Anyone Heard Of This 'condition' Affecting (esp) Malinois?

[Erny]

Hi Tony.

I will counter that thought with another question.

What if she's not? I don't see any gain by her in that event.

ETA: Tony - are you talking about the person who owns the problematic dog (which is what I at first thought you meant when I replied above), or are you referring to Dr. Jean Dodds in the USA, who is the one who has supplied the information, a part of which is quoted above?

Edited October 6, 2009 by Erny

[jesomil]

Gosh, that's a real shame. This is a genuine, researched health and behaviour issue that unfortunately is poorly understood by many vets, here and abroad.

One of my own dogs has bouts of anxiety, and I've never been able to figure out a trigger. When I approached my vet about testing thyroid function I was practically ridiculed. In the end I didn't pursue the test because her behaviour didn't fit all that well anyway, it was just something I wanted to rule out.

What a shame alot of vets have little understanding of all this. My own vet said there was absolutely no point in getting the test done on my dog with behaviour issues, but after reading more I think there needs to be alot more education in theis area.

Interested to hear your findings Erny.

ETA because I shouldnt try and write posts at midnight.

Edited October 6, 2009 by jesomil

[sas]

I have consulted with Robert Holmes regarding a couple of dogs who have shown aniexy which is deemed without basis, both dogs were different with only a few similarities.

Both forms of aniexty would increase to levels of aggression.

In short, one thing that some people seem to dismiss straight away is that some dogs are just born that way, there isn't a defined reason for the aniexty or other issues defined as behavioural problems - I can get into it further but that's a whole other thread.

I understand that saying that the dog could be potentialy born that way could be seen as a cop out on the owners behalf because the owner has to take responsibility for their charges however I believe that it is realistic to say straight up that temperament traits can be passed on and in-turn you can have a breed or a pattern in a breed with certain behavioural problems especially if the breed has a small gene pool in that given country or a level of line/inbreeding has occured which doubles or tripples up on a certain behavioural trait.

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

What are your thoughts?

Edited October 7, 2009 by sas

[Erny]

I have consulted with Robert Holmes regarding a couple of dogs who have shown anxiety which is deemed without basis, both dogs were different with only a few similarities.

From what I can gather, this dog seemed quite relaxed. Then the next moment, extreme fear, tail flashed under its belly, eyes wide, and aggression.

In short, one thing that some people seem to dismiss straight away is that some dogs are just born that way, there isn't a defined reason for the anxiety or other issues defined as behavioural problems - I can get into it further but that's a whole other thread.

Again, from what I can gather, that's the 'thought' that the owner has read through the USA website. IE That there are some Malinois who show this behaviour. Apparently there is only a small snippet of comment to it without much detail or information and it suggested these Malinois should be 'culled'. Perhaps it will end up being right, but I had not heard of this 'condition' affecting the Malinois in particular and am not sure if they are suggesting there is a defect that is hard-wired or whether there has been any specific research as to an underlying medical cause - perhaps one that can be treated. (I have my own thoughts that surely the matter would have been looked into beyond the basic, but I have no information on that either ..... )

Which is why the blood work-up and neurological exam recommendation. And this dog might not be one of the others. Perhaps there is something that just might be treatable.

The owner accepts this might not be the case and understands the expense might not achieve anything of help. She knows it is a "rule it in or rule it out" step.

After the latest incident, the owner packed her dog up in the car and left the venue where she was at. Normally the dog (very active, vigilent) would sit up in the car looking out the window with alert interest. She reported that her dog was instead stress-panting and layed prostrate in the car for a full 20 minutes. Her description was "comatose" - although not accurate from the literal sense, it gives you an idea of, to the owner, how unusual this behaviour in the car, was. It is the latter which gave me the sense that perhaps the aggression was seizure like activity.

Which is why I think it may be worthwhile having at least the thyroid checked out.

But yes - that it is possible that something is somehow mis-wired in this dog is not being dismissed.

