Young Labrador With Elbow Dysplasia

[wantasounddog]

Just wondering, for other owners of well bred labradors diagnosed with elbow dysplasia at the 5 month old mark, think that they may have added to the problem by not doing as instructed ie, over exersising, playing, feeding ect?

They say its environmental aswell. Im not so sure on those stats?

Feed back, anyone?

[poodlefan]

I'm not a breeder but IMO environment does play a part in what a dog's genetic potential achieves.

Overfeeding and over exercising are practices simply begging for a pup to have skeletal issues. Most Lab pups I see are way too fat.

I know of a Golden Retriever whose owners failed to follow the breeders guide and let their pup play all day every day with their young Border Collie. Result was OCD - vet said most definitely bone stress induced.

Edited October 6, 2009 by poodlefan

[wantasounddog]

I'm not a breeder but IMO environment does play a part in what a dog's genetic potential achieves.

Overfeeding and over exercising are practices simply begging for a pup to have skeletal issues. Most Lab pups I see are way too fat.

I know of a Golden Retriever whose owners failed to follow the breeders guide and let their pup play all day every day with their young Border Collie. Result was OCD - vet said most definitely bone stress induced.

Thanks for your comment. Sure, your right, having a really fat lab and your asking for trouble, but could problems occur within 4 weeks? I should have mentioned no obvious abuse was done with our dog. The kids snuck extra food for one week until I realised what was happening.

Edited October 6, 2009 by wantasounddog

[blackdog]

Hi there Wantasounddog - very sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing.

Could I ask a few questions just to clarify the situation please.

1. did you purchase your puppy from a registered breeder?

2. did the breeder show you the hip & elbow score results for both parents (these tests are mandatory)?

3. Do you remember what the parents elbow scores were?

4. Have you contacted the breeder to discuss your problems?

5. has the puppy had elbow (and hip) xrays to confirm diagnosis?

And finally - I don't quite understand your last question - but could problems occur within 4 weeks?

If you are asking whether signs of elbow dysplasia can manifest within a 4 week period the answer is quite definately yes.

Initially it will show up as slight lameness during or after exercise.

Within a short period this could develop into complete immobility as a result of small bone particles becoming wedged in the elbow joint.

[Dogsfevr]

Hi there Wantasounddog - very sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing.

Could I ask a few questions just to clarify the situation please.

1. did you purchase your puppy from a registered breeder?

2. did the breeder show you the hip & elbow score results for both parents (these tests are mandatory)?

3. Do you remember what the parents elbow scores were?

4. Have you contacted the breeder to discuss your problems?

5. has the puppy had elbow (and hip) xrays to confirm diagnosis?

And finally - I don't quite understand your last question - but could problems occur within 4 weeks?

If you are asking whether signs of elbow dysplasia can manifest within a 4 week period the answer is quite definately yes.

Initially it will show up as slight lameness during or after exercise.

Within a short period this could develop into complete immobility as a result of small bone particles becoming wedged in the elbow joint.

Also add having a vet that knows what there talking about as well.

Have known off to many cases of OCD being diagnosed when infact they never had it.

Has the dog been x rayed ??

[wantasounddog]

Hi there Wantasounddog - very sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing.

Could I ask a few questions just to clarify the situation please.

1. did you purchase your puppy from a registered breeder?

2. did the breeder show you the hip & elbow score results for both parents (these tests are mandatory)?

3. Do you remember what the parents elbow scores were?

4. Have you contacted the breeder to discuss your problems?

5. has the puppy had elbow (and hip) xrays to confirm diagnosis?

And finally - I don't quite understand your last question - but could problems occur within 4 weeks?

If you are asking whether signs of elbow dysplasia can manifest within a 4 week period the answer is quite definately yes.

Initially it will show up as slight lameness during or after exercise.

Within a short period this could develop into complete immobility as a result of small bone particles becoming wedged in the elbow joint.

Hi,

1. yes 2. yes -mother 16 hips but breeder said thats ok (aust grand champ) dad - 7 (nz grand champ) 3. both elbows 0. 4. yes, assumed the kids extra food did it. 5. yes. funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

The dog had been good for 6 months (after meds rest ect) then suddenly was lame as buggery. New vet isnt sure if it was polly arthritis all along but first vet said elbow dysplasia.

Sorry, the 4 week comment. We got the pup at 4 months and he showed signs of lameness by 5 mths.

Ive had labs before this one, purchased from country no\show backgrounds (when I was a kid) and had no problems. Trying to establish what went wrong this time so not to repeat the drama.

