Can Someone Please Explain To Me All The Training Methods!

[corvus]

If there is something I need to be super reliable, I don't mess around with punishing consequences. I make sure my dog is set for success and reward the hell out of it every single time. Often that will have to mean starting in a near sterile environment and gradually adding distractions. Not every dog takes kindly to punishing consequences for non-compliance. Who could blame them? Some dogs you can't punish during training at all or they shut down and do nothing.

That potentially can work with a dog that has no history of self reward.

If the dog perceives the ingrained self reward higher then your super duper reward what do you do then?

Bold added so I don't have to retype it. That's where planning came in, one would hope. There's a lot to be said for anticipating where the pitfalls might be and training with the assumption you will hit them. If you don't, sweet. If you do, you're prepared. I know what I want to be super reliable the moment I bring my puppy home and set about working them up to it. Self-rewarding does happen, and it happened to me with Kivi's recall. I just went back to the beginning and started over. It was much quicker the second time. Having said that, Kivi is pretty easy. My hare was chewing up his litter tray for a while. I was worried he was going to end up with a belly full of plastic. I bought a new litter tray that was harder for him to get his teeth into, then I sprayed it with bitter spray, and then I made sure he had acceptable chew items in his cage at all times. I needed the bitter spray because I couldn't very well isolate him from his litter tray. It worked a treat. I swear, 99% of training is forming habits. If your animal is practising self-rewarding habits, you have to find a way to stop them, and if at all possible, offer an acceptable alternative. I have found physical barriers to be the best way to go, but as above, environmental punishments can also be a key component of breaking a very rewarding habit, although with dogs, asking for an incompatible behaviour you have rewarded heavily is quickly shooting to the top of my list of things to try.

Edited October 8, 2009 by corvus

[Aidan]

If the dog perceives the ingrained self reward higher then your super duper reward what do you do then?

Whilst there may be practical considerations for using an aversive in this sort of situation, it is not because some other reinforcer that the dog can acquire is better or stronger than any you can come up with. The question is "which behaviour is more probable?", and that is a function of conditioning.

Unless you are talking about "bribery" - which is a different matter.

[Staranais]

I sometimes think we muddle ourselves by not distinguishing between teaching rules and boundaries and behavioiur modifications in order to be able to live harmoniously and safely in human society on the one hand, and teaching that great range of behaviours which are not strictly necessary, but are highly desirable, and just fun for all. If I don't successfuly teach my dog a change of position for obedience, or a fast and independent weavers - it really doesn't matter - but if I don't fix or at the very least find a way to manage the car-chasing - that matters.

I agree.

[Kavik]

I sometimes think we muddle ourselves by not distinguishing between teaching rules and boundaries and behavioiur modifications in order to be able to live harmoniously and safely in human society on the one hand, and teaching that great range of behaviours which are not strictly necessary, but are highly desirable, and just fun for all. If I don't successfuly teach my dog a change of position for obedience, or a fast and independent weavers - it really doesn't matter - but if I don't fix or at the very least find a way to manage the car-chasing - that matters.

I agree.

Me too

[MrsD]

I sometimes think we muddle ourselves by not distinguishing between teaching rules and boundaries and behavioiur modifications in order to be able to live harmoniously and safely in human society on the one hand, and teaching that great range of behaviours which are not strictly necessary, but are highly desirable, and just fun for all. If I don't successfuly teach my dog a change of position for obedience, or a fast and independent weavers - it really doesn't matter - but if I don't fix or at the very least find a way to manage the car-chasing - that matters.

I agree.

Me too

Me three - exactly what I would have said Barb ;) .

[Diablo]

If there is something I need to be super reliable, I don't mess around with punishing consequences. I make sure my dog is set for success and reward the hell out of it every single time. Often that will have to mean starting in a near sterile environment and gradually adding distractions. Not every dog takes kindly to punishing consequences for non-compliance. Who could blame them? Some dogs you can't punish during training at all or they shut down and do nothing.

That potentially can work with a dog that has no history of self reward.

If the dog perceives the ingrained self reward higher then your super duper reward what do you do then?