I believe that it is realistic to say straight up that temperament traits can be passed on and in-turn you can have a breed or a pattern in a breed with certain behavioural problems especially if the breed has a small gene pool in that given country or a level of line/inbreeding has occured which doubles or tripples up on a certain behavioural trait.

The dog's breeder has been contacted and the breeder has informed the owner that he/she knows of no similar behaviours that have affected his/her line. I don't know the breeder and of course it is only his/her own word. I'd like to think that the breeder is a reputable and ethical one and so from that point it is necessary to believe him/her and take it on face value.

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts (apart from the above) are that I hope the dog comes back with results below the normal ranges as this would be (to my knowledge) the simplist and easiest to treat and generally bears good results with treatment.

My thoughts are that this owner clearly adores her dog and has worked hard and carefully at giving it the right socialisation experiences and has dedicated herself to its training, with high hopes of competing and that whilst money isn't growing on trees she would not be happy within herself to let the dog go (ie pts) wondering if there could have been potential for remedy and not trying at least as much as she is capable of within the reasonable. I think the thyroid test is the least that can be done as a first step.

I've given this owner a plan of action - something she didn't have when she first communicated with me and as a consequence was lost. I don't know how the plan or the results from it will pan out, but it basically comprises of three things at this stage :

• Blood test for thyroid
  
• Blood work-up/neurological exam
  
• Behaviour Consultation
  

Whether one thing leads to the next depends on the results as each one is addressed.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Erny

[sas]

Heya Erny,

Your explanation on this dog sounds like one of the dogs I consulted Robert about.

Unfortunately we were never able to get to the bottom of it - it seemed random and unpredictable, however some medication greatly assisted.

After the basic testing has been done such as medical and behavioural, perhaps medication whilst behavioural modification is occuring may assist?

I hope they find an answer, to not know is frustrating.

[Kelpie-i]

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

SAS, were the 2 dogs tested here in Oz or did the testing occur in the US? From what I have learned, there is a difference in levels and accuracy between the two.

[Erny]

After the basic testing has been done such as medical and behavioural, perhaps medication whilst behavioural modification is occuring may assist?

All of anything is a possibility at the moment. One step at a time for the moment .

The dog is booked in to have bloods taken on the 13th at which time a full physical is being done as well. I expect we'll know results of the thyroid blood test approximately 20th October.

I hope they find an answer, to not know is frustrating.

Thanks Sas. I hope so too. And I hope it is as simple as thyroid issue.

Would also be interested to know if the 2 dogs you refer to had their thyroid bloods tested out here or in the USA.

One dog that I suspected had thyroid issues ...... (the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, where the guy copped resistance from his Vet) had levels that came in low (and Dr Dodds suggested low enough to have been able to be the cause of this dog's aggressive behaviour). The dog-owner's Vet out here compared the levels to our charts and told him they were in the normal range. The Vet strongly resisted even trialling the low dose thyroid meds that Dr. Dodds prescribed.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Erny

[sas]

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

SAS, were the 2 dogs tested here in Oz or did the testing occur in the US? From what I have learned, there is a difference in levels and accuracy between the two.

Tested here.

If it were for skin I'd go to Jean Dodds if I were looking for tiny changes but for behaviour you'd think they'd be enough of a change to see on the standard Australian tests?

[Kelpie-i]

I'm not the expert on hypothyroid but I just wouldn't trust the testing system here.

One dog that I suspected had thyroid issues ...... (the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, where the guy copped resistance from his Vet) had levels that came in low (and Dr Dodds suggested low enough to have been able to be the cause of this dog's aggressive behaviour). The dog-owner's Vet out here compared the levels to our charts and told him they were in the normal range. The Vet strongly resisted even trialling the low dose thyroid meds that Dr. Dodds prescribed.

