poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) So you want to buy a puppy? How does a person actually go about buying an ANKC registered purebred pup? It would be great if it were as simple as going to the puppies available section here on DOL and buying the closest available pup but sadly it ain’t. The right dog, takes time and effort and knowledge to find. A pup also takes time, effort and knowledge to raise. I'd like to start this thread to help people determine what breeds to look at and what breeders to source from. Here are some thoughts, to which I hope people add. 1. Which breed for me? We all have ideas about the kind of dogs we like and much of that attraction will be based on looks. However to buy a family pet that will live longer than many relationships last, you need to do your homework about two things; what are you intending to do with your family pet and what sort of dog will best suit your situation. Issues like yard space, where the dog will live, how much exercise and grooming you're prepared to do and what training you intend to give the dog (all dogs need some) should be discussed and established as your first point of reference. BE HONEST with yourself about this. Don't be aspirational. If you're a couch potato and you're thinking about an active working breed because it might encourage you to exercise then its probable that things aren't going to go well. If you can walk for 2 hours every day for two months without a dog though, you might start to think about that. Have a look at a few general breed books, browse the breed pages here or visit a dog show and you may see breeds you'd not considered before. Once you have a short list the homework begins. Hit the internet and research breed history, temperament and health issues. Look at breed club and breeder websites for more info. Buy a breed specific book or two or join a breed forum online to ask questions. Ask them in the Breeds 101 threads here too. Talk to a breed club contact person and research what its like to live with that dog. Understanding what a breed was developed to do can often be a useful guide to what one will be like to live with. Once you've got a breed picked then its on to step two. 2. Where do I find the right pup? Open the Trading Post and you'll see pages of ads for "pure bred" dogs available right now. This is not the place you'll have a high degree of luck finding the right breeder though. You are looking for someone experienced in the breed who takes great care raising puppies and most importantly who carefully screens and health tests their breeding dogs. Often word of mouth is a good way to find a breeder. Find someone who has a nice dog in the breed you're interested in ask where it came from. You can look up breeders in links to club breed websites (they often maintain a register of who has litters available or expected) 3. Finding the Right Breeder Many knowledgeable dog folk will tell you that finding the right breeder is just as important as finding the right breed for you. Talking to breeders can be a bit intimidating but once you understand that they are evaluating homes for puppies its easier to understand why they want to know so much. Once you are ready to start the puppy search you should arm yourself with a check list. Some breeders prefer the phone to email so that's worth asking about before asking too many questions. I'd suggest the following questions as a minimum 1. Are you an ANKC registered breeder? Do not buy from anyone else. These breeders are required for conform to a code of ethics. 2. Do you show your dogs? Not every breeder does but if they don’t its worth finding out why not. In popular breeds here, the listings are full of breeders who don't seem to do much more than mate purebred to purebred. Their dogs have no conformation or performance titles. I'd suggest that you would do well to find a breeder who exhibits or trials their dogs or one that has dogs out there being handled by others. There's more to a good dog than titles but committed breeders tend to do something with their dogs other than just breeding them. 3. What health tests to you have done on your breeding dogs? If you've done your homework on breed health issues, you'll have an expectation of what should be tested. Don't fall for the "not in my lines" response. Responsible breeders health test. Don't take verbal assurances as gospel - ask to see results. 4. Do you temperament test your puppies? Good breeders spend a lot of time evaluating litters. The more they know about their puppies, the better the chance they'll pick one to suit you. 5. What terms do you sell your puppies on? You should be aware of the difference between Main and Limited Register, any desexing terms and conditions relating to return of the pup or dog if you cannot keep it. Any health guarantee given should be read carefully for what's included and what isn't. 6. What comes in your puppy pack? Many breeders provide an information pack with their pups that includes feeding instructions and other advice designed to help you settle a pup into a new home. Some will also provide ongoing support to owners and take back dogs they have bred that require rehoming. These are all evidence of a breeder's commitment to their dogs. 7. When are you expecting to have pups available. You may have to wait for pups. Good breeders don't have pups available 365 days of the year. A pup from the right breeder is worth waiting for. However breeders that don't have pups due often know others who might. Expect a good breeder to ask just as many questions of you as you have of them. They'll want to know about the homes they send their pups to and to be comfortable that those homes are knowledgeable and committed enough to raise pups well. If you have intentions to show or trial a dog, then you should definitely let the breeder know. As a general rule, a breeder whose dogs have a proven record in what you want to do is the way to go. Statements you 'd probably should think carefully about before you say them: 1. 'I want to pick my own pup '. Good breeders spend 8 weeks evaluating their pups. Many will prefer to select pups for families rather than let people pick for themselves. 2. 'I only want a brown girl ' Good breeders understand that we have colour preferences but know that temperament is more important in matching pups with new homes. Similarly good breeders are happy to take a preference but will ask about why a particular gender is required. 3. 