Tracheal Collapse

[Steve]

I think the tracheal collapse for toy dogs is caused by different things to the pug suffering from brachy head.

The ones that are showing a high incidence are not brachy heads but toy dogs.

I guess one question we could ask is whether the condition in pugs is always caused by brachy head or whether it may be caused at least sometimes because its a toy breed - dunno but worth thinking about.

Do you know if there have been any studies in this regard?

Is the information you have come across showing a high incidence of hypoplastic tracheas in the toy?

No I cant see hypoplastic tracheas in the toy breeds showing as an issue so far.Ive had a quick look around for studies and found some for patellas and tracheal collapse which might suggest they are both possibly linked to chondrointin and or the associated nutrients which would make it assimilate but no studies which link them. Ive never lived with a toy breed but I assume it would be more difficult for them to eat some foods like beef bones and that they may be inside more than other breeds apart from other dietary issues. I wont get too into it yet until the survey is finished and we can have a good look at it all but from the look of it there are going to be several things to look at and talk about and maybe get into some studies to look at them better.

[shortstep]

Do you know if there have been any studies in this regard?

Is the information you have come across showing a high incidence of hypoplastic tracheas in the toy?

Here are a couple of studies, some of these are just the abstracts, I later saw the whole study, so in interesed search it by title.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...820367/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6732009

Steve I would not think it would be diet. If something long those lines, it might be inability to absorb certain nutrients, even more likely the inablity to build the compounds to make normal cartalige.

This might also be a path to follow

....Ultimately, the researchers analyzed DNA from more than 3,000 dogs from 143 breeds to pinpoint a specific gene sequence variant, or haplotype, associated with small size in the canine genetic code. Nearly all of the small dogs studied shared this genetic variant, implicating it as a major influence on stature in dogs....

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/apr2007/nhgri-05.htm

[Steve]

Do you know if there have been any studies in this regard?

Is the information you have come across showing a high incidence of hypoplastic tracheas in the toy?

Here are a couple of studies, some of these are just the abstracts, I later saw the whole study, so in interesed search it by title.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...820367/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6732009

Steve I would not think it would be diet. If something long those lines, it might be inability to absorb certain nutrients, even more likely the inablity to build the compounds to make normal cartalige.

This might also be a path to follow

....Ultimately, the researchers analyzed DNA from more than 3,000 dogs from 143 breeds to pinpoint a specific gene sequence variant, or haplotype, associated with small size in the canine genetic code. Nearly all of the small dogs studied shared this genetic variant, implicating it as a major influence on stature in dogs....

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/apr2007/nhgri-05.htm

Thanks Shortstep- I can only see one of your links on this computer [ long story] but Ill move to the other computer later on to get a look.

Im not saying it would be diet but Im looking at it as objectively as I can based on what I know about chondrointin and whats needed to make it absorb and assimilate. It may turn out yet to be a red herring showing which will change as more come in but I just really wanted to understand what age it usually became a problem and Id also like to get a bit of an idea of heritability as in how often it shows in certain lines etc. When you consider studies which have reduced the incidence of HD by diet it may not be such a hard stretch.

[shortstep]

When you consider studies which have reduced the incidence of HD by diet it may not be such a hard stretch.

I disagree with this. There are studies that show diet and exercise can affect the severity/expression of HD. None of those studies say they have eliminate the inheritence of HD, or that HD is not always inherited. Diet and exercise can make it more severe. But no amount of bad diet and exercise can make the dog get HD if it does not have the genetics to get HD. A freind of mine is very involved in HD research and she is very clear about this.

In fact researchers are saying to breeders, that severe control of diet and exercise to reduce the expression of HD is actually only masking affected dogs. If breeding selection is made on dogs raised this way, you might be breeding affected dogs and make the problem worst.

Yes tell you puppies buyers to control weight, calories and keep the calcium levels low to give the dog the best chance of having the best hips possible. This is excellent advise, but it has nothing to do with breeding dogs that are free of inherited HD. If a dog gets HD and is fat and had too much exercise, all we can conclude is the dog has inherited HD, possibly made more severe by it's rearing, but none the less it has inherited HD. A breeder can not write off this dog as not really affected with HD becasue it is fat or otherwise raised incorrectly.

