Bones?

[Mandy L]

Okay. I feed my J. Spitz Chicken necks and he's eaten like 2 everyday for almost his entire life on the advice of the breeder we got him from. We've recently decided to get him a large PORK bone (I think it's a ham bone) that's slightly bigger than his head (can't tell for sure 'cause there's too much fluff LOL) and we plan to give it to him when we eat dinner and then take it away again afterwards.

Looking around on the internet, some people are all for raw bones, some people are totally against them, and some are only against chicken and pork bones because they'll splinter etc. I don't want anything like that to happen.

Also, last time we went to the butchers and bought one of those bags labeled 'dog bones' for $1, but they looked a little fatty... also, when my mom put it infront of him, he just started growling... really scarily. He would look at us and growl (he doesn't growl at anything else except loud noises from the next-door neighbor's children) when we got about 2+m from him, he stopped and started to lick it and proceeded to growl at us again when we got within a cm of that 2m radius. really freaky experience. We tried to get him away from the bone by offering liver treats that he usually drops everything for, but he wouldn't budge. In the end, going outside was the only incentive he would take and even then he was hesitant about leaving the bone...

So how should I give the bone to him so that it won't cause crazy excessive aggression?

EDIT: It's not a SALTED bone. It's a ham-sized-ish bone that is raw and pre-salted ;) Sorry for the confusion.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Mandy L

[Sandra777]

Ham isn't actually pork - it's cured pork. I wouldn't be feeding any dog of mine ham bones - or bacon bones for that matter.

I would teach him the fine art of swapping for something better before giving him any more bones OR I would give him a bone in a confined area, say crate, playpen, gated off laundry and leave him strictly alone until he's finished.

Many dogs view bones as high value items and a fair number of people are shocked by their dog's reaction.

[poodlefan]

Firstly, I wouldn't feed a ham bone to a dog. Ham is very salty and often causes digestive upsets and pancreatitis.

Unless he is overweight or has a digestive issue, fatty "dog bones" are fine.

Secondly, your dog clearly REALLY likes bones. All that growling is him guarding the bone from anyone he thinks he might take it from him.

I'd either feed it in a crate or outside. I would not give him bones if there are children present.

For that level of resource guarding, I'd be thinking about some professional help.

[Mandy L]

Ah sorry! I didn't mean salted 'ham' bone; it's raw and pre-salted the ham bone bit is just so you can get a rough idea of the size.

[tyra20007]

When it comes to food aggression towards bones - it is totally unacceptable!

I have always given my dogs bones from a young age and then I take the bone away and walk around with it as though I am chewing on it and then I offer it back to the dogs... No matter how much they like their bones they will leave it for me on the "Leave" command.

You can begin to train your dog that you are top dog and not him at any time. Take away toys and always feed the dog AFTER the humans in the house - or the dog will think he is the boss and not you!

The best bones for a dog your size are chicken frames / lamb chine (spine) bones / Lamb Breast flaps / Beef brisket bones.. These bones can be totally consumed and do not splinter - like poodle fan stated a bit of fat in a diet is not a bad thing - the lamb chines are ideal and very low fat.

Please do something about your dogs behaviour as all dogs should be taught that aggression and food possession is not accetable.

[puggy_puggy]

I would think the bone woud be to hard for him.

[Mandy L]

He was pretty crazy over the chicken necks, when I first gave them to him, but like Sandra said, I taught him that taking things away and giving it back later... but maybe 'cause the dog bones are new? Dunno, I'll get to work on the problem immediately, but I eat pretty late and he eats lunch really early so won't he be hungry?

-thanks for the help

[Sandra777]

He was pretty crazy over the chicken necks, when I first gave them to him, but like Sandra said, I taught him that taking things away and giving it back later... but maybe 'cause the dog bones are new? Dunno, I'll get to work on the problem immediately, but I eat pretty late and he eats lunch really early so won't he be hungry?

-thanks for the help

Ah OK - could be that he views chicken necks as "just food" now, and this new bone is worth guarding. Start from scratch with the swapping idea (not taking things away, take something and give something better)

Give him a different sort of bone every night if it comes to that (assuming you have a freezer and a varied source of bones) and he may well quickly decide bones are bones are bones.

[huski]

I've fed raw pig trotters and my dogs love them.

The growling is a training issue and something that needs to be addressed now before it escalates.

I don't subscribe to the method of taking the dog's bone away constantly once you've given it to him, that's teasing him and can make resource guarders worse. All that is teaching the dog is that whenever a person comes near him, the chances are that they are going to take away his food and tease him with it.

There are lots of things you can do to improve resource guarding, TOT is a good place to start:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

[Miss B]

I get so confused about the whole resource guarding issue.

Some people say that you should never interfere with your dog when he/she is eating a high-value food item. Those same people then usually say they are able to remove a high-value item from their dog without any problem at all, if the need arises. My question is, how? Are they just lucky that their dogs are not big on resource guarding?

Then there are the people who say you should practice removing the item from your dog, replacing with an even higher value item, teaching the 'leave' command and so on.

I've also got a JS who resource guards. If he's eating a chicken wing or pigs ear, he can be very stroppy about protecting his food. I do TOT with him, and have done so since day dot - it has not made an iota of difference.

[Sandra777]

Miss B - I do think resource guarding is to a degree built in, in many cases it can be trained out of the dog but if you've got a dog with serious resource guarding issues hardwired into it then I would guess you have to start early and be really persistent, and also accept to a degree that you are never going to solve the problem, just manage it.

Personally I have never had a dog that I couldn't take something off and I would not tolerate one, other people have different opinions obviously!

