Is This Too Harsh For A Puppy

[Fin]

I've recently got our new pup and to ensure that we get the pack structure correct from the word go I'm using a method called the "Long Down". Basically it entails putting the dog in a down stay for 30 minutes every second day and a sit stay for 10 minutes every other day. It's a bit of a struggle as he gets up heaps or moves from the sit to the down stay heaps, or even rolls over and tries to roll away but we always end up getting it complete.

Basically at the end of it (and for that matter leash training as well) I feel really slack and almost like he doesn't want to be around me anymore.

What ways has everyone used to make sure that puppy knows who's boss?

Also feel like I'm rousing on him all the time...it's like they say, you want to be mates with him but it can't be like that...

[Vehs]

I've heard of this 'method' as well - basically I think it would very hard to get a pup to stay sitting for that long. Try and set your dog up for success with this approach and do a long down stay after a good play in the backyard also do it when you aren't running around the house doing other things, ie do it when you're watching TV or at the computer so the dog doesn't want to follow you around and you are doing 'boring' things

I haven't personally used this method, but I do something similar in that my dog has a 'spot' and when I say 'spot' he has to go there and stay there, if he moves from it I direct him back to it -- he can lay, sit, whatever on that spot as long as he's there - it keeps him out of the way, but he is still able to see what is going on. (his spot is a few cushions on the floor)

Are you using any treats with training? This would help you to stop feeling like your 'rousing on your dog' because he will look forward to learning things - I find I really connect and bond with my dog when I grab the clicker and a handful of treats and go over old tricks or teach new ones.

edit to add: Hopefully some other people will have more helpful ideas for you, I haven't heard much on this forum about your long stay method, so I'm not sure if it is a good thing or not....

Edited December 11, 2004 by Vehs

[Guest Tess32]

If the pup is only 8 weeks - 4 months then yes, I think it is too much. Not "harsh" as it is hardly violent or forceful, but it's advanced training and puppies just do not have that kind of stamina or attention span. You wouldn't ask a toddler to read War and Peace right?

I honestly think people get too caught up in worrying about dominance. Puppies need a stable, consistent household, but they are not on a constant watch, ready to overthrow the Alpha at any sign of weakness. Most dogs do not want to be the leader, it's too stressful.

Also you are harming future training sessions by setting him up to fail. A puppy shouldn't have to "stay" for 30 minutes and as you said, he keeps getting up and rolling around anyway. Will he really understand "stay" means "stay" in the future or will he think it means "stay there until you wanna get up and sit or roll around". Dogs learn what we teach them, but not always what we want them to learn.

The best way to provide consistency in a young puppy is to start with NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free). Simply get him to do an easy behaviour and then reward him with things like his dinner, going for a walk, any treats, playing etc. He learns that he must work for good things and it reinforces any behaviours he has already learnt.

Forgot to add, you *can* and *should* be friends with your dog. Providing leadership doesn't negate this IMO, and this is a critical period, so it should be spent bonding with your pup, and rewarding training with lots and lots of play and happiness. You want him to want to learn and love being with you, not dread learning because it's boring.

Nat

Edited December 11, 2004 by Tess32

[Tralee]

Hi Fin.

When you say pup, I'm thinking really young dog.

Basically it entails putting the dog in a down stay for 30 minutes every second day and a sit stay for 10 minutes every other day. 

Basically at the end of it (and for that matter leash training as well) I feel really slack and almost like he doesn't want to be around me anymore.

Let's say I sent my pup to you for 'creche', or 'kindy' or 'preschool' and when I came to pick it up at the end of the day you told me: "Today we started learning the long down." ;)

Would you want your human baby subjected to such ABUSE?

Or would you want your baby to have time to grow, be happy and show you its love?

I suggest that you let the pup be a pup and when it needs to learn the 'long down' (you will know when its ready) then you can restrain it "lovingly".

My God Fin. Be careful.

And if you have doubts about what to do with your dog, then you should do nothing.

Edited December 11, 2004 by pewithers

[cavNrott]

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Edited December 13, 2008 by cavNrott

[Fin]

Thanks for the replies guys...

Pewithers...ABUSE...mmmmm a little strong.

I'll cut this part out then. He's really quite smart and can sit on command at 9 weeks, hasn't gone in the house in the week that we've had him and sits for his dinner without command. I was worried this might be breaking down some of the good stuff that we've done...

[Guest Tess32]

Thanks for the replies guys...

Pewithers...ABUSE...mmmmm a little strong.

I'll cut this part out then. He's really quite smart and can sit on command at 9 weeks, hasn't gone in the house in the week that we've had him and sits for his dinner without command. I was worried this might be breaking down some of the good stuff that we've done...

Sounds like he's going to be a smart little guy anyway Really, just spend the next few months building his confidence and making training loads and loads of fun. He'll hit puberty in a few months and you'll wish you had the obedient puppy back..hehe.

Nat

[office bitch]

what on earth do you think making a pup sit or drop for such long periods of time is supposed to teach it? Try sitting still yourself for 30 minutes and see what you get out of it!