'I want to breed '. This will ring alarm bells for a good breeder. They know how much time and effort is required to breed responsibly. If you are asked about being willing to show and co-own dogs or breeders don't want to sell you a breeding dog, don't be offended. I hope people find this useful. Edited October 29, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The problem is - how do we let people that aren't mental dog people know all this?? Most people have no idea about puppy farms or why pet shops are bad or health issues. It is really rather depressing. Then when you steer them towards a breeder it can get quite tricky if the breeder is difficult. Much easier to just go and buy a pup from a pet shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) The problem is - how do we let people that aren't mental dog people know all this?? Most people have no idea about puppy farms or why pet shops are bad or health issues. It is really rather depressing. Then when you steer them towards a breeder it can get quite tricky if the breeder is difficult. Much easier to just go and buy a pup from a pet shop. No reason why you can't find a few breeders for them if you are more knowledgeable. There is actually a book called "Your Purebred Puppy" and its damn good. Although American based it has great breed profiles and sections on finding and evaluating breeders. Link to author's website here. The hardest things to convince aspirant puppy buyers are: * that the breed they have their heart set on is not really suitable for them * to wait for the right pup. Fail there and they head straight to the pet shop or the Trading Post. Edited October 13, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tintin Jac Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Good info - thanks. A friend of mine has been researching for quite a while now and would like to get a toy poodle puppy. The first breeder she contacted has pups at different prices for male or female. She wants a dog purely as a pet, not showing or breeding. She isn't even really fussed on the sex of the dog, happy to be guided by breeder. Is it normal practice to have different pricing for different sexes? It really can be very difficult knowing where to turn as a first time purebreed puppy buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tintin Jac Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Oops - double post. Edited October 13, 2009 by mrmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Good info - thanks.A friend of mine has been researching for quite a while now and would like to get a toy poodle puppy. The first breeder she contacted has pups at different prices for male or female. She wants a dog purely as a pet, not showing or breeding. She isn't even really fussed on the sex of the dog, happy to be guided by breeder. Is it normal practice to have different pricing for different sexes? It really can be very difficult knowing where to turn as a first time purebreed puppy buyer. A good question for the Toy Poodle thread in Breeds 101. Most breeders I know don't do this but its a fact that boy poodles are sometimes harder to sell than girls. Be sure that the breeder tests for PRA.. if not, tell her to run a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tintin Jac Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 A good question for the Toy Poodle thread in Breeds 101. Most breeders I know don't do this but its a fact that boy poodles are sometimes harder to sell than girls. Be sure that the breeder tests for PRA.. if not, tell her to run a mile. Thank you. Will do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretel Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 What a good topic and well written post PF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clover Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great post PF . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great post. If I ever get a puppy again I'll also ask: * What kind of return policy do they have? If they don't have a life time return policy, I wouldn't deal with them. * What do you do to help breed rescue? I understand that not every breeder has the resources to actually take on rescues, but if their answer is "not my problem" then personally I wouldn't deal with them either. * How many litters do you breed a year? Where do your dogs live? How many breeding bitches do you have? I'd like to flush out the puppy farmers. Of course, a relatively high number doesn't mean that they are necessarily a puppy farmer, but when combined with the above questions I think they would stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fit for a King Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 megan - are you saying that say an owner has had a dog for say 15 years and it is now riddled with all sorts of health issues and the owner doesn't want to know or pay for them that the breeder must take the dog back or be labelled unworthy? Of course there are a million other scenarios but this one has me interested..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 megan - are you saying that say an owner has had a dog for say 15 years and it is now riddled with all sorts of health issues and the owner doesn't want to know or pay for them that the breeder must take the dog back or be labelled unworthy? Of course there are a million other scenarios but this one has me interested..... I don't think I labelled anyone "unworthy"? I just listed my additional criteria as to what I consider ethical - after all, there are numerous posts on here that show that simply being registered does not mean that someone is ethical. There are many different breeders out there for the breeds that I love (MS, poodles) so I'd need some extra criteria to help me make a choice as to which one I wanted to support. In the case above, if I was the breeder I would encourage them to get the dog PTS, and if they wouldn't (ie they wanted to, for some reason completely unbeknownst to me, keep a seriously unwell, elderly dog alive with no vet treatment) then I'd take the dog back and get it PTS myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 This needs to be put somewhere where the public can see this like the newspaper maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great thread poodlefan. Are you able to please explain a bit about breeders who use puppy mill practises but export the bulk of those puppies? This came up in another thread and it was understood the registered breeder shows their own dogs and has won titles, so the purchaser thought it was an ethical breeder, only to then be accused of supporting puppy farming because the breeder exports puppies in bulk. I had never before heard of this happening and certainly wouldn't have known to look for this as part of my research into buying a purebred puppy, or even how to look for it. There are sadly ANKC registered breeders who export litter after litter of puppies each year. For some it's just one breed, others have half a dozen breeds and are exporting 3 plus litters each month overseas via a third party. How do you look for it ? Ask around, there are plenty of breeders who find the practice disgusting and will certainly tell you ( from information printed in the Canine Journal ) who is doing it. If you are purchasing a puppy, ask can you visit the breeders kennels or can you send a friend to look at how the puppies are raised and the conditions in which the adults live. Many breeders will welcome you into their home and kennels ( it might not be when pups are not vaccinated