Can Someone Please Explain To Me All The Training Methods!

[Cosmolo]

I don't think there are any one size fits all methods either way- i disagree that you should never use any compulsion for a fear aggressive dog. A recent client had a dog who was fear aggressive with dogs and desperately lacked confidence with people. Positive reinforcement alone was not enough to change the behaviour which came about through poor critical period socialisation. An e collar, used with low level stimulation and we now have a different dog- more confident in every possible way and exceptional obedience regardless of whether dogs are around or not. She does not play with other dogs (except her companion) but can cope with every practical situation she needs to, using coping skills other than reacting. The difference in this dogs confidence is amazing- so much so that i was even a little surprised myself at the difference!

If people aren't comfortable with using an appropriate punisher or negative reinforcement, that's absolutely fine. Everybody should make choices based on what they feel their dog needs and what they're comfortable with. Doesn't mean others need to include/ exclude those things though.

[Diablo]

Not really Diablo. The danger comes from "tainting all with the same brush". Correct, we cannot read dog's minds but the reasons for their actions must come from a source. Whilst they are not complicated, it's really quite simple....emotion produces reaction (cause and effect).

most assumptions are on the basis of guess work from over enthusiastic minds.

There should be no 'guess work' when working with aggression Diablo, but thinking that the only way to deal with aggression is with a quick, hard leash correction is extremely dangerous and very incorrect!

I am more speaking on the assumption of aggression being "tainted with the same brush" as a fear response which I disagree. Anything can be misconstrude in a round about way to sound like a fear response which is not always the case. Fear aggression in it's true definition is a response caused by the inablity for flight, fearful dogs display distinctive traits in body language and the amount of times I have seen behaviourists diagnose a hard temperament adolecent GSD as a fear biter in dominance aggression is laughable, along with the positive correction methods for such dogs that doesn't work either.

[Staranais]

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear!

I don't believe that.

Do you think all prey drive related behaviour is fear based too, then?

Some dogs displaying aggressive behaviour (to other species but also other dogs and humans) appear to be motivated at least partially by prey drive. They don't appear at all fearful to me, any more than a dog chasing a ball looks fearful.

I guess you could hypothesise that a predatory dog is always driven by "fear" of losing the prey item, but to me, that's such a broad use of the word fear that it is no longer useful. Fear is an emotion that I just do not see a predatory dog experiencing. The predatory dogs I've seen look driven by the adrenaline rush of the chase and the excitement of the capture. It's a positive experience for the dog, unlike feeling fear.

I guess you could also hypothesise that a rank driven dog was fearful of losing status too, but I have seen a couple of apparently rank driven dogs that I don't believe were experiencing fear at all when they were aggressive. Noone can ask a dog what they feel, but if the dog's not displaying fearful body language, and if I wouldn't be feeling fearful in a similar situation (which I wouldn't be), then I think it's a reasonable call to make that the dog is also not feeling fearful. Excited, challenged, adrenalised, hopeful, confident, frustrated, who knows what the dog does or can feel? But in these two dogs, fear didn't look likely to me.

IMO, saying "all aggression is based on fear" is as unhelpful as saying "all aggression is based on dominance". I've had trainers tell me both things when I was working with my last dog, but my own experience leads me to believe that neither doctrine is a useful way of looking at things.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Staranais

[Aidan]

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear!

I don't believe that.

Do you think all prey drive related behaviour is fear based too, then?

It all comes down to survival somewhere along the line. I can definitely see what Kelpie-i is saying, even in the context of high-drive working line GSDs, game-bred pitbulls, and small-white-fluffy-munching Borzoi. Fear is perhaps a too specific word though? It describes an emotional state in humans.

[corvus]

In a grossly simplified view, I've come to see dog aggression more as a reactive versus proactive thing. If the aggression is reactive, it's probably closely tied to fear, but if it's proactive, it's probably closely tied to control. The way I see it, a dog that wants to control is feeling insecure in some way. Insecurity and fear are closely related at a basic level, but reactive and proactive aggression are the symptoms displayed at the surface and are not really all that closely related.

I don't think that even made sense to me.

Whether punishments will be the MOST effective method depends on what you want to achieve and how sensitive the dog is to punishments. It also depends on what you're prepared to pay and whether speed is your main focus or caution. Which is my wishy-washy way of saying I think there's a need to be more cautious with punishments than with rewards.

ETA I don't see prey drive as aggression. Chasing-biting-shaking are not in the same ballpark as lunging-snapping-fighting, IMO. I don't think dogs are being aggressive to rabbits when they kill them anymore than I think rabbits are being aggressive towards grass when they rip it out and chew it up.