[MissMonaro]

This is a subject that I have unforunately dealt with a little too often with dogs I have bought.

So here is some information that I have collected along the way.

Just because both parents are a 0:0 does not mean the pup cannot get Elbow Dysplasia.

One of mine came from a line of good scores, so on paper, all would appear good. BUT.... turns out that a certain dog or line in the pedigree when doubled up has caused a double/triple up of the gene (in a quick explanation) and hence produced a problem.

When did you have your dog hip and elbow scored ? I am assuming the dog is now over a year old ?? The dog can still be fine for a pet, but I wouldnt include it in my breeding program.

The research from the continents of Europe, Britain, Australia, and USA has shown that elbow disease is inherited . There is also information to show that those dogs with the more severe lesions are most likely to produce puppies with serious elbow disease. Consequently grade 3 elbow disease dogs should not be used for breeding and the grade 2 cases should be considered as serious risks.

Moderate Arthosis (Grade 2) = one or more of the following findings:

• (a) osteophytes 2 - 5 mm high on the anconeal process

• (b) moderate osteophyte formation (2 - 5 mm in any direction) on locations b, c, d.

The front limbs of a four legged animal act as the animal’s fulcrum. Imagine a dog as a teeter-totter. The head and neck form one end, and the back and hind legs the other end. If a dog has hip dysplasia, it is possible for him to get up from a sitting position by throwing his head and neck down, thereby lightening the load on his rear. He can also trot around with his head down. Watch for it in the show ring! It is not possible, however, for him to lighten the load on the front legs in a corresponding manner. Elbow dysplasia is most often bilateral, though one leg will appear worse than the other. A dog with elbow dysplasia will exhibit great difficulty in lowering his front when he tries to lie down. He will lower each leg a little at a time. He’ll rise to a sitting position in a similar manner.

Grade I Elbow Dysplasia

Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 3mm).

Labrador Retrievers (By Birth Year)

1990 thru 1993 3,492 Labradors evaluated, 11.5% ED

1994 thru 1997 8,915 Labradors evaluated, 12.3% ED

1998 thru 2001 10,703 Labradors evaluated, 10.1% ED ( = 1070 dogs affected)

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected.

However, multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high.

Grading System:

Grade 0 = normal elbows (no enthesophyte formation)

Grade 1 = Mild ED (<2mm thickness of new bone formation)

Grade 2 = Moderate ED or a primary lesion (2mm to <5 mm of new bone)

Grade 3 = Severe ED (5+ mm of new bone formation or UAP)

In fact, one study found that the heritability factor of elbow problems was even higher than that for hip dysplasia!

Edited October 6, 2009 by MissMonaro

[wantasounddog]

This is a subject that I have unforunately dealt with a little too often with dogs I have bought.

So here is some information that I have collected along the way.

Just because both parents are a 0:0 does not mean the pup cannot get Elbow Dysplasia.

One of mine came from a line of good scores, so on paper, all would appear good. BUT.... turns out that a certain dog or line in the pedigree when doubled up has caused a double/triple up of the gene (in a quick explanation) and hence produced a problem.

When did you have your dog hip and elbow scored ? I am assuming the dog is now over a year old ?? The dog can still be fine for a pet, but I wouldnt include it in my breeding program.

The research from the continents of Europe, Britain, Australia, and USA has shown that elbow disease is inherited . There is also information to show that those dogs with the more severe lesions are most likely to produce puppies with serious elbow disease. Consequently grade 3 elbow disease dogs should not be used for breeding and the grade 2 cases should be considered as serious risks.

Moderate Arthosis (Grade 2) = one or more of the following findings:

• (a) osteophytes 2 - 5 mm high on the anconeal process

• (b) moderate osteophyte formation (2 - 5 mm in any direction) on locations b, c, d.

The front limbs of a four legged animal act as the animal’s fulcrum. Imagine a dog as a teeter-totter. The head and neck form one end, and the back and hind legs the other end. If a dog has hip dysplasia, it is possible for him to get up from a sitting position by throwing his head and neck down, thereby lightening the load on his rear. He can also trot around with his head down. Watch for it in the show ring! It is not possible, however, for him to lighten the load on the front legs in a corresponding manner. Elbow dysplasia is most often bilateral, though one leg will appear worse than the other. A dog with elbow dysplasia will exhibit great difficulty in lowering his front when he tries to lie down. He will lower each leg a little at a time. He’ll rise to a sitting position in a similar manner.

Grade I Elbow Dysplasia

Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 3mm).