Wow, Erny...whoever this person is, I would have tried a different vet. Surely it cannot be that the recommendations of a well respected vet like Dr Dodds are shunned?

[Diva]

Accidently came across a reference to a study Tuffts University in the USA are running on borderline thyroid issues and owner directed agression, it's only just starting by the look of it. www.hsvma.org/pdf/tufts_study_ad_v2.pdf.

[Aidan]

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

SAS, were the 2 dogs tested here in Oz or did the testing occur in the US? From what I have learned, there is a difference in levels and accuracy between the two.

Tested here.

If it were for skin I'd go to Jean Dodds if I were looking for tiny changes but for behaviour you'd think they'd be enough of a change to see on the standard Australian tests?

Other way around. It's a different test, what Dodds considers to be abnormal shows up as "normal" on the local tests (at the time of writing).

[Erny]

Wow, Erny...whoever this person is, I would have tried a different vet. Surely it cannot be that the recommendations of a well respected vet like Dr Dodds are shunned?

I know. Except I guess this guy didn't. And I think the guy began to very much doubt that I had any clue about what I was doing or saying, erring on the side of the Vet who was countering my recommendations. I think his Vet had him a bit frightened to follow the medication prescription, given that his own Vet considered the findings in the normal range.

I gave him the name of a different Vet who would see differently.

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water ..................

Edited October 9, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

If it were for skin I'd go to Jean Dodds if I were looking for tiny changes but for behaviour you'd think they'd be enough of a change to see on the standard Australian tests?

The Aussie tests won't show thyroid issues unless the thyroid tissue is 70% destroyed. In younger dogs/early onset of thyroid, our tests don't show it up, even though the thyroid issues can affect behaviour.

Even for skin issues ....

I had my own boy tested with Dr Jean, given his health concerns (including skin issues). If I'd had the tests done here and they proved negative, I would have been wondering if that was an accurate reading or whether it lacked because it isn't as thorough a test. As it turned out his results showed excellent thyroid levels.

Not only is how they test more thorough, but Dr Jean also takes into account the dog's age and breed. Over here they have a chart they compare to which only caters for small, medium and large dog. IMO that's a fairly draconian way of reading results.

[Kelpie-i]

Just about everything we do here is draconian Erny. Our Vets don't even recognise that there may be some dogs with Hyperkinesis...we don't test nor recognise that it could be a possibility here in our dogs.

I will be interested in knowing the results for this dog.

[Erny]

Thank you for that link, Diva. Good to see that more places are taking interest in the subject.

With the dog in question there hasn't been any owner-aggression, which is the thing that initially made me thing it may not be likely to be thyroid related. I've done a bit of reading and research on it, but I'm by no means an expert, however I think when thyroid is an issue and affecting behaviour, aggression is not saved only for members outside of the home.

Or perhaps to put a different spin on it, when the aggression (unpredictable and unprovoked) is also directed to family members, I'm inclined to be more confident that thyroid might be a factor.

However in this instance, what brought me back to thinking on the possibility of it being thyroid related was the owner's description of how the dog was after the aggressive incident when she piled the dog into the car to drive home. I wasn't there so haven't got the benefit of my own observation but her description sounds to be like that of a dog who has had a seizure and is in that 'after aura' exhausted phase of it. And if it is seizure activity, perhaps the pressure of being in the presence of other people outside of the family members is enough to make the dog anxious enough to trigger an 'episode'.

Of course, I could end up being completely wrong but I think it is something very well worthwhile ruling out if that's the case.

I'm actually hoping I'm right because if thyroid is the basis of this dog's aggression the medication usually transports excellent results. The dog might need some behaviour modification work to cover the 'learnt' component of its behaviour, although if the aggression is seizure related perhaps the dog will have no memory of it? As to this I will research some more once we know the results.

[Erny]

Just about everything we do here is draconian Erny. Our Vets don't even recognise that there may be some dogs with Hyperkinesis...we don't test nor recognise that it could be a possibility here in our dogs.