Edited to add.

Overweight has already been determined to increase the symptoms of tracheal collaspe, also heart disease make it worse.

Edited October 16, 2009 by shortstep

[Steve]

When you consider studies which have reduced the incidence of HD by diet it may not be such a hard stretch.

I disagree with this. There are studies that show diet and exercise can affect the severity/expression of HD. None of those studies say they have eliminate the inheritence of HD, or that HD is not always inherited. Diet and exercise can make it more severe. But no amount of bad diet and exercise can make the dog get HD if it does not have the genetics to get HD. A freind of mine is very involved in HD research and she is very clear about this.

In fact researchers are saying to breeders, that severe control of diet and exercise to reduce the expression of HD is actually only masking affected dogs. If breeding selection is made on dogs raised this way, you might be breeding affected dogs and make the problem worst.

Yes tell you puppies buyers to control weight, calories and keep the calcium levels low to give the dog the best chance of having the best hips possible. This is excellent advise, but it has nothing to do with breeding dogs that are free of inherited HD. If a dog gets HD and is fat and had too much exercise, all we can conclude is the dog has inherited HD, possibly made more severe by it's rearing, but none the less it has inherited HD. A breeder can not write off this dog as not really affected with HD becasue it is fat or otherwise raised incorrectly.

Edited to add.

Overweight has already been determined to increase the symptoms of tracheal collaspe, also heart disease make it worse.

I didnt say anything about the inheritance or the genes or breeding them.Im simply looking at a possible situation which may prevent dogs with these genes having to suffer any more than they have to if they do get these genes.

However,there's a whole lot of science yet to go before we work out all the answers and Im keeping an open mind.

[Jed]

shortstep

I disagree with this. There are studies that show diet and exercise can affect the severity/expression of HD. None of those studies say they have eliminate the inheritence of HD, or that HD is not always inherited. Diet and exercise can make it more severe. But no amount of bad diet and exercise can make the dog get HD if it does not have the genetics to get HD. A freind of mine is very involved in HD research and she is very clear about this

Just moving away from HD and tracheas, there is some information that suggests that diet has much bigger impact on a lot of areas of dog health than any studies have so far proven. Steve often refers to Pottingers cats, which is incredibly interesting, and worthy reading for any serious breeder.

There is an accumulating body of evidence that a raw diet and the addition of enzyme Q10 arrests the progression of murmurs and MVD. There is a lot of unproven information out there, and if you have any knowedge at all, it is worth reading a lot of it, whilst bearing in mind there is no proof.

I've tried a few things on my lot but a trial is not a study, and I don't have enough to do a study, but I keep the information for future reference, and hope that over time, I might have a study.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Jed

[Dame Aussie]

From what I know it is found in smaller breeds and usually in later life, buit possible at any age.

I have 2 crossbreeds that live with my Mum, they're Chi x JRT and the boy started having this problem at about 11 and the girl 13...they're both still alive and very healthy except for this

[Steve]

Given this appears to be late onset and not something the dog is born with and nor is the patella issue - Im interested.

http://www.naturalnews.com/024133_Chi_genes_health.html

In a small study, the researchers tracked 30 men with low-risk prostate cancer who decided against conventional medical treatment such as surgery and radiation or hormone therapy. The men underwent three months of major lifestyle changes, including eating a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products, moderate exercise such as walking for half an hour a day, and an hour of daily stress management methods such as meditation.

After the three months, the men had changes in activity in about 500 genes -- including 48 that were turned on and 453 genes that were turned off. The activity of disease-preventing genes increased while a number of disease-promoting genes, including those involved in prostate cancer and breast cancer, shut down, according to the study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"It's an exciting finding because so often people say, 'Oh, it's all in my genes, what can I do?' Well, it turns out you may be able to do a lot," Ornish, who is also affiliated with the University of California, San Francisco, said in a telephone interview. "'In just three months, I can change hundreds of my genes simply by changing what I eat and how I live?' That's pretty exciting," Ornish said. "The implications of our study are not limited to men with prostate cancer."