[gusgem]

I'd think you would only need to use these methods if the pup/dog was challenging your authority. Certainly my baby puppy had no behaviours that suggested she need this form of training. I think when they are just babies, as your pup is, you mainly want training to be fun, otherwise they won't want to do it! Have games with them, like tug, but make sure you always win (ie stopping on your terms, not his) so he realises you are the boss, thats all I believe to be necessary for babies.

Perhaps enrol in a puppy preschool the instructors should be able to help you if you are having serious pack problems.

[Fin]

what on earth do you think making a pup sit or drop for such long periods of time is supposed to teach it? Try sitting still yourself for 30 minutes and see what you get out of it!

But I'm not a dog nor a pack animal. I've read a training book that suggests using this method illustrates to the dog who is boss. Basically the theory is that a pack leader has certain rights, one of which is to control movement of each dog within the pack. If you restrict the movement of the pup then you are exercising your right as pack leader over the pup and he gets the idea that you are the boss.

...anyway, I won't be doing this anymore as I felt like it was really harsh and all here have confirmed that is the case. It's not like we're having dominance problems but the book I read suggests this be done regardless...so much for books sometimes (it was probably talking mostly about adult dogs but didn't really specify...).

[Guest Tess32]

May I ask what book it was?

Since buying my pup I have read many many dog behaviour/training books and at least half have been crap - some even potentially dangerous.

Nat

[Guest Tess32]

what on earth do you think making a pup sit or drop for such long periods of time is supposed to teach it?  Try sitting still yourself for 30 minutes and see what you get out of it!

But I'm not a dog nor a pack animal. I've read a training book that suggests using this method illustrates to the dog who is boss. Basically the theory is that a pack leader has certain rights, one of which is to control movement of each dog within the pack. If you restrict the movement of the pup then you are exercising your right as pack leader over the pup and he gets the idea that you are the boss.

...anyway, I won't be doing this anymore as I felt like it was really harsh and all here have confirmed that is the case. It's not like we're having dominance problems but the book I read suggests this be done regardless...so much for books sometimes (it was probably talking mostly about adult dogs but didn't really specify...).

I forgot to add - the book is leaving out something really quite important. Adult wolves are very tolerant of puppies, they do not control every moment and certainly wouldn't do the dog equivalent of anything like that. The author I think is very misguided.

Good on you for considering it all and changing your mind - I think pewithers was way too harsh with labelling that abuse.

Nat

[Fin]

It was dog training for Dummies by the Jack and Wendy Volhard (who I think are reasonably well respected ??). Fortunately I only did this about 3 or 4 times before asking...

[pesh]

Fin

Firstly, good on you for trying. Secondly, good on you for asking.

That amount of time is a little long for a pup, start of with a couple of minutes and when he completes that easily add an extra minute. Don't forget the praise at the end.

Your teaching the right thing, if pup runs towards the road or danger. He knows what the command of "drop" is. Sit, drop, stay and eat on command are very good starters.

As for the top dog, if you can get him to do the above your ok for now. But always when feeding him, you and the family must have eaten first or if it's too early for you pretend everyone else is eating out of his bowl before he get's it. Yes, strange but works. Just think of the pack mentality, leaders always eat first.

Another he's not to be on the lounge,bed anything where he's at you level.

Your doing well, just ease off a little.

[pesh]

As for you Office Bitch, if you don't have anything constructive to add - DON"T.

The man had enough thought to ask the question, in the right thead, so don't abuse someone because of common sence. We all start somewhere.

[cavNrott]

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Edited December 13, 2008 by cavNrott

[SpikesPuppy]

I have been teaching my pup to 'stand by' and he is 18.5 weeks old.

He has his leash on and is allowed to go anywhere the leash allows. But he must not pull or fuss for the 5-20 minutes I want him by me.

He is by nature a confident & potentially dominant puppy and already lives by NILIF and since I've been having him by my side he has improved immensly.

He is always given a chew toy during the session as well and it is usually before his dinner time so he gets a big food reward.

I ahve found this has calmed him down alot and the way he looks at me and behaves is more and more like the way the other dog's do- quiet loving respect.

This is also proving useful in his Show training- where he will have to stand for a little while with some major distractions going on.

[Jesami]

I have never bothered with the eating first or making sure the dog is not at the same level as I am. My young Rottweiler also sleeps on the bed. We have never had any leadership problems.

Thrilled to bits to read this. Seems to me these days that some trainers jump on this idea of keeping dogs off the bed and out of the bedroom as at least part of the solution to whatever problem you see them about.

Perhaps it does apply to a very dominant dog in which case I would make them "earn" their right to be there and maybe use a command for them to get up. (Just thinking out loud.)

There is also the issue of the dog waiting for you to go through the door first.  Mine sit when they want something and that also includes doorways but I do let them through first.

I think that's o.k. too as long as you are sending them through rather than them knocking you out of the way to get through first.

[Jesami]

I have been teaching my pup to 'stand by' and he is 18.5 weeks old.

What a great idea Spike and also sounds like you're getting a terrific response from Caber.

Do you think this would work on an 18m.o. or is it a bit too late for this particular excercise?

[Jesami]

Fin - I think the most important thing you could learn from this dilemma is that your instincts were good and that you can trust them.

This method just didn't feel right to you so you questioned it. As dog owners that's the best we can do - follow our instincts until or unless someone logically convinces us otherwise.