BigDaz Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great post. If I ever get a puppy again I'll also ask:* What kind of return policy do they have? If they don't have a life time return policy, I wouldn't deal with them. * What do you do to help breed rescue? I understand that not every breeder has the resources to actually take on rescues, but if their answer is "not my problem" then personally I wouldn't deal with them either. * How many litters do you breed a year? Where do your dogs live? How many breeding bitches do you have? I'd like to flush out the puppy farmers. Of course, a relatively high number doesn't mean that they are necessarily a puppy farmer, but when combined with the above questions I think they would stand out. I agree with megan. At least a 12 mth return policy. (everything else you buy has a 12 mth warranty) Some genetic disorders occur after the 8 week handover. The problem there is that I was too attached to my girls after 2 weeks to be able to return either one of them. I dont actually understand how anyone could return an animal they have had for any length of time, if you can I would question your reasoning for having an animal in the first place. One cost me probably $4000 in Vet bills the first year, but the way I look at it is that I am glad I got her as someone else may not have had the patience or money to look after her the way I can. Her problems were not necessarily genetic, but I would think the same even if they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great thread poodlefan. Are you able to please explain a bit about breeders who use puppy mill practises but export the bulk of those puppies? This came up in another thread and it was understood the registered breeder shows their own dogs and has won titles, so the purchaser thought it was an ethical breeder, only to then be accused of supporting puppy farming because the breeder exports puppies in bulk. I had never before heard of this happening and certainly wouldn't have known to look for this as part of my research into buying a purebred puppy, or even how to look for it. People seem to think that it's only 'registered in name only' breeders who do this but it isn't. A cursory check of the CC gazettes clearly shows this isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I agree with megan. At least a 12 mth return policy. (everything else you buy has a 12 mth warranty) Some genetic disorders occur after the 8 week handover. And if the mean for the onset of a heritable disease is 4-6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great post. If I ever get a puppy again I'll also ask:* What kind of return policy do they have? If they don't have a life time return policy, I wouldn't deal with them. * What do you do to help breed rescue? I understand that not every breeder has the resources to actually take on rescues, but if their answer is "not my problem" then personally I wouldn't deal with them either. * How many litters do you breed a year? Where do your dogs live? How many breeding bitches do you have? I'd like to flush out the puppy farmers. Of course, a relatively high number doesn't mean that they are necessarily a puppy farmer, but when combined with the above questions I think they would stand out. Megan, You might be surprised to learn that a lot of good breeders don't have a formal "return policy" as such. However, those same breeders do like you to contact them should anything go wrong, so you can talk about it, get second opinions, and look at different approaches to the problem. Many of those same breeders have in the past offered to take the pup back and give a replacement pup from the next litter. The interesting thing is that often the puppy owner does not want to give the puppy back. I can understand that too. In many ways this is much the same when parents find there is a health problem with their baby. They cant give it back. Nature is a bummer sometimes and gives out health problems where they are not wanted. So, we have to find ways to best deal with the problem when it happens. With good planning and good luck, hopefully the problems wont occur in the first place, but the "return policy"? It really doesn't work that well when you are dealing with nature and the emotions of humans. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 So how on earth do we get this information out to the general public? If even DOLers have trouble working out who they should purchase from (other than getting advice from more experienced members/breeders) I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be for other people, even if they do know not to buy from pet stores and the like. Seeing that horrid woman on RSPCA Animal Rescue tonight and the condition her dogs were in was appalling, yet people have been easily duped into buying from her. I think tonight and the correlation between that segment and the well-intentioned, kind-hearted person who unknowingly purchased from her, has really driven it home to me just how bad and how wide-spread unethical or BYBs are. I knew it was a real problem before now but didn't really KNOW, if that makes sense? You can only point out to the public what good breeder practices are and give them checklists to follow. And implore them not to buy the 'right now' pup without looking at a few breeders and asking a lot of questions. The breeder you refer to rang some wrong bells that a novice dog buyer didn't pick up on. Maybe there's a job out there for a professional "puppy facilitator" to vet breeders and advise on breeds.. watch me apply!