The idea that someone who is an alcoholic, overweight or has serious diseases being caused by faulty genes goes against the almost countless stories of people who were told that yet somehow managed to heal themselves with diet, exercise, nutrition, breathing, meditation and other lifestyle changes that are well within their control.

Once DNA was mapped and began to be studied in the 1950's by Crick and Watson and many other scientists, some started to relate the control the genes have upon various physical traits to emotional traits such as behavior, as well as to various mental and emotional disorders. As they started to test people who were alcoholics, had cancer, asthma, diabetes and just about everything else, they saw a common denominator in that these people many times had the gene for each of those diseases turned on or corrupted. Well, as is typical with western medicine, they take the symptom of the disease and mistake it for the cause of the disease itself.

This is done all the time with the germ theory of disease as they're always looking to blame colds and illnesses on some bacteria or virus. What they never tell you is that when the organs are kept strong and healthy and the body has all the nutrients that it needs in the true proper amount, which is not the so called RDA, then it's nearly impossible for a person to get sick via the normal germs in the atmosphere that we're all exposed to every day. Many studies and tests have shown that when people who lived a healthy lifestyle of exercise and a good diet high in fruits and vegetable, and those who were out of shape and lived a more sedentary lifestyle were exposed to the same amount of a cold virus, nearly all the active healthy people were immune or had greatly reduced symptoms and the time they were sick was also significantly reduced.

Stories abound of people curing themselves of the supposedly incurable diseases that we know. I'm reminded of a story of a woman who became about 100lbs overweight and developed asthma, diabetes and heart disease. She used to be rather athletic and fit before some personal tragedies caused her to delve into food for comfort. She got herself genetically tested and it showed that she had defective markers for asthma, diabetes and heart disease. She resolved herself to her condition for a time, but after five years of being overweight and feeling terrible, including taking various medications for her conditions, she got sick of it and decided to start working out and eating much better, back to a fruit and vegetable diet. After about eighteen months, she knocked off nearly all her weight and hadn't felt that good in years. She decided to have her DNA tested again and what did they find? That the "cause" of her problems, her supposedly faulty genetic markers in her DNA, were no where to be found.

[Steve]

I just think that there is room to explore epigenics and nutrigenomics as well as genetics and I think there is a danger in putting focus on testing for problems and blaming genes based on genetics and nothing else.

Its been proven that its possible to change genes and that can be passed on from the mother so one way of looking at it is that a dog may have a high risk of developing [say] HD and we shouldnt try to change that via diet because it covers the predisposition and we are not breeding away from it but if you come at it from the other view that I am able to change the gene and make it no longer exist which can be passed to its off spring then covering it up is rubbing it out and I think thats the danger in just looking at it based on what seems to be the main focus with scoring and scanning.

If you look at these two things tracheal collapse and patella issues and see what they have in common from a nutritional perspective its worth a look.

Same as MVD and SM - are we able to approach them from a dietary look over consecutive litters while they are searching for a gene.

Anyway I love this stuff and dont want to cut of my ability to learn because Im not prepared to explore and poke around a bit now and then. This survey is giving me food for thought and thats all for now but because of my interest in nutrition its sparked my interest.

[centitout]

puggy puggy

I believe that 'Goose honking' or 'reverse sneezing' that most brachy breeds do every now and again is a form of the trachea collapsing.

Do you have any reference to that? My vet doesn't agree with that, and many non-brachy breeds do it.

My kids chi does that too,has ever since he contracted kennel cough from a recently vaccinated dog.It is worse in spring,so vets attributed it to hayfever.No luxating patellas though.

[bridie]

I just think that there is room to explore epigenics and nutrigenomics as well as genetics and I think there is a danger in putting focus on testing for problems and blaming genes based on genetics and nothing else.

