Dog Training And The Raw Diet!

[Stitch]

I would like to hear what you guys think about the effect of feeding a raw all natural diet has on a dogs behaviour and its trainability.

The reason I ask this is because I personally have been told by a local dog training franchise owner that dog owners shouldn't feed raw food to a difficult puppy/dog because it will make them more active and more difficult to train. It's the raw meat you see!!! Makes them savage!!

The same trainer told a friend of mine who had contacted them regarding lead training that they should stop feeding raw chicken necks and wings to their newly acquired puppy and feed it only dry food.

To me this is the MOST ridiculous thing for anyone who knows anything about dogs to say - but I am open to everyones opinion before I formally and totally dismiss this trainer and their organisation from my list of possible trainers to recommend to my puppy buyers.

[poodlefan]

I would like to hear what you guys think about the effect of feeding a raw all natural diet has on a dogs behaviour and its trainability.

The reason I ask this is because I personally have been told by a local dog training franchise owner that dog owners shouldn't feed raw food to a difficult puppy/dog because it will make them more active and more difficult to train. It's the raw meat you see!!! Makes them savage!!

That would even more funny if it wasn't a little frightening. A dog trainer thinks that?? ;)

A healthy dog's trainability shouldn't be affected by its diet. I have heard about links between hyperactivity and processed food additives though.

Edited October 4, 2009 by poodlefan

[Tonymc]

Stitch, if that so called trainer is that stupid I would be giving him or her a big miss. You did mention though it is a franchise. Tony

[Staff'n'Toller]

Dogs fed on barf should be easier to train as they are expending energy eating bones, using more energy in digesting raw food, getting regular outlets for their need to chew, and not consuming any extra colours/flavours/preservatives that are not needed.

[Stitch]

I hear you!!!

Obviously this trainer works on the theory that a dog that is as healthy as it can be is more difficult to train than one that is undernourished or one that is fed on processed food.

Yes, it is a franchise and one that is fairly high profile too!

[Erny]

Ninkumpoop

[Tilly]

When I went to puppy pre-school (what a waste of money!!!) the "trainer" said Eukanuba was like feeding your kids red cordial.

Some processed foods would be more likely to cause "issues" then feeding raw ... IMO

[Red Fox]

Ninkumpoop

I would think that an active healthy puppy with plently of energy would be much easier to train than a lethargic puppy? Seems a bit silly to me, I think I would avoid this 'trainer' like the plague.

So raw meat make them savage hey What about those of us who use raw meat for training then? Bad bad owners ;)

[corvus]

I had a trainer that said the same thing to me! It changes their behaviour, I was told.

I would say that potentially it gives dogs more energy. Than, say, a supermarket dog food. I don't see how this is a bad thing. Apparently it's good to feed a dog on crap because it keeps them nice and docile? What kind of talk is that?

The only thing I've found is that it's a little harder to find high value treats. When they get raw meat everyday they can get a little snooty about food treats.

[Erny]

One of the things I might ask when I consult with dogs that exhibit poor behaviour is what diet they are fed. And if it is purely commercial (especially but not necessarily restricted to some of the commercial products that contain preservatives) I often recommend a well-balanced, more natural diet.

[Bully]

I would like to hear what you guys think about the effect of feeding a raw all natural diet has on a dogs behaviour and its trainability.

The reason I ask this is because I personally have been told by a local dog training franchise owner that dog owners shouldn't feed raw food to a difficult puppy/dog because it will make them more active and more difficult to train. It's the raw meat you see!!! Makes them savage!!

That would even more funny if it wasn't a little frightening. A dog trainer thinks that??

A healthy dog's trainability shouldn't be affected by its diet. I have heard about links between hyperactivity and processed food additives though.

Pele was fed semi raw by her breeder and total raw from the day she came home at 8 weeks. By 9 weeks old she could sit, stand and drop, 10 weeks she could roll-over and high-5. Pele won "best tricks" at an Am. Staff club's Fun Day (the Bull Terrier Club and Staffy club got an invite too) at 15 weeks old. Pele passed every obedience class every month and graduated class 5 and received her "Basic Obedience" certificate at 12 months months old. All on a raw diet

Pele has earned her Companion Dog Obedience title and we are starting to work towards CDX on a raw diet. Imagine how much smarter she could be if she was fed a commercial diet????

[huski]

Even if raw diets did give them more energy, why is that a bad thing? Daisy always has the best training sessions when she is full of beans

[Diablo]

I would like to hear what you guys think about the effect of feeding a raw all natural diet has on a dogs behaviour and its trainability.

The reason I ask this is because I personally have been told by a local dog training franchise owner that dog owners shouldn't feed raw food to a difficult puppy/dog because it will make them more active and more difficult to train. It's the raw meat you see!!! Makes them savage!!

The same trainer told a friend of mine who had contacted them regarding lead training that they should stop feeding raw chicken necks and wings to their newly acquired puppy and feed it only dry food.

To me this is the MOST ridiculous thing for anyone who knows anything about dogs to say - but I am open to everyones opinion before I formally and totally dismiss this trainer and their organisation from my list of possible trainers to recommend to my puppy buyers.

Sounds like a Barkbusters promotion to buy their own food............heard that one before

Complete garbage!!!!

[Diablo]

One of the things I might ask when I consult with dogs that exhibit poor behaviour is what diet they are fed. And if it is purely commercial (especially but not necessarily restricted to some of the commercial products that contain preservatives) I often recommend a well-balanced, more natural diet.