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yes it does make sense JS. It is often not until people are faced with the appalling facts that the message really does hit home. Some DOLers think I am nuts when I say that ALL breeders should have a licence to breed, but I have believed for quite a while now that is what it has come to. If we want to breed dogs of any kind, then we all have to show that we are responsible, be licensed and be subjected to inspections I guess. This is not easy for Souff to swallow because I treasure independence, but if that is what it takes to get people to do the right thing when breeding, then so be it. Too many people have let the animals down badly, and ripped off puppy buyers with their lies, and these people often stay hidden for a long time .... and they do an awful lot of damage to the dog world while they stay below the radar. The dogs suffer, and some of the dogs that have been in those terrible places carry the scars for life. Nobody has the right to do that to an animal. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I would like to see everyone who wants to buy a purebred pup join their state CC. They can then read the export lists for themselves and know who not to contact. Those "bulk" breeders generally do not have good quality. If they don't want to join, borrow a journal off someone who is a member. If someone approaches me and asks about someone I think is shonky, I can only recommend someone else, not criticise the person they asked about. BigDaz The problem there is that I was too attached to my girls after 2 weeks to be able to return either one of them. I dont actually understand how anyone could return an animal they have had for any length of time, if you can I would question your reasoning for having an animal in the first place.One cost me probably $4000 in Vet bills the first year, but the way I look at it is that I am glad I got her as someone else may not have had the patience or money to look after her the way I can. Her problems were not necessarily genetic, but I would think the same even if they were. I have a return/refund policy. If the dog develops a hereditary or genetic problem, I am happy to refund/replace and/or take the pup back. If your dog was diagnosed with a hereditary problem, and I was quite sure it wasn't your fault, and you contacted me as soon as you discovered the problem, we could talk. If the pup needed expensive treatment, you could send it back if you liked. If not, I would still refund the purchase price or give you another dog. If you didn't want the new dog just then, you could have it later. And you could keep your current dog if you wished. My rationale is that if I had known the pup had a problem before I sold it, I wouldn't have sold it. I would have kept it, given it away, or put it down, depending on what the problem was, in consultation with my vet. So I would never have sold it to you. So it seems fair to me that you should have a refund for a dog I would never have sold. Unfortunately, people do break their dogs, and expect the breeder to cough up. Also, SOME vets tend to see big dogs, and diagnose HD and little dogs, and diagnose LP, whether the dog has it or not, so I want you to talk to me BEFORE you do anything, and I might want my vet or another vet to see it first. Last year, I had 2 Cav owners of young cavs tell me their vet had recommended horrendously expensive LP operarations on their Cavs. I am quite sure that none of my pups have LP. The first was was about 10 months when a lot of cavs go bum high and "walk funny" - there was nothing wrong with him, and when he was 12 months old, he was back to normal. Vets see them "walking funny" and diagnose LP without an xray, because they either don't know, or are short a payment on a beamer. The second one had a slight pelvis problem which was cured by a $40 chiropractic visit. So, I want to be your first port of call, I want you to do what I ask, not because I am avoiding the problem, but because I can maybe recommend treatment. I know my lines better than you, and better than your vet. And your vet just might be a rip of merchant. I love vets, but some of them are wrong sometimes, and sometimes they recommend unnecessary things to people who want to do the right thing by the dog, but are easily misled, and don't have a lot of knowledge. And sometimes, if the dog has something which is not hereditary or genetic, I'll give you another pup anyhow, just coz. Providing you tell me about it when it happens. I had a dog which developed mega osoephagus (sp?) which can be hereditary or not. Developed it at 16 months, his vet said it wasn't hereditary. Neither was the aortic aneursym, which is a foetal development problem, not hereditary at all. Wasn't my