I start with pups at the point of weaning though, they are fed from my hands for the first few meals, then fed from a dish I hold, then given food which I mess about with while they're eating. Perhaps this makes a difference? Mind you I've also had dogs I haven't raised which have been OK with giving things up so perhaps it's a matter of attitude

[Cavalier]

I personally dont feed my dogs bones - ever. And never will again.

One of my old (now passed) Cavaliers was fed a chicken neck and a chicken frame and the bones became stuck in his intestines and had to go through a huge surgery to remove them.

My GSD was given a lamb shank bone and a splinter of the bone got stuck between her jaws and pierced into her palate and up into her sinuses.

All the above bones were completely raw.....

After my experiences nobody will ever convince me to feed my dogs bones ever again. Its not worth the risk IMHO.

[huski]

I get so confused about the whole resource guarding issue.

Some people say that you should never interfere with your dog when he/she is eating a high-value food item. Those same people then usually say they are able to remove a high-value item from their dog without any problem at all, if the need arises. My question is, how? Are they just lucky that their dogs are not big on resource guarding?

I don't take food from my dogs as a way of teaching them not to resource guard, but that doesn't mean I can't take food away if I need to.

Then there are the people who say you should practice removing the item from your dog, replacing with an even higher value item, teaching the 'leave' command and so on.

I'd probably practice something similar to this along with TOT if I had a dog who was a resource guarder.

I've also got a JS who resource guards. If he's eating a chicken wing or pigs ear, he can be very stroppy about protecting his food. I do TOT with him, and have done so since day dot - it has not made an iota of difference.

Have you posted in the TOT thread in the training forum, Miss B? I'd guess that for some dogs, TOT on it's own will not always stop a dog from resource guarding but it can be part of the solution. I'm sure K9 would help you figure something out if you post in the thread.

[Staranais]

My GSD was given a lamb shank bone and a splinter of the bone got stuck between her jaws and pierced into her palate and up into her sinuses.

Ouch!

As for resource guarding, I don't think it's necessarily a matter of just not tolerating it, or just not putting up with it. Sure, with a softer dog you can bully them into relinquishing their bones (my last dog would give up anything on request) but a harder or more stroppy dog isn't necessarily going to put up with you taking their things away once they realise they don't have to let you.

Even if a dog respects you, sharing doesn't come naturally to dogs. Even wild wolves don't naturally share things with the boss. Sharing needs to be taught.

My young girl has moderate resource guarding issues with bones and I'm working on resolving them by trying to build a more trusting relationship with her - regularly calling her over and giving her something nice in exchange for touching or holding the bone, calling her away from the bone instead of going up and nicking it from her if I ever have to remove it, etc.

Sure, I could bully her into just giving things to me since I'm still bigger and stronger than her, and the lesson might stick even after she's grown, but I'd prefer to have her learn to relax around me and trust that I'm not going to arbitrarily nick her stuff. Especially since she's going to end up both tougher and faster than me, and it's going to get progressively more difficult to boss her round. I'd rather save the confrontations in our relationship for the really important things that I can't resolve peacefully!

[Mandy L]

That TOT thing looks really good, so I'll try it out tonight

[Sandra777]

Sure, I could bully her into just giving things to me since I'm still bigger and stronger than her, and the lesson might stick even after she's grown, but I'd prefer to have her learn to relax around me and trust that I'm not going to arbitrarily nick her stuff.

Not sure I'd want to be bullying a dog with sharper teeth than me

If you adopt an attitude that the food really isn't that important and what I've got is way more interesting than what you've got then most dogs don't seem to have a major issue with giving it up..............even if they are usually pretty greedy.

[lindadiosa]

Also, last time we went to the butchers and bought one of those bags labeled 'dog bones' for $1, but they looked a little fatty...

Sorry Mandy, don't mean to hijack your post but wonder if the bones in those bags sold at butchers are any good.

I fed my 12wk old one yesterday and it seemed to last her the whole day. She would bury it and unbury it and then eat at it and bury it again.

But the issue is this morning her poo wasn't solid and it seemed like it had dirt in it or something.

Any comments??

[Mandy L]

I don't know exactly about the bones, 'cause we threw them away after the scary first reaction we got from out dog The bones, should be okay, 'cause I seen heaps of other people buy them, but you could probably keep track of this thread and see if any one else has a better experience Apparent the 'fat' on the bone's totally fine and your dog should be too; that is if the poos afterwards got more solid... if yes, then he probably got the dirt and stuff out of his system or something...

[tyra20007]

Also, last time we went to the butchers and bought one of those bags labeled 'dog bones' for $1, but they looked a little fatty...

Sorry Mandy, don't mean to hijack your post but wonder if the bones in those bags sold at butchers are any good.

Any comments??

I prefer to be very specific about the kinds of bones I get from my butcher.

I avoid the splintering type bones like Any Pork Bones / Beef Marrow Bones / Lamb Shanks! Blaming bones for the damage these can do is an easy out for owners who don't do their homework.

The ideal bones to feed your dog (regardless of the dogs size) are bones are able to be totally consumed and will not splinter;

Lamb Flaps (breast & ribs)

Lamb necks

Lamb Chine (spinal bone)

Beef Brisket Bone

Chicken / Turkey Necks

Chicken Frames

Feeding any of the above RAW will aid digestion and clean teeth.

Get to know your butcher & train them to keep bones for you I have mine very well trained now LOL

I cannot understand why so many people are afraid to feed their dogs bones - make sure the bones are not small and that they are sized so that it does not fit in the dogs mouth so it can be swallowed. I would remove any uneaten bones (not that we have any in our house!) after a couple of hours, this stops them burying the bones and helps to keep the garden hole free LOL