Andy Has Just Had A Fit...

[westiemum]

Hi Everyone,

Andy, my 4.5 year old rescue westie who has focal epilepsy (cerebellar centred the vet thinks), has just had the longest fit he has had since Easter - it lasted about 4 minutes and then suddenly stopped. During the seizure he is concious, can walk, isn't incontinent and just gently shakes his head from side to side for the duration - bit like a puppet with its head on a spring wobbling side to side. While he was siezing, all I did was pick him up and cuddle him until it subsided.

Now the siezure is over, he is not upset and is now sound asleep on the floor under the coffee table. He occcasionally has 'absences' (bit like human petit mals) but its a long time since he has had an episode like this - just on six months. The vet quite rightly, isn't interested in considering medication for him at this point.

Is there anything else I should do for him during the seizure or after (apart from a vet check?). I can't get him to the vet before its all over - so I'm careful to report any seizures accurately. And yes we have considered other neurological disorders - but the vet is confident its mild focal epilepsy - here's a link half way down the page to a video of another dog whose seizures look very similar to Andy's.

Given this is continuing (as I expected it would) is there anything else I should do/consider?

Thanks for any help/advice.

Cheers,

Westiemum

[Erny]

Is there anything else I should do for him during the seizure or after (apart from a vet check?).

My previous girl had Grand Mal seizures and in between times would exhibit the Petit Mal seizures. The Vet informed me that, especially for the Grand Mals, all I could do was to stop her from hurting herself during the episode. The smaller seizures weren't as bad. However, whenever she 'zoned out' I would follow her around to ensure she didn't come to any grief as there were times when she just wasn't 'there' and I often wondered if she was pacing around on some sort of remote control based on memory, rather than actually being able to 'see' in the moment.

I think seizures are harder to watch than they might be to endure. Again - talking about the Grand Mals, my understanding is that once the animal comes out of them they don't have a memory of them. But they are exhausting. So having places to zonk out and peacefully sleep was something I made certain to provide. In my girl's case, she was always at her most comfortable when she knew I was around, so I had comfy beds and mats dotted in all the living areas I would hang out in within the home as well as outside.

I'm not so sure that your little one would be the same as for my girl so perhaps I've not given a proper nor good answer. But if it helps you to know that I very much empathise with feeling a bit helpless for not being able to fix or stop these things, then this post has been worth it anyway.

I'm sure there'll be someone else who will come along with experiences more closely related to yours than mine. So hang in there .

[westiemum]

Thanks tons Erny - very kind of you - and thank you your post helps a lot. Yes you're right - I think its the helplessness which is really hard. He's now asleep next to me on the lounge - and I'm sure he'll sleep deeply overnight. So will see how he is in the morning and go from there.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Is there anything else I should do for him during the seizure or after (apart from a vet check?).

My previous girl had Grand Mal seizures and in between times would exhibit the Petit Mal seizures. The Vet informed me that, especially for the Grand Mals, all I could do was to stop her from hurting herself during the episode. The smaller seizures weren't as bad. However, whenever she 'zoned out' I would follow her around to ensure she didn't come to any grief as there were times when she just wasn't 'there' and I often wondered if she was pacing around on some sort of remote control based on memory, rather than actually being able to 'see' in the moment.

I think seizures are harder to watch than they might be to endure. Again - talking about the Grand Mals, my understanding is that once the animal comes out of them they don't have a memory of them. But they are exhausting. So having places to zonk out and peacefully sleep was something I made certain to provide. In my girl's case, she was always at her most comfortable when she knew I was around, so I had comfy beds and mats dotted in all the living areas I would hang out in within the home as well as outside.

I'm not so sure that your little one would be the same as for my girl so perhaps I've not given a proper nor good answer. But if it helps you to know that I very much empathise with feeling a bit helpless for not being able to fix or stop these things, then this post has been worth it anyway.

I'm sure there'll be someone else who will come along with experiences more closely related to yours than mine. So hang in there .

[glendabenda]

We had a farm dog when I was a child that would all of a sudden start shaking its head for a couple of minutes. Took her to the vets a couple of times and didn't find anything wrong. But mum and dad stopped vaccinating and the problem stopped.

Edited October 5, 2009 by glendabenda

[becks]

Diet can be a trigger if certain things build up in the body. Rosemary is also a trigger.

A friend makes sure to feed her dog 3 regular meals to keep the dogs blood sugar up, if a meal is late he can fit. She also keeps ice cream for after a fit to give him a sugar boost.