One "super' reliability I require in a good hard temperament high drive GSD is that it doesn't bite people, and the "self reward" of having an aggressive lunge and people back away in fear CANNOT be corrected with a reward high enough to stop the behaviour where a punishment with leash corrections and firmness to teaches the dog that the behaviour is NOT tolerated. Strong nerve GSD's are not sooky dogs and can take the pressure, but in all honesty, I don't know if this method works with all.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Diablo

[Staranais]

If there is something I need to be super reliable, I don't mess around with punishing consequences. I make sure my dog is set for success and reward the hell out of it every single time. Often that will have to mean starting in a near sterile environment and gradually adding distractions. Not every dog takes kindly to punishing consequences for non-compliance. Who could blame them? Some dogs you can't punish during training at all or they shut down and do nothing.

That potentially can work with a dog that has no history of self reward.

If the dog perceives the ingrained self reward higher then your super duper reward what do you do then?

One "super' reliability I require in a good hard temperament high drive GSD is that it doesn't bite people, and the "self reward" of having an aggressive lunge and people back away in fear CANNOT be corrected with a reward high enough to stop the behaviour where a punishment with leash corrections and firmness to teaches the dog that the behaviour is NOT tolerated. Strong nerve GSD's are not sooky dogs and can take the pressure, but in all honesty, I don't know if this method works with all.

I doubt it would work for all dogs showing similar issues. Many dogs (in my limited experience) that show that kind of aggressive behaviour do so out of fear, quite a different motivation to actually wanting the fight.

Not all aggressive dogs are aggressive from fear, of course. Some are predatory. Some are rank driven. I'm not at all suggesting that your dog was fearful, Diablo.

But for those aggressive dogs that are fearful, it seems safer to use mostly positive methods if you can. I've seen several fearful/fear aggressive dogs "fixed" or hugely improved using mostly positive methods - if you teach the dog that there is either nothing to fear, that the fear aggression no longer "works" to get rid of the threat, or that the handler can deal with any threats for them anyway, then there is no longer a reason for the dog to be fearful or aggressive.

I'm not a professional trainer, and don't intend to become one. But I do intend to be a vet in a few years, and I expect to be (rightly or wrongly) first port of call for many clients with problem dogs, and if I can help it I won't be referring those clients to any one-size-fits-all trainers. I'd hate to refer a fearful dog to someone who was going to try to punish the aggression or "dominance" out of it, just like I'd hate to be responsible for referring a very stroppy dog to someone who refused to punish at all even if only-positive methods would take twenty times as long to get just the same result or would risk the behaviour escalating or just not really work at all.

JM(non professional)O

[corvus]

I've seen punishment make a fearful dog worse. Sometimes it's hard to tell if they are fearful or not. I've seen a few dogs that really bull in very confidently when they are being aggressive, but if you watch them before they get to that point, they spend a bit of time trying to AVOID whatever they end up attacking. They don't want to, but when they feel there's no other choice, they commit to it 100%. I grew up with a dog that was not even that obvious. She'd be barking at something she didn't like and if she was punished at that point, her aggression would escalate and she would become convinced that what she'd been barking at was the devil and she'd become completely obsessed with nailing it. Scary stuff.

[Diablo]

If there is something I need to be super reliable, I don't mess around with punishing consequences. I make sure my dog is set for success and reward the hell out of it every single time. Often that will have to mean starting in a near sterile environment and gradually adding distractions. Not every dog takes kindly to punishing consequences for non-compliance. Who could blame them? Some dogs you can't punish during training at all or they shut down and do nothing.

That potentially can work with a dog that has no history of self reward.

If the dog perceives the ingrained self reward higher then your super duper reward what do you do then?

One "super' reliability I require in a good hard temperament high drive GSD is that it doesn't bite people, and the "self reward" of having an aggressive lunge and people back away in fear CANNOT be corrected with a reward high enough to stop the behaviour where a punishment with leash corrections and firmness to teaches the dog that the behaviour is NOT tolerated. Strong nerve GSD's are not sooky dogs and can take the pressure, but in all honesty, I don't know if this method works with all.

I doubt it would work for all dogs showing similar issues. Many dogs (in my limited experience) that show that kind of aggressive behaviour do so out of fear, quite a different motivation to actually wanting the fight.