fault. But it wasn't the devastated owners' faults either. And, if I had a crystal ball which told me that would happen to those 2 dogs, I would never have sold them, so I figured I could stand them for another pup. And I did. Don't phone me after you've put the dog down, and try to hit me up for a few thousand. I'll see you in court!! And you'll have to sign an agreement pre purchase agreeing that you may not rehome or euth (unless at a vet's recommendation because of fatal injuries or illness) without telling me, and giving me the option of taking it back. And if it is a fatal illness or injury, I hope you will tell me when it happens, so I can support and advise you. And don't buy the pup, buy the dog. The pounds have a few cocker spaniels, because people think they are cute little "teddy bears", oh so cute and cuddly. They aren't. They are a working dog. A good city dog, and a great companion and pet, but not a toy. A pup is only a pup for a short time, so buy the dog. You'll have the pup for months, the dog for years. It's the dog you will have to live with for 10 -12 years. If you aren't sure which breed, phone up breeders. Go to the dog park. Find 3 of the breeds you fancy. Ask the people who own them what they think of them. How are they to train? How are they with the kids? How are they for the other things you want? And then come and see me, and tell me why you want the breed, convince me!! Oh and don't ask me if I've heart tested the pup. Find out what tests are relevant for the breed, find out that the PARENTS need to be heart clear, the pup can't be tested. Don't ask me about the 60 things my breed might have, that you read on a USA website, coz then I'll know you haven't really researched the breed. Ask me about the three or four real problems in the breed. And if you don't understand what "clear by parentage" means, ask me. Breeders who do 50 tests are not always the best ones either. Some think the more tests they do, the more the "pet owning public" will be impressed, and sometimes, they are not really aware of the relevance of the tests. Souff Some DOLers think I am nuts when I say that ALL breeders should have a licence to breed, but I have believed for quite a while now that is what it has come to. If we want to breed dogs of any kind, then we all have to show that we are responsible, be licensed and be subjected to inspections I guess. This is not easy for Souff to swallow because I treasure independence, but if that is what it takes to get people to do the right thing when breeding, then so be it. Jed mostly agrees with Souff, but not on this one. Licensing will bring further costs, further intrusive inspections, further hassels. Puppy farms will happily cough up $500 or $1000, it wont matter. They will have their 20 best dogs on view for licensing, but not the other 200. "Good" breeders wont want the hassle. I already pay about $700 pa for the pleasure of having the dogs, in council and CCCQ fees. That's a lot for me. If I obtain a breeding permit from my council, I am looking at another $1000. I don't make enough out of the dogs to even consider paying that, so I'll stop breeding if I am forced to pay another "tax" for an inspection. In Q, DPI licensed kennels are registered and inspected. I don't believe this is the way to go for "proper" breeders. Yep, I'd like to see something brought in, but I can't think of anything which will work, which will disadvantage puppy farms and advantage good breeders - EXCEPT - microchipping ALL pups with the breeders contact details as a secondary contact, and if the dog fetches up in the pound, asking the breeder to take it back if the owner wont, or can't be contacted. No release fee to the breeder (it's not his fault the dog is there), but he must take it back within 2 days, or pay to have it homed. Once some of the big puppy farms had to take back 100 or so, they would think more carefully about how they homed t heir pups. I've been suggesting this for about 6 years now, and I notice that more people agree with me now than did in the beginning, so I have hopes that one day it will be implemented. Edited October 13, 2009 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great thread. I have a question for anyone in the know. How are puppyfarmers/breeders/whoever able to have so many dogs in the first place? Is there any limit on the amount of dogs a breeder can have? I don't understand how these things of loads of dogs happens. How do the relevent clubs/authorities not know there are so many dogs? if they do know, and it is not legit, how can they get away with it? Who polices this stuff? The council? Because the council certainly will not allow me to have how many dogs I'd like to have. Also, is it necessary to have so many dogs? Why? All the breeders of both dogs and cats, over 40 years, who I've dealt with been friends with, have not had many animals, most about 10 or 11, have been extremely successful and improved their breeds. How does someone end up with loads of dogs, and what is the legislation on this? Can someone really care for so many dogs properly and meet all their needs? I'm not talking about laws that say a dog has to have