Though she still wouldn't pick it up from the ground she would very happy take it from my hands. I was putting my hands closer to the ground and she still seemed to like it. So training was going great until about 2 weeks ago. I got the dumbell out, said fetch... and she just looked at me, and has been doing that ever since.

We've been working with the dumbell for some time now and nothing is working. Now she dosn't even want to look at it

I'm really losing hope here. I'd really like to go further than novice, but thats not gonna happen! She learns everything else so quickly and is very toy driven... but hates the dumbell!

Please help!

UPDATE!!!

Well last Tues, Jess picked up the dumbell from the ground for the first time

Then... by the weekend she did the whole retrieve on flat exercise!!!

-video coming soon!!- photo though

Edited November 4, 2009 by DogSportObsessed

[Kavik]

How have you been training the retrieve?

[TerraNik]

The hardest thing for me to train was the dumbbell... I feel your pain!!!!!!! Jedi didn't want a bar of it - he would hold it in his mouth for less than half a second before spitting it out. We stayed at that stage for MONTHS! It was soul destroying!!

What method have you been using to teach her up to now?

Have you tried making the dumbbell a little more 'tasty' with some food rubbed on it?

Have you tried a different type of dumbbell (plastic vs wood)? --> this worked for me! changed to wood and the world was a better place

Have you tried waving it around like a toy on the ground to get Jess excited about it? I know this isn't what you're 'supposed to do' but you gotta get the dog's interest somehow initially. Again, this worked for me. I stopped doing it once he had started actively reaching for it himself.

Have you tried using another object altogether to teach the cues? Like a stick or a toy?

Just a few thoughts..

[kathq]

I was having this problem with one of my girls. Wouldnt bring back anything that didnt have feathers attached (shes a gundog). Took me twelve months to teach her to retrieve a dumbell and I tried all the "tricks" people told me about. What worked eventually for us was BBQ chicken. I went through a whole flock of chickens but you could use anything that is of high value for her and only use it when training the dumbell.

I trained her every day in my kitchen in very, very short sessions starting with rewarding for the slightest interest in the dumbell, then for touching it with her nose, then her teeth then in her mouth and so on. Took a while but we got to the point of a two metre retrieve in the kitchen as a constant before I moved her outside went back a couple of steps to reinforce then went from there. Luckily my girl is food obsessed and this worked for me. She still wont retrieve sticks or toys but the dumbell is now a learned exercise and is pretty fail safe much like a recall.

Patience and reinforcement/reward for the tiniest improvement and you'll get there.

Others more experienced here may have a better solution for you but that worked for us.

Some other suggestions

- Plastic instead of wood.

- Bigger (fatter) bar and larger ends to make it higher of the ground and easier to pick up.

- Sew lambswool around the bar part in case of sensitive teeth and remove once learnt it wont hurt.

- Buy one of those toys that are a dumbell shape and have the giggle thing in them once she has it figured with that substitute the real dumbell.

[Erny]

I presume all else is well? IE that her teeth/mouth aren't sore in any way that could be putting her off from taking something hard to her mouth?

[dogdude]

It sounds to me like your dog has a simple lack of motivation. IMO it should not come from the dumbell itself.

I would not give up until I had tried all methods, including forced retreive. I have used the method on all of my non retrieving dogs, and all were reliably retreiving within 2 weeks.

There is a good "how to" on the subject in Diane Baumans book "Beyond Basic Dog Training", although I advise you learn the method from someone experienced first hand.

Alternatively you could raise your dogs motivation and use the Shirley Chong clicker method.

[Tay.]

What method have you been using to teach her up to now?

Have you tried making the dumbbell a little more 'tasty' with some food rubbed on it?

Have you tried a different type of dumbbell (plastic vs wood)? --> this worked for me! changed to wood and the world was a better place

Have you tried waving it around like a toy on the ground to get Jess excited about it? I know this isn't what you're 'supposed to do' but you gotta get the dog's interest somehow initially. Again, this worked for me. I stopped doing it once he had started actively reaching for it himself.

Have you tried using another object altogether to teach the cues? Like a stick or a toy?

Q1. I'd hold it out in front of her say 'fetch', she'd take it, say 'give' she'd drop it. basically this.. sometimes I'd be in front her her, sometimes she'd be in the heel position etc etc. This is the method my club told me to use. And I was going closer and closer to the ground so that she'd eventually pick it up from the groud.

Q2. yep, she just licks it

Q3. I've currently got a plastic one and no I havn't tried wood... might be a good idea though!

Q4. Yeah... and she tricks me! She looks all excited then ignores the dumbell

Q5. Yep, she can basically do the whole exercise with a tug rope. I've even tried tricking her by playing with the rope and then when shes not looking change it to the dumbell... sadly shes smarter then me ;) :p

[Tay.]

I presume all else is well? IE that her teeth/mouth aren't sore in any way that could be putting her off from taking something hard to her mouth?

Yeah, She's fine eating and has no problem with hard treats (pigs ears etc).