Sadly, you're right Kelpie-i.

I spoke to one of the testing laboratories out here about it and it boils down to Australia not having the population density to make it worth their while to test more thoroughly than what they presently do. So it isn't likely to change too soon.

We do have some great Vets out here, so not to tar all with the same brush but it does disappoint me when Vets, even if they don't know something, don't seem excited/enthusiastic enough to even want to research it up to learn more. If it can't be fixed with an antibiotic or cortisone injection ......

I don't know that much about Hyperkinesis, but I do know that you studied up on it because of a dog you were working with, so you'd know more on it than I. But it is disheartening when you do as much research as you can and then it falls on deaf or uninterested ears.

When I took my boy to see Dr. Bruce Syme (2 hour each-way trip for me - worthwhile) due to his health issues, he looked at his history, in which were the results of the thyroid tests I'd had done by Dr. Dodds. Dr. Bruce nodded and smiled whilst he was reading the results of it and said "I see you've had them done properly".

Bless him for not making me feel as though I am some pedantic nutter.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Erny

[sas]

The 2 dogs I initially mentioned both had thyroid tests done that came back within normal ranges.

SAS, were the 2 dogs tested here in Oz or did the testing occur in the US? From what I have learned, there is a difference in levels and accuracy between the two.

Tested here.

If it were for skin I'd go to Jean Dodds if I were looking for tiny changes but for behaviour you'd think they'd be enough of a change to see on the standard Australian tests?

Other way around. It's a different test, what Dodds considers to be abnormal shows up as "normal" on the local tests (at the time of writing).

How is it a different test that testing the thyroid for skin issues?

[Erny]

How is it a different test that testing the thyroid for skin issues?

I think you misunderstand. The test out here in Australia is not as thorough as the one in the USA. Whether you are testing for thyroid due to skin issues or behaviour or some other symptom, the one in the USA is the more thorough and where the one in Australia might show negative that's not to say that thryoid is not an issue. The test in the USA is more likely to show it up if in fact thyroid is the issue.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Erny

[Staranais]

How is it a different test that testing the thyroid for skin issues?

I think you misunderstand. The test out here in Australia is not as thorough as the one in the USA. Whether you are testing for thyroid due to skin issues or behaviour or some other symptom, the one in the USA is the more thorough and where the one in Australia might show negative that's not to say that thryoid is not an issue. The test in the USA is more likely to show it up if in fact thyroid is the issue.

Could you post a good link explaining the differences between the tests, and how you go about getting the American tests done, if you have one handy, Erny? I'm interested, they haven't covered it in school (yet, anyway!)

And I'm too lazy to google if I don't have to.

[Erny]

Could you post a good link explaining the differences between the tests, and how you go about getting the American tests done, if you have one handy, Erny? I'm interested, they haven't covered it in school (yet, anyway!)

I don't think I can - meaning, I don't think I'm expert enough to give the differences along with the scientific explanation of which one is what and the differences.

I'm expecting someone to arrive soon and have to nick up to the shops before that, so I'm going a bit off the top of my head. I know that out here we do the T4 and TSH. With my boy I had the "THYROID ANTIBODY PROFILE + THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODY" done which they now call Thyroid 5 + T3AA and T4AA.

I'm pretty sure the thyroid antibody profile includes the T4, T3, T4aa and T3aa.

I get confused with it all.

You would understand it better than I.

I'm trying to get a link up to Dr. Jean Dodds forms. They've moved and updated their forms but I'm having trouble with it. That might make more sense than what I've given here. Stand by.

ETA: HERE's the link. It lists the testing they do in respect to thyroid.

Don't forget that they analyse it differently too. Through their studies they've managed to differentiate not only between small, medium and large dogs, but also by dog breed and by dog age. That's something that we don't do out here - it seems to just be a standard "small, medium and large dog" scale without age and breed being taken into account.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Erny