an hour out of it's pen either I'm not breeder bashing. I'd really like to know re health problems. If a breeder has tested and done all they can, I don't think it's necessary to blame them for anything. I'm sure reputable breeders are just as devastated as owners when a dog of theirs exhibits a health issue. For me, If I have bought a pet, it is my responsibility, my decision, my consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Jed, what a brilliant post! Your posts are always well worth taking note of, but that one even moreso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Justice people in a breed who've been around for a while know who's who in a particular breed zoo. I can think of at least one prolific poodle breeder who advertises here on DOL and who exports a huge number of pups O/S to dog dealers. A lot of people know which dogs have dodgy temperaments or health issues too. With all the breed specific threads here and so many very experienced breeders, the first thing I'd do if considering a new breed would be to ask for PM'd breeder recommendations and cautions. There are people in the breeds I know that I warn people away from and steer people towards.. and I'm not even a breeder. The difficulty is that while information does make its way around a breed, some of it is malicious. I have heard the same gruesome story from different people about two breeders in my breed. Depending on how cynical you are, you could believe it of both, but it's not likely to be both. Perhaps it's not even one of them. Sometimes people can be unpleasant, but sometimes what you're getting is other unpleasant people trading on that to further their own ends. I would never repeat that story for that reason, nor would I factor it in to recommendations. The closest I will come to making a comment to a newbie is to say "if you wish to do X with your dog, make sure you discuss this with the breeder". It's essentially a pointer for the person to look closely but I don't think I've ever outright cautioned someone who was a newbie. I would rather recommend a breeder I believe in. One thing I do say is to trust more the breeder who can explain what health issues they have come across and what they have done about it, than the breeder who claims never to have had any problems. The former is not always an angel, but the latter is pretty much always a bullshit artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Rather than say don't go to XYZ breeder whom you know are "registered" puppy farmers. Just don't include them on your list of recommendations if you don't have puppies available. It is something I do. I won't tell a person NOT to go XYZ. That is slander and it also can make you look malicious. It also lowers you down to the other breeder levels who do do this. Enough breeders bag each other's dogs in private to other friends/breeders. Joe Public does not need to hear it, nor would they care either I think. If they bring up that breeder in conversation saying they were looking at puppies, I will just not add any comment. I tend to more say "Make sure temperaments of the parents/pups are good, the health testing done or make sure you are VERY comfortable with the terms of their contract (and give examples of a simple contract like desex before certain age to a harsh one where they my pay full price for a dog/bitch and the breeder wants X number of return stud rights free)" or something else along those lines. I may even say, try ABC breeder to steer the conversation away from the one the puppy buyer mentioned. I also advise puppy people to go and see if they can look at breeders adult dogs and puppies if there are any (even if they are all sold). I tell them to ask the breeder they want to look at what their puppies are like and to see if they like that particular "Style". Within all breeds, there are certain styles depending on the foundation bloodline. I also advise them to leave their wallets at home and take a friend so they are not tempted to put a deposit on the cute fluffy puppy in front of them. This gives them time to go home and think about it and evaluate what they have just seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 SSM: The closest I will come to making a comment to a newbie is to say "if you wish to do X with your dog, make sure you discuss this with the breeder". The difficulty I see with that is that some breeders will rate their pups as good prospects for anything! Not every gundog that looks at a bird or retrieves balls will make a working hunter. Not every poodle will be an agility natural. Not every purebred dog will make a show dog. But gee some breeders will tell you their dogs have the goods for it all .. if only they had the time. :p That's why I mentioned about finding breeders whose dogs actually have runs on the board in what ever activity you are interested in. I agree that steering towards good breeders is a much more productive approach than bad mouthing others but sometimes its all you can do to keep your draw from dropping when puppy buyers tell you what breeders have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But gee some breeders will tell you their