Its been proven that its possible to change genes and that can be passed on from the mother so one way of looking at it is that a dog may have a high risk of developing [say] HD and we shouldnt try to change that via diet because it covers the predisposition and we are not breeding away from it but if you come at it from the other view that I am able to change the gene and make it no longer exist which can be passed to its off spring then covering it up is rubbing it out and I think thats the danger in just looking at it based on what seems to be the main focus with scoring and scanning.

If you look at these two things tracheal collapse and patella issues and see what they have in common from a nutritional perspective its worth a look.

Same as MVD and SM - are we able to approach them from a dietary look over consecutive litters while they are searching for a gene.

Anyway I love this stuff and dont want to cut of my ability to learn because Im not prepared to explore and poke around a bit now and then. This survey is giving me food for thought and thats all for now but because of my interest in nutrition its sparked my interest.

Hi Steve,

I have read this whole thread,very interesting re Patellas in relation to Tracheas.My daughters'Chi had her patellas done before 2 year old,now 8 years old& has Trachea problems.I have a Chi who is now 5,vet shortened her enlongated soft palate which I posted about earlier this year,I don't want to hear she has patella problems omg,that is all I would need,as I already have Bindie with HD,only 20 months old.she is being treated with Omego Fish Oil,Zeel,Glucosomine+Chondroitin. Bone-cartlidge... makes sense re the Chondroitin,point you noted in this same thread is there something lacking re being absorbed by some & not other dogs.All are on BARF diet now.

All from same lines although different sire & dams.

Thinking I should put the Trachea problem one on the G/Chondroitin right away.Anything new on this?

Prevention is always better than cure,can't hurt them just my hip pocket which is becoming very slim after falling for this adorable breed.

Off Topic but re BARF,Have a tiny Chi who has 3 puppies, 3 weeks old this Sunday,2nd litter & she frightened the life out of me last Wednesday late of night(always is if dramas),panting,trembling, looking frightened,couldn't walk properly,no temp,rang the Breeder,said she has Eclampsia(I've had everything but this)gave her a double dose of Calcium +,came back to normal after about an hour or so.Had a slight relapse yesteday arvo,so gave 2ml CodLiver oil+ extra Calcium,after stumbling on your other thread re Calcium,interesting to read if not enough VitD Calcium cannot be absorbed.So until these puppies can feed themselves Summar will be having Cod/L oil & 10-15 ml Calcium daily,am I giving enough C/L oil? she only weighs about 1.5 kilo.Learning all our lives. Wondering Steve if they are all getting enough Calcium vit& minerals on the Barf,your thoughts.

[Dame Aussie]

LOL Just realised I'd already contributed

Edited July 10, 2010 by Aussie3

[Snowysal]

Lunar - the GSP in my sig has had like a reverse sneeze thing after she drinks ever since we rescued her. Various opinions (vets and others) have attributed it to her neglected youth out in the open in very bad weather, damage to her neck from being tied up/led and yanked and an underlying respiratory problem lurking. She has been the same - no sicker, no worse no different for several years - otherwise very healthy, just the reverse sneeze thing for a minute after every drink.

None of the others do it.

[bridie]

LOL Just realised I'd already contributed :D

Hell that was short & sweet Memory ain't what it use to be.....that was awhile ago

[puglvr]

I have 12 pugs. One had surgery last Dec to resect her soft palate (even though it was thought to be normal size it was actually quite long) open her nares and remove saccules. She didn't appear to have any airway problems up until about 6 months prior when she started to make occasional "choking/gagging" noises. She is 7 now and doing very well. I think I'll start adding the Chondroitin to her food as well- couldn't hurt. My older dogs are on Glucosomine+Chondroitin and MSN and I also add this to my puppies food from when they are weaned

None of mine have had any patella problems.

[bridie]

I have 12 pugs. One had surgery last Dec to resect her soft palate (even though it was thought to be normal size it was actually quite long) open her nares and remove saccules. She didn't appear to have any airway problems up until about 6 months prior when she started to make occasional "choking/gagging" noises. She is 7 now and doing very well. I think I'll start adding the Chondroitin to her food as well- couldn't hurt. My older dogs are on Glucosomine+Chondroitin and MSN and I also add this to my puppies food from when they are weaned

None of mine have had any patella problems.

