Putting Your Back Feet On A Phonebook

[Staranais]

For the last few weeks, on and off in my study breaks, I've been trying to teach little puppy (5 1/2 months old) a new trick with the clicker - putting her back feet (at least one of them) on a phonebook.

She understand the clicker. She's already got putting her front feet on things on command down pat. And she can target her nose to things on command. But the hind feet are apparently really tricky.

So far I've tried:

getting her to walk forwards over the book and clicking when a back foot hits it

getting her to stand in front of the book and gently pushing her backwards, then clicking when a back foot hits it

gently picking her back feet up and placing them on the book, then clicking/marking the moment they hit

She's keen to play my bizarre games, and is quite excited when she gets clicked, but hasn't yet got the foggiest idea what I want.

Anyone got any clever hints to help me explain this one to her, or should I just persevere until the lightbulb goes on?

[Nekhbet]

can she walk backwards? dogs and realising their hind legs are controllable can be a bit of a mutually exclusive event

I have taught my bitch 'back' and she can walk backwards quite well. The treadmill also got her thinking about how she uses her back legs (was rather unco the first couple of times)

personally I would try something that involves her simply moving her back foot first, even if she rolls on her back and you offer your hand for her to kick with her back foot so she can see what she's doing and realise how to move it to touch an object.

[corvus]

Maybe this would help...

http://www.caninehorizons.com/Body_Targets.html

I've been wanting to teach all of my animals to body target and have just today been trying to work out how to do this. The above website seemed helpful.

I've been wanting especially to try this with my hare in an attempt to get him more accustomed to things around his body. I never know if anything will work with him, but hey, it's worth a try. I've also been keen to try it with Kivi, as he's not wildly into free shaping. I have high hopes for Erik's free shaping, though. We'll see.

[Staranais]

Thanks both of you!

No, we haven't done walking backwards yet. Perhaps we'll give that a try if I can't get the phonebook trick by itself in the next little while - I taught my last boy to walk backwards in heel position, so I'm sure Fledge could learn that easily. The idea about showing her what she's doing by popping her on her back sounds great except that little puppy and lying calmly on her back for more than two seconds at a time are also mutually exclusive events at the moment I'm afraid!

Thanks for the link, Corvus! Have you read any of Kayce Cover's Synalia stuff? It seems very similar, and also seems like it might be right up your alley (not that I know you or anything, so sorry if I'm presuming).

[corvus]

Yeah, I've looked into it a bit. I'm of two minds about it, but I think there's some useful stuff in there.

[TerraNik]

Personally, these are the steps that I did with both of my dogs...

1. Teach the elephant trick (front paws up on a phonebook and moving around the phonebook with paws staying in the same spot) which teaches some backend awareness

2. Teach walking backwards

3. Teach walking up stairs/phonebook.

Eventually I used this behaviour to teach my older dog to do handstands. My youngest is just about to start learning.

[m-j]

Perhaps you can teach her to target her back foot by pulsing (Kayce Cover) with the phone book??

Video yourself doing whatever you are doing with her and see if you can work out what she is getting her cue off ie getting her to move backwards onto the book she maybe watching your hand or some part of your body?? sometimes this is hard to work out as you are concentrating on her back foot to "catch the moment".

cheers

M-J

Edited October 12, 2009 by m-j

[Diva]

If she understands the training game I'd be wondering if her backend awareness needs work, as Nekhbet suggested. More a physical development issue than a training one. Walking over a horizontal ladder just off the ground (so each leg has to be lifted consciously), backing up, going slowly up and down stairs can all help.

[Staranais]

Thanks everyone!

Good idea with the ladder, Diva, I've seen that done as agility pre-training. We don't have a ladder (scummy student flat!) but I might see if I can borrow one to play round with. We've started teaching "back up" today, and she's picking it up slowly, so perhaps I'll give the back feet-phone book trick a break while we get walking backwards down pat.

She can already do the front feet-on-phonebook-while the back feet walk around trick, Terranik, but isn't terribly fluent yet so perhaps I should do more work on it - I didn't know it was called the elephant trick either! You learn something every day.

Hey M-J, the cue at the moment is definitely targeting my hand, as that's how I'm getting her to do walk over the phone book! I was hoping that if I tried to be very precise in clicking the exact moment her foot hit the book as she walked over it, she would start to understand the concept, but she's not quite got it yet. I think she just finds it conceptually really difficult to think about her hind feet. I guess they normally just follow along behind her front ones...

Thanks guys - I think we'll play round with walking backwards, the elephant trick, and see if we can borrow a ladder, then come back to hind feet on things in a few weeks.

[Jigsaw]

If you can't find a ladder use some pieces of wood or pvc pipe laid out to walk over.

[J...]

Know anyone with a Clean Run subscription? This very trick was included in this months magazine

[NaturallyWild]

Increasing body awareness could also be tried with short sessions of putting ankle wraps on lightly. You could just be a fluffy hair tie or some velcro. Be sure not to have it on too tight, just light contact, that way if it happens to be scary/offensive to them they can pull them off themselves. If so try again in a few minutes, use a few treats to distract, then take off after a very short period of time.

Get them to then walk around with them on and also include the ladder/obstacles if you have.

Sometimes you will get the legs being lifted very strangely (jerky movements, high and outwards, etc), which is an indication that they are suddenly aware that they have legs, this should shift to normal walking within a few minutes as they adjust to it.

[m-j]

Hey M-J, the cue at the moment is definitely targeting my hand, as that's how I'm getting her to do walk over the phone book! I was hoping that if I tried to be very precise in clicking the exact moment her foot hit the book as she walked over it, she would start to understand the concept, but she's not quite got it yet. I think she just finds it conceptually really difficult to think about her hind feet. I guess they normally just follow along behind her front ones...

Yes I agree and the phone book is just an incidental as is the ground they walk on(which is why i suggested pulsing with the phone book, but I think that would be difficult due to the book being bulky) .

Just another thought in brief, target her back foot your foot (to make it easier for you) put your foot on the book and then remove your foot, and leave her's on the book and then changing the cue (new cue/old cue) so she isn't reliant on your foot being there, for her to target to the book?? If that makes sense.

cheers

M-J

Edited October 16, 2009 by m-j

[Staranais]

Oooh, cunning idea M-J! Lots to play round with here, thanks guys.

We're currently concentrating on walking backwards and the "elephant" trick. Will get back to you all in a month or two with a report of success & what worked (or a request for more ideas...)