Edited October 11, 2009 by corvus

[Staranais]

In a grossly simplified view, I've come to see dog aggression more as a reactive versus proactive thing. If the aggression is reactive, it's probably closely tied to fear, but if it's proactive, it's probably closely tied to control. The way I see it, a dog that wants to control is feeling insecure in some way. Insecurity and fear are closely related at a basic level, but reactive and proactive aggression are the symptoms displayed at the surface and are not really all that closely related.

I don't know Corvus, I don't see a predatory dog as being particularly insecure, either. I think it's merely aroused/stimulated and seeking reward.

It's reactive, in that the dog isn't in prey drive before the cat or SWF comes into the yard, the dog is reacting to the presence of the other animal. But in this case it's reacting to an opportunity for reward, not to a threat.

I don't know, I guess I'd buy that all aggression was caused by arousal, or by excitement of some kind, or by a strong desire to gain or escape something. But not that it's all based in fear, that just doesn't fit what I've personally observed.

Ah, just see you've edited to say that you don't regard behaviour based in prey drive as "aggression". Even if it's between dogs, or between a dog and a child, or a dog and a person in a bite suit? I guess it depends whether you think of aggression as a set of behaviours (biting with the intent to kill or injure), or as the emotional/affective motivation for behaviour. I think you have a point in some ways, but I also think you might have a hard time convincing the owner of the other dog that your dog isn't being aggressive if it is displaying "aggressively" predatory behaviour towards their dog.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Staranais

[Cosmolo]

The other thing that i think is important to remember is that a behaviour can start for one reason, say through fear, and then through repetition and experience the dog changes and is actually truly no longer fearful. So technically, some may diagnose fear aggression and that may be the correct cause but not necesarily accurate in terms of what is happening now.

ETA Many different people will look at the same dog and see different things as well. I saw a trainer recently who was convinced that a particular dog was highly, highly stressed when all i saw was very distracted and other people saw nothing at all!

Edited October 11, 2009 by Cosmolo

[corvus]

Pedatory behaviour towards other dogs or humans is certainly not to be shrugged off as just what dogs do. But nor do I think it's natural for a dog to see a small person or small dog and want to take chunks out of them just because they are running. I'd be inclined to call it predatory drift rather than aggression, but it doesn't really matter because whatever I call it it's really not on and has to stop one way or another.

Kivi gets silly with small dogs sometimes and tries to stop them from running with his mouth. He does not seem to hurt them, but I have more trouble convincing people to just hold their dog for a moment so I can get my ratbag back on leash than convincing them that he's not hurting them or going to hurt them. I've been thinking of teaching him to hold something in his mouth while he's playing with smaller dogs. I don't know how long that would last, though. He is such a mouthy dog. He can't do anything without involving his mouth.

[Staranais]

Predatory behaviour towards other dogs or humans is certainly not to be shrugged off as just what dogs do. But nor do I think it's natural for a dog to see a small person or small dog and want to take chunks out of them just because they are running. I'd be inclined to call it predatory drift rather than aggression, but it doesn't really matter because whatever I call it it's really not on and has to stop one way or another.

Natural? I'm not sure. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but my theory is that it's natural for dogs to have prey drive - to differing extents in different individuals and breeds, of course. But where the dog directs that drive to gain satisfaction, I would guess is a combination of genetics/breeding and learned behaviour.

I have a theory that a lot of the "gameness" present in some bull breed dogs is just rewired predatory "aggression". The body language when some of these dogs fight seems very similar to what I see when my own dogs go after tugs or balls (I say some, since I'm aware that many bull breed dogs aren't dog aggressive at all, and some certainly can suffer from other types of aggression just like any type of dog).

I know a lot of schutzhund trainers train primarily in prey drive - the desire to kill prey is transferred to be the desire to bite a toy then that is transferred to a bite sleeve worn by a human, then sometimes to a bare arm. I guess I wouldn't call it aggression either, having thought it through - but on the other hand, to the guy getting bitten, perhaps the semantic differences aren't that important?

We use it in SAR training too. I've had a bugger of a time the last few months trying to persuade my little pup that the point is to find the person who has hidden, then come back to me for a prey drive reward (rather than cutting out the middle man, so to speak, and chomping the victim directly). She's just gotten the idea over the last few weeks, to the relief of my very patient search subjects! I think the line between prey drive and aggression is sometimes a very narrow one.

Totally off topic, sorry to the OP, but still very interesting (to me anyway!)

Edited October 12, 2009 by Staranais

[kiesha09]

Positive training is rewarding the dog for doing something you like with a food reward or game etc. Ignore the things you don't like. Dolphins, bears, tigers etc are trained this way. If a dog is punished with a collar check they often shut down or refuse to do the particular thing because they are frightened to do the wrong thing again for fear of another collar check.