Do you also have them on Omego Fish oil ? I think I will also be on all this stuff as I have started getting osteo pain intermittantly in my knee.

I should have married a vet & work for the medication people.

Be good if all this we are using could be in one tablet,then pharmecuticals would not be making any money.......so this will never happen.

The palate operation on Emily never made any difference,she still snores-snorkels & has on occasion been gaspy in her breathing,told taking in air the wrong way this only happens of an evening,I thought it may have had some-thing to do with less nitrogen, pollens etc in the air

[Staranais]

Its been proven that its possible to change genes and that can be passed on from the mother so one way of looking at it is that a dog may have a high risk of developing [say] HD and we shouldnt try to change that via diet because it covers the predisposition and we are not breeding away from it but if you come at it from the other view that I am able to change the gene and make it no longer exist which can be passed to its off spring then covering it up is rubbing it out and I think thats the danger in just looking at it based on what seems to be the main focus with scoring and scanning.

Steve, that study isn't saying that the genes were wiped out though, just that the genes were not as actively transcribed anymore after the change in diet. Those genes are still there, still able to be passed on to the offspring. The study just shows that those genes are just only expressed under certain environmental conditions, not that certain environmental conditions erase those genes.

As for HD/OCD etc, I think for a puppy purchaser, the advice of limiting exercise & watching nutrition carefully is a very sensible one, since you want your pup to grow up as sound as possible. But for a breeder, I'm not so sure.

I'm not saying run or jump puppies until they break, since even the healthiest puppy joints and growth plates have a breaking point. But if you want to breed dogs with the strongest joints you can, then severely curtailing exercise when a pup is young will only mask any predisposition towards developing joint disease. The grown dog will look like it has great joints, it will x-ray well, but how do you know whether it really does have great joints and would have had them regardless of its upbringing, or if they were actually weak joints that have only matured well since you overprotected the pup when it was young? How do you breed for great joints, if you don't test whether a pup has them?

Just something I think about quite a lot at the moment.

[bridie]

Its been proven that its possible to change genes and that can be passed on from the mother so one way of looking at it is that a dog may have a high risk of developing [say] HD and we shouldnt try to change that via diet because it covers the predisposition and we are not breeding away from it but if you come at it from the other view that I am able to change the gene and make it no longer exist which can be passed to its off spring then covering it up is rubbing it out and I think thats the danger in just looking at it based on what seems to be the main focus with scoring and scanning.

Steve, that study isn't saying that the genes were wiped out though, just that the genes were not as actively transcribed anymore after the change in diet. Those genes are still there, still able to be passed on to the offspring. The study just shows that those genes are just only expressed under certain environmental conditions, not that certain environmental conditions erase those genes.

As for HD/OCD etc, I think for a puppy purchaser, the advice of limiting exercise & watching nutrition carefully is a very sensible one, since you want your pup to grow up as sound as possible. But for a breeder, I'm not so sure.

I'm not saying run or jump puppies until they break, since even the healthiest puppy joints and growth plates have a breaking point. But if you want to breed dogs with the strongest joints you can, then severely curtailing exercise when a pup is young will only mask any predisposition towards developing joint disease. The grown dog will look like it has great joints, it will x-ray well, but how do you know whether it really does have great joints and would have had them regardless of its upbringing, or if they were actually weak joints that have only matured well since you overprotected the pup when it was young? How do you breed for great joints, if you don't test whether a pup has them?

Just something I think about quite a lot at the moment.

Where is Steve??? I don't know how to Bump? How do i do it?

[~Anne~]

Just testing a statement made Rebanne. I can't see a warning as such, only that the thread cannot be replied to after 365 days.

[rebelsquest]

Just testing a statement made Rebanne. I can't see a warning as such, only that the thread cannot be replied to after 365 days.

How/why did you reply then?