Yes, that is true and have experienced it on a few occassions where it appears the poor dog actually feels crook with abdominal disturbances, gas, loose stools etc etc which are food related problems.

[Erny]

Have also had it where it has made an albeit small difference to a fear reactive dog and to a hyperactive dog. Not a huge difference as there was much learnt behaviour behind it all that need to be worked on. But when the diets were eventually changed there was a small edge of a difference. Anecdotal though, not scientific - there were so many other factors to take into account. But if things such as preservatives etc can affect our children's behaviour, I can't see why it would not lend itself to having an affect on our dogs.

Also, if the system is not working properly, the body may not be converting certain vitamins (if, indeed, there is sufficient digestible vitamins/proteins in the diet to begin with) into tryptophan, which crosses the blood brain barrier and in turn converts to serotonin, which is the brain chemical that activates the hypocampus, which is the gland in the animal's brain that performs a regulatory function over the expression of fear.

This is my take on some of the research I have done on the topic.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Erny

[Got Spots]

Thought it would improve their behaviour as they aren't getting all that "junk" food, also improve their sense of wellbeing b/c they are digesting their food better, giving them more zest for life therefore more eager to work

It is the best thing I have ever done for my dogs

[Aidan]

into tryptophan, which crosses the blood brain barrier and in turn converts to serotonin, which is the brain chemical that activates the hypocampus, which is the gland in the animal's brain that performs a regulatory function over the expression of fear.

This is my take on some of the research I have done on the topic.

I was going to bring this up. L-Tryptophan is an amino acid, one of the building blocks of protein. L-Tryptophan is present in most foods that contain protein (even small amounts), and is essential for the manufacture of serotonin. You need serotonin, it lets you feel happy, people who suffer depression or anxiety sometimes take drugs to increase serotonin in the brain. It also makes you less impulsive, less likely to BITE someone who pisses you off! Or less likely to break their legs if they step foot on your property...

So a diet with sufficient levels of Tryptophan is important for all mammals, so that means getting enough protein. However, some of the OTHER aminos can fill up the receptors ahead of Tryptophan (my knowledge starts to fall apart here, apologies if this is inaccurate, it is definitely incomplete). Too much protein can be a problem in itself.

By having some carbohydrates, you raise insulin, and this shuttles those larger aminos off the different parts of the body, building muscle etc leaving plenty of room for the brain to make serotonin from Tryptophan (there are steps along the way, but I'm keeping it simple for MY sake).

Unfortunately this has been very poorly studied in dogs, and the whole range of factors is not understand in other mammals either. How we adapt to changes in diet, what we (as individuals) need, how we utilise these aminos - all that, doesn't seem to be well understood. Why do some people get depression and others don't? Why do dogs diagnosed with "dominance aggression" frequently respond well to drugs that increase the amount of serotonin in their brain?

What studies have been done (and this is relevant to this thread) suggest that dogs who appear to be deficient in serotonin may respond to some of the following measures:

1. Decrease dietary protein to around 18%

2. Provide supplementary tryptophan (e.g "Behave", "Pro-Quiet", "Good as Gold")

3. Manipulate carbs and protein so that a carbohydrate meal (with tryptophan) is given in the morning, protein in the evening

So certainly if you had a dog who was displaying symptoms of serotonin deficiency, an ALL raw meaty bones diet may not be ideal. That is not to say you have to feed commercial food though, and in fact most commercial foods will not fit the bill on their own. Commercial foods with a high percentage of protein coming from corn are an absolute disaster in some dogs, as corn is very low in tryptophan.

Another factor, which to my knowledge has not been studied at all in dogs and I can find very few anecdotal reports, is the role of LIGHT in all this. Your body doesn't start converting tryptophan to serotonin until you wake up and get some light into your eyes. This is [partly] why some people suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder, and why nearly all of us feel better waking up on a bright, sunny morning (unless we drank too much rum watching the Storm blow away the Eels the night before...)

[Stitch]

Just to go back a few posts & clear this up - No it is not Bark Busters that is sprouting such rubbish.

For the life of me I can't understand how a trainer could say what he has said and obviously said it on many occasions.

The first time I heard it I was totally gobsmacked that a person in such a potentially influential position could say what he did.

The second time I heard it, which was about 2 years later and coming from exactly the same person still in the trainers position, it was said to people who had just taken on a young mature dog who they were having hyperactive problems with walking on the lead so they thought they would do the 'right' thing and get some 'professional' advice.

I tried to tell them afterwards but the problem was that by then he had gotten to them first and I was 'only a dog breeder' and not a 'professional trainer' like he was.

I figure I will give it a few months and then try again to inform them.

[Staranais]

I wonder if the trainer came to that conclusion after he saw dogs being food aggressive around raw bones?

Many dogs I've seen (including my own) aren't food aggressive at all except that they have big issues about people touching their raw bones. I'm not sure what it is about bones that makes some dogs so defensive of them, but I've seen it several times.

And perhaps he falsely attributed that food aggression to the dog eating the raw diet itself, rather than the fact that many dogs see bones as super high value food items?

Grasping at straws here!

[Aidan]

I wonder if the trainer came to that conclusion after he saw dogs being food aggressive around raw bones?

Some times that sort of conditioning can be quite strong. It could just be "superstitious learning", he saw dogs who were raw fed with behaviour problems, and others who were fed a commercial diet who did not have the same behaviour problems?