Hmmm.. I agree.. If your dog training causes a dog to "shut down" no mater what methods you are using, you are using them incorrectly.

Dolphins, bears, tigers, etc are all trained in cages and sterile environments, they don't live in a family home..not a very good argument on why a particular method should work on dogs in my opnion.

This is certainly not always the case. Kathy Sdao a well known US dog trainer was initially a marine mammal trainer for the navy. In one of her dog training DVD's she explains how they used to take wild dolphins and train them to solve complex cognitive puzzles. This involved finding underwater mines and difusing them out in the open ocean. They were sent out to perform these tasks for hours at a time and were all trained with positive reinforcement. This was one of the most distracting environments that you can imagine. Not only were they free to swim off whenever they felt like it (they never did) they also had the opportunity to self reinforce by feeding on the fish that swam past them. Not only this they all jumped into the boat at the end of the day to be taken back to the base and penned up (quite an un-natural situation for them).

Therefore I think this is a particularly good argument as to why this particular method should work on dogs in our family homes.

[poodlefan]

Kivi gets silly with small dogs sometimes and tries to stop them from running with his mouth. He does not seem to hurt them, but I have more trouble convincing people to just hold their dog for a moment so I can get my ratbag back on leash than convincing them that he's not hurting them or going to hurt them.

A dog freaked out and frightened by being mouthed.. and you want the owner to "hold it still". Crikey.. you're dead lucky you've not had a dangerous dog report made out on him.

Kivi will experience the end of someone's boot one of these days or be DD declared if you don't train a better recall Corvus. He clearly has good bite inhibition but that's simply not good enough. He'd certainly get my boot in his ribs if he ever put his mouth on any dog near me. Frankly if one of my dogs did that to another, it would most certainly be "corrected" for it and hard. It wouldn't be off leash and allowed to get into that situation again either.

You might want to consider a muzzle while you resolve the recall issue. The fact that this appears not to have been an isolated incident concerns me more than a little.

Anyhoo....

I think your average (read not professional dog trainer) person probably needs to spend far less time on the theory of dog training and more on the practical, myself included. All you really need to know surely is that behaviours you reward will increase in frequency and behaviours you "correct" will decrease.

No amount of understanding of the theory makes for a good trainer or a trained dog. I know people who wouldn't know one side of the quadrant from the other who train well because they simply do what works. They don't overthink it.

In the end, I don't care how well you can explain anyone's theory of anything.. I do care about the sort of manners your dog has and the level of control you have over it. Your dog certainly doesn't care either.

Tricks? Who cares? As I've said in other threads (and Tassie has in this one) it's dead easy to stay rewards based when their are no consequences for failure to comply. When dogs lives are at stake (as in stock chasing, car chasing, unreliable recalls) then you need to do what works. When those unwanted behaviours are self rewarding to the dog, then you need to figure out how to discourage them.. and that usually means aversives.

The proof of a good trainer is on four legs, not an opinion on a dog forum. That's how I judge handlers and its most definitely how I'd find a professional.

Edited October 12, 2009 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

I agree with PF, and thats what I help my clients with. I do not care about the repertoire of tricks they can do if they are ill mannered dogs. Tricks and motivational methods are GREAT for keeping dogs brains interested and improving the understanding between dog and owner but they are not the be all and end all. I would rather an owner can walk their dog down the street nicely and not worry it will lash out then the dog can do 5 different obedience commands as fast as lightening.

then sometimes to a bare arm.

hidden sleeve love, hidden sleeve! I just had a picture of a decoy with balls of steel tackling a malinois with no protective equipment on Since Schutzhund requires sleeve bites most wont go using too many real world situations as you want the dog to properly target the area on the sleeve. Leg bites are a no no (and decoys usually wear protective equipment in case of accidental bites and scratches) You want a dog to be using prey drive - aggression usually makes for unpredictability and lack of control by the handler. Hence the BH test for nerves before being allowed to even try Sch1.

[Staranais]

then sometimes to a bare arm.

hidden sleeve love, hidden sleeve! I just had a picture of a decoy with balls of steel tackling a malinois with no protective equipment on Since Schutzhund requires sleeve bites most wont go using too many real world situations as you want the dog to properly target the area on the sleeve. Leg bites are a no no (and decoys usually wear protective equipment in case of accidental bites and scratches) You want a dog to be using prey drive - aggression usually makes for unpredictability and lack of control by the handler. Hence the BH test for nerves before being allowed to even try Sch1.

Sorry, sorry... was just thinking of a conversation I had with a friend who used to train security dogs. According to him, the progression for them really was bite sleeve -> hidden sleeve -> bare arm.