[Cockerlover]

My heart goesout to you ,there is NOTHING worse than the feeling of helplessness during a seizure .

unfortunatley there is little one can do except insure yr dog cant hurt itself,remove all objects nr to fitting place ,& comfort them when they come around .

I used to give ice cream after an episode .& keep my boy quite .although the fitting always exauted him.

make sure you keep records of evry fit ,duration of each & time ect .

medication & tests can sometimes assist ,but is an ongoing process .Hugs to you & your baby .

[julesluvscavs]

I have nothing helpful to add Westiemum, but please give your Andy gentle hugs from us all here in Goolwa ...

I have never experienced anything like that before with my dogs, it must make you feel so helpless at such times.

Hope he doesn't suffer too much with them, and that if it results eventually in him having to have medication, I hope that will keep him stable

for you too WM ! xoxo

Edited October 6, 2009 by JulesLuvsCavs

[Gallomph]

In her final 6 months, my old poodle would have fits. I found it hard to get all the info across to the vet just by description, so the next time it happened, I took a video clip on my mobile phone so I could show the vet.

I found that all I could do for Honey was be there to comfort her when she came out of it, and as she would get very hot, I would have a refrigerated gel pack wrapped in a towel ready to put beside her. After the vet saw the video, she also prescribed a low dose of painkiller to help with the muscle aches from the exertion.

We did eventually realize that the trigger for her was fat level in foods, and with a low fat diet she stopped having the fits.

to you and Andy, it's an awful helpless feeling watching them fit, let's hope it's a long time before he has another :laugh:

[Cavandra]

"Epilepsy " can be a symptom of Vaccinosis........Vaccines, particularly the Heartworm Vaccine can cause them. If this is a possibility in your case you may consider detoxing your dog homeopathically.

[westiemum]

Hi Everyone,

Thansk very much for all your responses - yes the feelings of helplessness are hard to handle. Many good suggestions here - really appreciate them and will give many a go. Gallomph the fat trigger is really intersting - I don't think I've heard of that before. Cavandra he had a C5 back in late January. I could be wrong but I'm doubting that would be the problem - I'm guessing a more generalised form of epilepsy from a vaccine rather than something so localised as the seizures Andy has - but I could be wrong. I'm guessing an injury to this boy during his puppy farm years - but again I don't really know. Becks thanks for the diet warning and the three meals a day suggestion - yes that certainly makes sense. And the icecream suggestion (I'm sure he won't mind that!). Thanks glendabendaand cockerlover for your replies - all very helpful.

Thanks tons everyone - Andy and I are very grateful. Where would we all be without this fabulous online community.

Cheers,

Westiemum

[DieselWeisel]

Hi Westiemum,

The seizures you described are EXACTLY the same as my Diesel's, just the head! He was having them today and I gave him a valium for the first time and has calmed him right down. I am really suprised to hear of your dog and others having the same seizures as Diesel, as all the vets and specialists were/are stumped by my case. Apparently if they are having a really long seizure you can give the valium rectily (sp? up the bum) and it works much faster than orally. Have you noticed any other changes in your Andy?

[westiemum]

Hi DW,

Thanks for your post. No I haven't really noticed any other changes - occasionally he is a bit 'vacant' but he comes out of it very quickly and he seems to have noisy 'dreams' occasionally - a little bark and some leg movement/stretching, occasionally waking suddenly as if from a deep sleep and scrambling around as if to say 'hey, what gives, whats happening?' And occasioinally I'ved noticed he seems to blink excessively, particularly on the left. Overall I'd describe him as a bit 'neurologically flakey' ie a bit neurologically unsound. But really thats as far as goes.

So have you noticed any other changes in Diesel? Did you have a look at the video in my OP? Is this what Diesel does? Have you done any diagnostics such as MRI? I haven't but I'm wondering if I should? Or only worry if the severity or frequency increases? (Andy only has a major fit that I see every few months).

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi Westiemum,

The seizures you described are EXACTLY the same as my Diesel's, just the head! He was having them today and I gave him a valium for the first time and has calmed him right down. I am really suprised to hear of your dog and others having the same seizures as Diesel, as all the vets and specialists were/are stumped by my case. Apparently if they are having a really long seizure you can give the valium rectily (sp? up the bum) and it works much faster than orally. Have you noticed any other changes in your Andy?

[~Anne~]

MRIs are an expensive diagnostic tool and will not show anything unless the seizures are caused through disease or injury to the brain. Given that most dogs suffer idiopathic epilepsy it is possibly a waste of money.