Labrador Retrievers (By Birth Year)

1990 thru 1993 3,492 Labradors evaluated, 11.5% ED

1994 thru 1997 8,915 Labradors evaluated, 12.3% ED

1998 thru 2001 10,703 Labradors evaluated, 10.1% ED ( = 1070 dogs affected)

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected.

However, multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high.

Grading System:

Grade 0 = normal elbows (no enthesophyte formation)

Grade 1 = Mild ED (<2mm thickness of new bone formation)

Grade 2 = Moderate ED or a primary lesion (2mm to <5 mm of new bone)

Grade 3 = Severe ED (5+ mm of new bone formation or UAP)

In fact, one study found that the heritability factor of elbow problems was even higher than that for hip dysplasia!

thanks so much for the info! ive done alot of research on the topic but this info is much more direct. My lovely boy is almost 15 months now and has been under the direction of my new vet for the past 2 months. xrays were taken about 3 weeks before he suddenly bacame almost parralysed. He slept all day and nignt for 4 weeks when it just happened. Swelled up like a balloon in front legs and hocks. antibiotics reduced the swelling big time but is still quite lame. we are not sure if the dysplasia has anything to do with the possible polly arthritis yet. we are holding back on more x-rays(3rd set) and blood tests as we have not even had him a full year yet and dont have endless funds to spend on an already compromised dog. He's also suffered mange, and an enlarged prostate. He is desexed now.

out of interest, how did you manage your affected dogs and how long did they last????

[MissMonaro]

thanks so much for the info! ive done alot of research on the topic but this info is much more direct. My lovely boy is almost 15 months now and has been under the direction of my new vet for the past 2 months. xrays were taken about 3 weeks before he suddenly bacame almost parralysed. He slept all day and nignt for 4 weeks when it just happened. Swelled up like a balloon in front legs and hocks. antibiotics reduced the swelling big time but is still quite lame. we are not sure if the dysplasia has anything to do with the possible polly arthritis yet. we are holding back on more x-rays(3rd set) and blood tests as we have not even had him a full year yet and dont have endless funds to spend on an already compromised dog. He's also suffered mange, and an enlarged prostate. He is desexed now.

out of interest, how did you manage your affected dogs and how long did they last????

Sorry to hear about all the problems you have been having with your boy.

We hip and elbow score ours around 14 months of age. The ones that did not pass as suitable for breeding, were desexed and rehomed to family homes as pets. However, none of mine ever swelled up, or had any form of paralysis like you are saying you have encountered with yours.

Are they sure that it is to do with the bone and not a muscle or ligament type of issue ??? The two issues might not even be related.

One of our oldies does have hip dysplasia (not one I bred). She was desexed and we still have her. We always felt that if she could have 6 "good" years then we would never put her through an expensive hip operation. She is now 8 years of age and still will chase a ball and play with the younger ones. She does let them know when she has had enough. Winter is the worst though and we ensure she is kept warm (for the athritis) and she is currently on glucosomine and fish oil tablets.

A friend of mine also has a labrador that was diagnosed with HD at 10 months of age. This dog also has PRA and was starting to go blind by 4. Her dog has just turned 11 and is still going. No operations, but just management of the issues and she gets catrophen injections.

Have you considered taking him to see an othapedic specialist ??

One of mine did cruciate damage and had a broken foot (due to another lab grabbing her leg whilst running) and the after hours vet I saw at the time wanted to do expensive surgery to fix. As she was possibly pregnant, an operation was also out of the immediate question and we had some decisions to make. I said I'd like a 2nd opinion and it was my own vet that told me to see a specialist.

The specialist splinted the leg....long story short....after pups were born, back to the specialist and he felt it had healed well and so no operation was necessary. Yahh !!

So these things are not always the end of the world.

Edited October 7, 2009 by MissMonaro

[Miranda]

funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

I must say that I'm surprised that a dog with grade 2 elbows shows such extreme symptoms. I have bred a bitch who had one elbow graded 2 and she is completely asymptomatic. The swollen hocks also have me a little puzzled.

I also cannot understand how a dog with 'balls not such a good shape' scored 10 or 11, or do you mean 10 or 11 for each hip? Were the x-rays sent away for scoring or is this your vet's assessment?

Regarding your question on management and 'how long did they last' I know of a bitch with UAP in both elbows who had surgery and lived happily for 11 1/2 years and my very first dog had severe HD and lived until he was 13. Keeping the dog lean, regular cartrophen injections, fish oil and a supplement such as Joint Guard can help a lot.