I can imagine that type of training could cause interesting issues in schutzhund for some dogs, since I've only every seen the decoys (in life or on screen) wear a bite sleeve on one arm, and I guess noone would be terribly impressed if the dog decided to bypass the sleeve and go for the bare arm...

[Nekhbet]

or the other way around where some dogs are SO used to a sleeve that if they dont see it they dont bite ... bit of a whoopsy if you want a security or a police dog hehe

[Erny]

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear!

I don't believe that.

Do you think all prey drive related behaviour is fear based too, then?

I don't regard prey drive related behaviour as "aggression".

[Erny]

The other thing that i think is important to remember is that a behaviour can start for one reason, say through fear, and then through repetition and experience the dog changes and is actually truly no longer fearful.

IME Cosmolo, the dog remains fearful of the stimuli which triggered the fear response in the first place, but can become confident that its tactics to deal with the situation will work. So the fear of the stimulus remains, the dog just doesn't show the fear in its body language as much.

[corvus]

Kivi gets silly with small dogs sometimes and tries to stop them from running with his mouth. He does not seem to hurt them, but I have more trouble convincing people to just hold their dog for a moment so I can get my ratbag back on leash than convincing them that he's not hurting them or going to hurt them.

A dog freaked out and frightened by being mouthed.. and you want the owner to "hold it still". Crikey.. you're dead lucky you've not had a dangerous dog report made out on him.

Kivi will experience the end of someone's boot one of these days or be DD declared if you don't train a better recall Corvus. He clearly has good bite inhibition but that's simply not good enough. He'd certainly get my boot in his ribs if he ever put his mouth on any dog near me. Frankly if one of my dogs did that to another, it would most certainly be "corrected" for it and hard. It wouldn't be off leash and allowed to get into that situation again either.

You might want to consider a muzzle while you resolve the recall issue. The fact that this appears not to have been an isolated incident concerns me more than a little.

From two not even remotely descriptive sentences on the internet you got all that, huh? And without even seeing it!

FYI seeing as you seem so interested, it's happened twice outside of the backyard. I don't remember when the last time was, but he does it to Erik. Erik doesn't mind much, and it's given me some handy opportunities to work on Kivi's recall when he's all worked up and off with the fairies. I was beginning to think I'd hit the plateau with his recall, but it turns out I just needed to find something in between normal dog park delerium and total brain switch off to practice with. It was hard to find that with Kivi, but he's coming along nicely now.

Let's move on. Here's a further example to illustrate my point. There's this other dog we see at the dog park who does the same thing to Erik, but for her it's not the same drive. She tends to come on too strong when she starts to play. She just doesn't seem to know how to express herself appropriately. When Erik showed up, she would follow him and mouth at his back, but in her case I think it is a mild form of aggression that is based on her just feeling threatened in general about other dogs. And here's a wee little one that stops when you nip him. It feels like control to her, which is rewarding, and so she wants to spend more time following him around and making him stop. Before you throw your hands up and cry that you would never let a dog do that to your puppy, I'll just say now that she never got the chance to hurt or frighten Erik and you can take my word for it or not.

So, very similar behaviours, but not driven by the same thing. At least, not in my interpretation. I could be completely wrong about it. But this is why I don't really hold with the idea that the proof is in the pudding. Because what you see is not necessarily what I see and both of us might be wrong. I mentioned in another thread how I had seen trainers applying their chosen method like a sledge hammer and they get results for all that it takes a lot of hammering sometimes. Personally, if I don't see improvements within a very short space of time, I assume that there's something wrong with my method. You can get great results with just about any method. My concern is more about whether you've been least invasive and minimally aversive in the process, as that is what guides all my interactions with any animal. I think it should for welfare if nothing else.

[Cosmolo]

Sorry erny- i meant that not just the dogs body language changes to appear more confident but that the actual thing that drives the behaviour changes from fear to something else.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Cosmolo

[MonElite]

Personally, if I don't see improvements within a very short space of time, I assume that there's something wrong with my method. You can get great results with just about any method. My concern is more about whether you've been least invasive and minimally aversive in the process, as that is what guides all my interactions with any animal. I think it should for welfare if nothing else.

How old is your mouthing dog? I assume its an adult, right? And it has no recall and you have to ask other dog owners to stop their dogs to pull him off theirs?

I guess you are seeing improvement and therefore there is nothing wrong with your method, right?

Im with poodlefan, with me your dog would get the boot, that would in my eyes see an improvement in a very short time

Edited October 12, 2009 by MonElite

[poodlefan]

From two not even remotely descriptive sentences on the internet you got all that, huh? And without even seeing it!

Ignore the warning Corvus.. I'm sure you will. But if you allow Kivi to mouth small dogs that are running, it may end in tears.. possibly yours.