The ice cream is really only neccessary for tonic clonic seizures. It helps in two ways - by assisting in cooling the dog and giving a sugar hit. With tonic clonic in particular, the heart races and the body temp elevates and this also takes up energy.

Valium can be given rectally. I have used both oral administration and rectal and the rectal takes affects within minutes whereas the oral can take up to 20 minutes.

[westiemum]

Yes thanks PRS - agreed except that focal epilepsy is often the result of disease and injury and produces very localised symptoms as in this case (head shaking) and that's where the differential diagnosis becomes important. Causes can include SOLs (space occupying lesions which may be benign or maglignant with or without metastases) or specific injury to specific parts of the brain - and in my case the symptoms are probably localised to the cerebellum (and may be consistent with the damage caused from a kick to the back of the head - maybe - but maybe not). So certainly with a slow-growing SOL, symptoms may realtively quickly increase in frequency or severity depending on the neurological structures being compromised - and early diagnosis in this case can be an advantage - hence my humming nand harring about an MRI - which may be part of a cheaper early diagnostic solution that extensive treatment later - and as you rightly point out it may show absolutely nothing. Anyway, these 'grey' ones are always diagnostically tricky - so will discuss with the vet next time I see her. Apart from his epilepsy, he is such as superb young dog (everyone who meets him says so) - so if there is a solution to this it might be worth pursuing - we'll see.

So thanks for your post - very helpful.

Cheers,

Westiemum and Andy

MRIs are an expensive diagnostic tool and will not show anything unless the seizures are caused through disease or injury to the brain. Given that most dogs suffer idiopathic epilepsy it is possibly a waste of money.

The ice cream is really only neccessary for tonic clonic seizures. It helps in two ways - by assisting in cooling the dog and giving a sugar hit. With tonic clonic in particular, the heart races and the body temp elevates and this also takes up energy.

Valium can be given rectally. I have used both oral administration and rectal and the rectal takes affects within minutes whereas the oral can take up to 20 minutes.

Edited October 11, 2009 by westiemum

[Kirov_grrl]

for you...

I don't have any experience with focal epilepsy, but my girl suffers from grand mals.. and has been for the last 9 months... We are on meds, but still trying to find the right levels, and unfortunately she is still suffering from then

Its VERY distressing as the owner, and I understand your heartbreak.

I have started giving my dog vanilla icecream after her seizures, and have been reading up on the icepack trick.

Unfortunately we aren't able to get too close to her during them, as she lashes out

Would it be worth getting a second opinion from another vet?

I've been using the website as a reference over the last few months... http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm

Hope it helps - sorry I can't be of much assistance...

Edited October 12, 2009 by Kirov_grrl

[westiemum]

:D Big hugs to you too KG - I'm so sorry to hear of your girls grand mals and thanks for the website - appreciated. Grand Mals are more distressing and harder to manage than what my boy occasionally goes through. I hope you get the medication right as that should probably help a lot. And the fact you are asking if second opinion would be useful probably indicates that it would. Do you know of a vet in Perth who specialises in canine epilepsy (is there such a person?) or at least a vet who is a particularly good diagnostician and will work it through with you? I'm really lucky here with my vet - she doesn't give up until she gets to the bottom of things. Can any WA DOLers suggest any vets who might be able to help? I'm so sorry I can't help further - other than to say the support and persistence of a good vet is invaluable.

Best,

Westiemum

for you...

I don't have any experience with focal epilepsy, but my girl suffers from grand mals.. and has been for the last 9 months... We are on meds, but still trying to find the right levels, and unfortunately she is still suffering from then

Its VERY distressing as the owner, and I understand your heartbreak.

I have started giving my dog vanilla icecream after her seizures, and have been reading up on the icepack trick.

Unfortunately we aren't able to get too close to her during them, as she lashes out

Would it be worth getting a second opinion from another vet?

I've been using the website as a reference over the last few months... http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm

Hope it helps - sorry I can't be of much assistance...

[Kirov_grrl]

Thanks westiemum - we've been through a couple of vets - thankfully we've finally found one that seems to know what she's talking about....

Luckily I'm one of those crazy dog people - and usually do my research before and after, so have all the tough questions to ask and challenge her on different things...

Thankfully for my girl, the vet is confident that once we get the meds right - she will be fine...!

Hope you have some luck with your boy too.. but sounds like your vet is onto it!