or bitches are about to whelp ) as they have nothing to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Great thread poodlefan. Are you able to please explain a bit about breeders who use puppy mill practises but export the bulk of those puppies? This came up in another thread and it was understood the registered breeder shows their own dogs and has won titles, so the purchaser thought it was an ethical breeder, only to then be accused of supporting puppy farming because the breeder exports puppies in bulk. I had never before heard of this happening and certainly wouldn't have known to look for this as part of my research into buying a purebred puppy, or even how to look for it. Justice people in a breed who've been around for a while know who's who in a particular breed zoo. I can think of at least one prolific poodle breeder who advertises here on DOL and who exports a huge number of pups O/S to dog dealers. A lot of people know which dogs have dodgy temperaments or health issues too. With all the breed specific threads here and so many very experienced breeders, the first thing I'd do if considering a new breed would be to ask for PM'd breeder recommendations and cautions. There are people in the breeds I know that I warn people away from and steer people towards.. and I'm not even a breeder. But any breeder who advertises "puppys usually available" and or who advertises "rare colours" or who seem to have a hell of a lot of litters is probably one to exercise some caution about. Any breeder who didn't mention health testing in a breed with issues would probably get a similarly cautious approach from me. When in doubt I'd advise asking questions.. particularly of experienced people here. Edited October 13, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giannoula Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great thread poodlefan. Are you able to please explain a bit about breeders who use puppy mill practises but export the bulk of those puppies? This came up in another thread and it was understood the registered breeder shows their own dogs and has won titles, so the purchaser thought it was an ethical breeder, only to then be accused of supporting puppy farming because the breeder exports puppies in bulk. I had never before heard of this happening and certainly wouldn't have known to look for this as part of my research into buying a purebred puppy, or even how to look for it. Giannoula 13 October 2009 2 years ago I bought a pure bred Cavalier King Charles Spaniel from a breeder. When she was 6 months old, she was diagnosed with bilateral patella luxation. It cost me $6000 to have her legs repaired. I contacted the breeder by email to advise her about my puppies genetic condition and perhaps she should stop breeding from one or both the parents. I never received a reply. My vet advised me that the breeder's silence may indicate that she knew that she should not be breeding from the parents but perhaps did not care. My question is - how do I warn the public if they want to buy a puppy bred from the same parents as my puppy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great thread poodlefan. Are you able to please explain a bit about breeders who use puppy mill practises but export the bulk of those puppies? This came up in another thread and it was understood the registered breeder shows their own dogs and has won titles, so the purchaser thought it was an ethical breeder, only to then be accused of supporting puppy farming because the breeder exports puppies in bulk. I had never before heard of this happening and certainly wouldn't have known to look for this as part of my research into buying a purebred puppy, or even how to look for it. Giannoula 13 October 2009 2 years ago I bought a pure bred Cavalier King Charles Spaniel from a breeder. When she was 6 months old, she was diagnosed with bilateral patella luxation. It cost me $6000 to have her legs repaired. I contacted the breeder by email to advise her about my puppies genetic condition and perhaps she should stop breeding from one or both the parents. I never received a reply. My vet advised me that the breeder's silence may indicate that she knew that she should not be breeding from the parents but perhaps did not care. My question is - how do I warn the public if they want to buy a puppy bred from the same parents as my puppy? Unfortunately, it's difficult to do so without risking a defamation suit. Gee $6,000 sounds like a huge bill for two patella surgeries and 6 months old very very early to repair them. Knees often tighten as a dog matures so I'd recommend operating after the dog has finished growing unless they are severe. Sorry to hear about this. Was the breeder an ANKC registered one? I'd like to think not but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wantasounddog Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great post. If I ever get a puppy again I'll also ask:* What kind of return policy do they have? If they don't have a life time return policy, I wouldn't deal with them. * What do you do to help breed rescue? I understand that not every breeder has the resources to actually take on rescues, but if their answer is "not my problem" then personally I wouldn't deal with them either. * How many litters do you breed a year? Where do your dogs live? How many breeding bitches do you have? I'd like to flush out the puppy farmers. Of course, a relatively high number doesn't mean that they are necessarily a puppy farmer, but when combined with the above questions I think they would stand out. I agree with megan. At least a 12 mth return policy. (everything else you buy has a 12 mth warranty) Some genetic disorders occur after the 8 week handover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 I agree with megan. At least a 12 mth return policy. (everything else you buy has a 12 mth warranty) Some genetic disorders occur after the 8 week handover. And some don't crop up for years.. I think there has to be a limit on "returns" and some recognition by owners (not necessarily you WASD) that their husbandry can contribute to their dog's health issues. A genetic disorder like PRA is a different kettle of fish to something like HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 And some don't crop up for years.. I think there has to be a limit on "returns" and some recognition by owners (not necessarily you WASD) that their husbandry can contribute to their dog's health issues. A genetic disorder like PRA is a different kettle of fish to something like HD. I wasn't so much thinking about the genetic side of things - after all genetics is a lottery no matter how good you are - more along the lines of "no ethical breeder would want their dog dumped or in a pound". They would have something in the contract that stated if the owner no longer wanted the dog they could return it. After say 12 months (or whatever) there would be no refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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