Not all aggressive dogs are aggressive from fear, of course. Some are predatory. Some are rank driven. I'm not at all suggesting that your dog was fearful, Diablo.

But for those aggressive dogs that are fearful, it seems safer to use mostly positive methods if you can. I've seen several fearful/fear aggressive dogs "fixed" or hugely improved using mostly positive methods - if you teach the dog that there is either nothing to fear, that the fear aggression no longer "works" to get rid of the threat, or that the handler can deal with any threats for them anyway, then there is no longer a reason for the dog to be fearful or aggressive.

I'm not a professional trainer, and don't intend to become one. But I do intend to be a vet in a few years, and I expect to be (rightly or wrongly) first port of call for many clients with problem dogs, and if I can help it I won't be referring those clients to any one-size-fits-all trainers. I'd hate to refer a fearful dog to someone who was going to try to punish the aggression or "dominance" out of it, just like I'd hate to be responsible for referring a very stroppy dog to someone who refused to punish at all even if only-positive methods would take twenty times as long to get just the same result or would risk the behaviour escalating or just not really work at all.

JM(non professional)O

Without seeing a dogs reaction in aggressive tendencies it's difficult to prescribe the method most suitable for that particular dog. Often the reasons why a dog acts aggressively are misdiagnosed that results in an incorrect correction training process.

[Kelpie-i]

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear!

Dogs fearful of things (other dogs/humans etc due to bad experience or lack of socialisation), normally become quite confident in their actions and will therefore project confident actions....but it's all still fear related. This is where mis-diagnosis and mis-management can very easily occur.

[Nekhbet]

how can all aggression be fear based? What about a dog that has a go at another that comes to say, share it's bed? It has no chance of losing the bed it just wants it all to itself? And then there are the A$$hole dogs, most of the time male, who go for the lunge because they want to prove a point ... they're not sorry for it and if you tell them otherwise they'll tell you off too... it can be seen as 'fear' of losing control but I see it sometimes as 'wanting' more control then is permitted for the dog. You can control them and they still push push push because they want ultimate superiority.

I use corrections with some aggressive responses but I immediately show the dog the alternative desired behavior that it should exhibit when in the situation - if these dogs 'feared' losing, one coming to mind was a very territorial x breed, then removing more decision making and lunging from him would have exacerbated fearful behavior - in fact he became more relaxed and easygoing after some corrections as he now HAD leadership and his lifes behaviors were defined in black and white for him.

Most based on anxiety and fear I treat with equipment to quash the explosion then using techniques to redirect the dogs mind and create a new neutral or even positive association for the dog when faced with that stimulus again.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Kelpie-i]

how can all aggression be fear based?

Based on information provided by Steward Hilliard when he was here in Australia many years ago doing a working dog workshop (Schutzhund)...he stated that ALL aggression has an element of fear, all to varying degrees. I aint gonna argue with the man.

ETA, I spelt his name wrong!!

Edited October 11, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

how can all aggression be fear based?

What about a dog that has a go at another that comes to say, share it's bed? It has no chance of losing the bed it just wants it all to itself?

It could be 'frightened' of losing its right to the bed; frightened of losing status, therefore needing to express it.

And then there are the A$$hole dogs, most of the time male, who go for the lunge because they want to prove a point ... they're not sorry for it and if you tell them otherwise they'll tell you off too... it can be seen as 'fear' of losing control but I see it sometimes as 'wanting' more control then is permitted for the dog. You can control them and they still push push push because they want ultimate superiority.

What point do you think they want to prove, and why do you think they want or feel the need to prove it? I agree with Kelpie-i. Generally the answer harks back to 'fear'. Even if it is fear of loss of status or fear that the status is not observed or perceived by another.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Erny

[luvsdogs]

If a dog is punished with a collar check they often shut down or refuse to do the particular thing because they are frightened to do the wrong thing again for fear of another collar check.

Hmm, that's certainly not been my experience

Than you haven't trained a border collie.

[huski]

If a dog is punished with a collar check they often shut down or refuse to do the particular thing because they are frightened to do the wrong thing again for fear of another collar check.

Hmm, that's certainly not been my experience

Than you haven't trained a border collie.