[TerraNik]

Q2. yep, she just licks it

Great!! Licking is a step toward putting it in her mouth! Is she clicker trained? I would try shaping... Start shaping the lick and then raise your criteria for a bit of teeth action, then into the mouth, etc.

[Tay.]

Q2. yep, she just licks it

Great!! Licking is a step toward putting it in her mouth! Is she clicker trained? I would try shaping... Start shaping the lick and then raise your criteria for a bit of teeth action, then into the mouth, etc.

Yeah she is clicker trained. I'll try that ! thanks!

[The Spotted Devil]

Q2. yep, she just licks it

Great!! Licking is a step toward putting it in her mouth! Is she clicker trained? I would try shaping... Start shaping the lick and then raise your criteria for a bit of teeth action, then into the mouth, etc.

Yeah she is clicker trained. I'll try that ! thanks!

And be patient! (says me )

It took me a month to shape just picking up an article and a lot longer to build an enthusiastic retrieve. Bought a dumbell last weekend and he thinks it's a hoot already.

[ness]

I am over shaping it so doesn't work!!!!!!!

[The Spotted Devil]

I am over shaping it so doesn't work!!!!!!!

Liar

[ness]

Right - next time your in Adelaide TSD I'll give you Kenzie and you can try to shape her to pick her metal article up - its doing my head in BIGTIME.

Not totally changing the topic - we get to about the same point that DSO gets with the dumbbell. We usually get it being taken from hand but the moment there is no hand on it or it gets to within 5-10mm of the floor FORGET it.

Although at the moment she won't eve grab it from my hands and just lays down barking at me. Grrrr. Anything else you ask her to hold she does without an issue - including metal cans .

Not even my non-retrieving Ness was this much effort to get to hold a metal.

Edited October 18, 2009 by ness

[OSoSwift]

It took me four and a half years and I eventually had a reliable retrieve and a CDX title - so It can be done!

Even with a totally not into retrieving anything (no not even toys!), ever Dobe girl!

The original method I had been taught was the forced retrieve and she completely shut down, zoned out and went to another place, even though I gently opened her mouth placed the dumbell in, gently held it closed, said give, she spat it out and I gave her a treat! Totally ruined the retrieve until I started clicker and shaped it.

It took LOTS and LOTS of patience (I am not always good at that!) some extra extra special treats, a clicker and shaping.

Once she got the idea and I had taught all the various parts and they were all very very reliable, one day I just put it all together. It worked she did a beautiful retrieve - I went completely off, she was over the top as well, had a huge jackpot and my friend stood with tears streaming down her cheeks as she had seen what we had been through. A truely amazing moment!

Edited October 18, 2009 by Rommi n Lewis

[dogdude]

Opening of the mouth by hand is not part of any forced retreive that I have heard of? I can understand your dog shutting down.

[OSoSwift]

Maybe so, but that was what I was taught at the time and it had been used successfully on Dobes by the person that taught me.

Maybe their idea of a forced retrieve was different?

[MrsD]

Jess had an obsession with it for a while and was really willing to work with it.. but now... nothing.

Though she still wouldn't pick it up from the ground she would very happy take it from my hands. I was putting my hands closer to the ground and she still seemed to like it. So training was going great until about 2 weeks ago. I got the dumbell out, said fetch... and she just looked at me, and has been doing that ever since.

The simple answer is that the reward isn't high enough.

I don't know how you've been training it, but I would go back to the beginning & use a clicker & the highest value reward you can get for her.

[Staranais]

It sounds to me like your dog has a simple lack of motivation. IMO it should not come from the dumbell itself.

That's my opinion too, the dumbbell shouldn't be the reward, it's only the neutral task that the dog completes to earn the reward. I also think it's important not to confuse the formal retrieve with the fun/play retrieve. They should be totally different activities.

I really like the shirley chong method for teaching the formal retrieve.

I got a lovely formal retrieve on my last dog (very mouthy staffy) using the shirley chong clicker method to get him retrieving to front, then switching over to a prey drive reward to avoid the conflict (and mouthing) that comes with having to hand the toy over. Worked really well.

My new girl (mally) picked up the basics of the retrieve using the clicker method in one session last week. Not formal presentation, but just picking up the metal article when I threw it away and delivering it to hand. She's pretty bright though (one clicker session a few weeks ago, she sat down and watched me with her head cocked for a few seconds, then grabbed my hand and clicked the clicker... yes, I treated. ).

[Tay.]

Maybe so, but that was what I was taught at the time and it had been used successfully on Dobes by the person that taught me.

Maybe their idea of a forced retrieve was different?

That was also the way I was told to teach my girl. It did work up until now.

My new plan is to reward any interest in the dumbell. Yesterday I had a bowl of chicken, clicker and the dumbell (& Jess of course ) and we have now got some interest but she still is being a bit weird with it. We're back to; 'she'll take it from my hands but wont go near it on the ground' again :D

Thanks all for the help