dogs have the goods for it all .. if only they had the time. That's why I mentioned about finding breeders whose dogs actually have runs on the board in what ever activity you are interested in. I agree that steering towards good breeders is a much more productive approach than bad mouthing others but sometimes its all you can do to keep your draw from dropping when puppy buyers tell you what breeders have said. Yep, true enough on all counts. Some of the things I see claimed on breed lists are pretty jaw dropping too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 This is great information, I will pass it on to my brother who wants a stafford but who does not know much about what to look for in a pure breed dog. He almost brought a "stafford" from the pet shop the other day, which was $700! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 This is great information, I will pass it on to my brother who wants a stafford but who does not know much about what to look for in a pure breed dog. He almost brought a "stafford" from the pet shop the other day, which was $700! Make sure he also checks out the Stafford thread in the "Breeds 101" Forum... and tell him not to pay $$$ for a 'rare' coloured one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miz J Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) This is a good discussion. I am not nor will be a dog breeder that needs to be done by people who know what they are doing. My experience recently with boxer breeders here in SA and in NSW has been good. We have 2 boxers and our recent one is from a breeder in NSW. I must admit I did a lot of research on breeders and did have many questions for them particularly relating to temperament and health of their breeding dogs. I also asked about ongoing information and support from the breeder. We decided to take another white boxer because there can be issues in finding homes for these dogs and they don't meet breed standard but we have pets. My partner and I were interviewed over the phone for a few conversations, the breeder was making sure that we were serious and could comfortably look after Henry. After much emailing, phone conversations, texting etc all were happy and the breeder matched us with a suitable pup. He was delivered to SA by another breeder who did a home inspection, long discussion and met Gabby ( our 3 year old rescue). She was happy to leave him here and we were really happy to. I have no doubt that he would have been taken away if she thought we were not suitable. His sale to us is conditional in regard to desexing and diet and I have no problem with this. In fact we dont take full ownership in theory till hes 9 months old. Whether this is recognised legally I am not sure and it doesnt matter to me because if we have any problems shes pretty much my first port of call. We email regulary and she asks for updates on him. If ever (god forbid ) have to rehome him he will go back to the breeder. So thats my experience with a breeder and I was impressed that the welfare of the dog was the priority and not that I was going to hand over a wad of cash. We all got what was best, Henry has a great home, the breeder is happy he is well taken care of and we have a lovely wee rascal and a delightful older girl. They are both white, there is nothing wrong with them, they are family pets and still boxers who wear sunscreen and doggles !!!! I would go back to a breeder again without hesitation now that I know what to ask and have a bit more insight into the purebred community, I can see how some people just hand over money to get a cute pup without researching and listening to the experts. Thats why some end up in pounds and shelters like poor Gabby did 18 months ago. Edited October 15, 2009 by Miz J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 That's interesting, Miz J. So, you don't actually get legal possession of Henry until he's desexed? Worth a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miz J Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 That's interesting, Miz J. So, you don't actually get legal possession of Henry until he's desexed? Worth a thought. Yep and I signed off on that without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Skysoaring Magpie Oh, goodie, I'm a bullshit artist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
percyk Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 all good info for newbies well done the trouble ive encountered with breeders is that when you go to get a pup most are spoken for and what is left is usually the one pup they have decided to let go it is a business too so you have to be realistic many breeders just want to sell that last pup before hes too old or whatever theres little chance in some breeds to ask the breeder to pick a pup for you cos there are so few left dont know that ive ever had the luxury of choice- \one time there were two pups available and i explained the situation at home but the breeder wasnt helpful we always go to shows to get to know breeders of the breed we like before purchasing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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