I've seen and know Borders who have been trained with correction collars, the outcome and effectiveness is totally dependent on the dog and the handler

If the dogs you've trained or have seen trained on correction collars "often shut down or refuse to do the particular thing because they are frightened to do the wrong thing again for fear of another collar check" they are either being trained on a tool that's not appropriate for the dog and/or the handler is not using it properly.

Edited October 11, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

I see the point I just dont completely agree with the word 'fear' in the context.

I suppose everyone has their own interpretations on terms and the darn things dont have a hard and fast standard at time . I make a distinction between a heightened anxiety and 'fear' per say when it comes to aggression and aggressive responses.

luvsdogs that reaction is dogs that should not be having a check chain put on them or the correction is too high. Borders seem to be good at it, they feed off more motivational then compulsive training.

[Erny]

Than you haven't trained a border collie.

I've only just recently had two BC's in for B&T. I used lure and sometimes 'Guide Show Place' to teach a skill and once learnt, an e-collar (VERY low stim and R-) to enhance reliability and further the training that I'd begun. I used a check chain predominantly as the training tool when working to teach not to pull on the lead, but also did find it of use for a later training phase of drop and sit. I only needed to check them a handful of times over all.

These two dogs were immensely sensitive and very low on confidence when they first came in. I began with positive reinforcement only and even then they would shut down on me. They were both problematic this way (litter sisters, so similar temperament) but one was worse than the other. They didn't like to look at me and were excessively submissive.

By the time they left they were far more confident in their ability; had learnt to learn; were doing 50 metre sit and drop stays with distraction (with their ears pricked, looking at me and awaiting keenly for the next command); were not pulling on the lead but happily walking next to me; were doing fast, strong and straight-in recalls; were doing sit, drop and 'drop on the move'; 'drop to sit'; "touch"; and "weave" (through legs).

Most of my work past the teaching phase of the skill was with the use of the e-collar (in the method mentioned beforehand); drive training and R+ (for one) and use of the e-collar (in the method mentioned beforehand) and R+ for the other, but they each did at the appropriate time and with appropriate intensity, receive a correction at some time or other, but they did not shut down on me because of it.

It is all about knowing what level of P+ to apply. If ANY dog shuts down regardless of breed, IMO it would be because the punishment was beyond what suited its temperament; poorly timed; combined with poor training methodology and/or due to prior such experiences, not because the dog received a punishment at all.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Erny

[Diablo]

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear!

Dogs fearful of things (other dogs/humans etc due to bad experience or lack of socialisation), normally become quite confident in their actions and will therefore project confident actions....but it's all still fear related. This is where mis-diagnosis and mis-management can very easily occur.

Sorry Kelpie-i, too much psycho analysis or someone's opinion???. Dogs can't talk and explain how they are feeling and most assumptions are on the basis of guess work from over enthusiastic minds.

[Kelpie-i]

Not really Diablo. The danger comes from "tainting all with the same brush". Correct, we cannot read dog's minds but the reasons for their actions must come from a source. Whilst they are not complicated, it's really quite simple....emotion produces reaction (cause and effect).

most assumptions are on the basis of guess work from over enthusiastic minds.

There should be no 'guess work' when working with aggression Diablo, but thinking that the only way to deal with aggression is with a quick, hard leash correction is extremely dangerous and very incorrect!

[corvus]

It's the knowing the right level of punishment that is the one that is increasingly bothering me. I find it is less resilient to mood fluctuations than rewards. With rewards, you can't really reward too much, and if you reward too little you just increase the rewards and no harm done. Unless you consistently under reward. With punishments you have to hit that window between too much and not enough.

I used too much punishment with my last dog and never recovered the trust I had lost with her. I used not enough rewards with Kivi and recovered in two weeks to find whole new heights of untapped ability in him. For all that I'd been saying it was harder to go wrong with rewards for years, there was still a part of me that was thinking when you go wrong there's a point where you can't recover the last little bits of your relationship. It took seeing it for myself to really make me realise how easy it is to correct your own mistakes with rewards compared to punishments. And it took trying it without punishments to appreciate what I had lost by being a little too heavy on the punishments.