ETA that when I say I bred a bitch with a grade 2 elbow score I mean that she was of my breeding I don't mean that I bred FROM her. I've just realised that what I wrote is a little ambiguous and could easily be misconstrued. I would not breed from a bitch that had a grade 2 elbow score.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Miranda

[wantasounddog]

funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

I must say that I'm surprised that a dog with grade 2 elbows shows such extreme symptoms. I have bred a bitch who had one elbow graded 2 and she is completely asymptomatic. The swollen hocks also have me a little puzzled.

I also cannot understand how a dog with 'balls not such a good shape' scored 10 or 11, or do you mean 10 or 11 for each hip? Were the x-rays sent away for scoring or is this your vet's assessment?

Regarding your question on management and 'how long did they last' I know of a bitch with UAP in both elbows who had surgery and lived happily for 11 1/2 years and my very first dog had severe HD and lived until he was 13. Keeping the dog lean, regular cartrophen injections, fish oil and a supplement such as Joint Guard can help a lot.

Hi Miranda,

Thanks for your reply. I feel abit better now about the situation with my boy. It is still a mystery to my vet also on the degree of pain to the dog given that the x-rays weren't that bad. My dogs probably faking it so he remains a house dog.

[Wyn]

funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

I must say that I'm surprised that a dog with grade 2 elbows shows such extreme symptoms. I have bred a bitch who had one elbow graded 2 and she is completely asymptomatic. The swollen hocks also have me a little puzzled.

I also cannot understand how a dog with 'balls not such a good shape' scored 10 or 11, or do you mean 10 or 11 for each hip? Were the x-rays sent away for scoring or is this your vet's assessment?

Regarding your question on management and 'how long did they last' I know of a bitch with UAP in both elbows who had surgery and lived happily for 11 1/2 years and my very first dog had severe HD and lived until he was 13. Keeping the dog lean, regular cartrophen injections, fish oil and a supplement such as Joint Guard can help a lot.

Hi Miranda,

Thanks for your reply. I feel abit better now about the situation with my boy. It is still a mystery to my vet also on the degree of pain to the dog given that the x-rays weren't that bad. My dogs probably faking it so he remains a house dog.

So why do people still breed from a dog that has a 1 elbow score, if the scoreing says it is mild ED and these changes are being seen in a young dog chances are it may get worse. I must admit I am leaning towards not breeding from dogs/bitches that don't have 0/0 elbows scores, yes there are still no guarentees but i would like to lessen the odds of a pup with ED

Grade 0 = normal elbows (no enthesophyte formation)

Grade 1 = Mild ED (<2mm thickness of new bone formation)

Grade 2 = Moderate ED or a primary lesion (2mm to <5 mm of new bone)

Grade 3 = Severe ED (5+ mm of new bone formation or UAP)

In fact, one study found that the heritability factor of elbow problems was even higher than that for hip dysplasia

[wantasounddog]

Your sooooooo right not to breed from dogs with more than 0 in the score. That makes perfect sense. I know that the guide dog association wont use male dogs with anything but zero.

Edited October 7, 2009 by wantasounddog

[Bonny Belle]

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

[wantasounddog]

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia.

[Wyn]

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia.

Have you also informed the stud dog owner as well,the pedigree has two sides not just a mother,

[Bilbo_Baggins_Junior]

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

Very true, good post Bonny Belle!

Wantasounddog, who did the scoring of your Lab's hips/elbows? What mm's of change are on the score sheet? (there is a grade, which for your dog is obviously 2, but there is also a section to show the exact mm's of change)

I'm wondering, as your dog is showing such severe lameness, if there is a possibility of FCP (Fragmented Coronoid Process). It's easy to pick up on an xray though.

[Nekhbet]

is the pain definitely in the elbow? I would be seeing a chiropractor as dogs with a bad leg or two tend to shift the weight and create other problems like limps, strains etc. I have a severely ED/HD dog and holistic therapies got him walking again. I would consider that as part of your management ASAP, get the dog as thin as you can and get a proper good quality large breed puppy dry food. Pain will also come fast during growth spurts so yes you can see downward slips very quickly as pups.

[stormie]

I'd be getting joint fluid looked at too...

[Nekhbet]

has Pano and as stormie mentioned a joint fluid problem been ruled out?

if he's whinging he has pain. labs a tough buggers and if he's whinging it hurts. I think you just have to look outside the box and most vets automatically jump at 'oh its a lab it must be HD/ED'.

ETA if you havnt desexed already then don't. I would leave desexing until the very last thing, even till over 18 months if he has joint problems. fluctuating hormones isnt what a dog with problems needs at all.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Nekhbet