Aidan Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I would also never correct him (or allow him to correct himself) for not following a command that he didn't understand. Great, I think you got my point. We just need to be honest about what we're seeing and what we're doing, then we can make informed decisions rather than emotional, philosophical or dogmatic decisions. Yes, it is possible that he has been inadvertently conditioned to lunge to the end of the leash on seeing another dog. It's more than a possibility, it's a certainty. If you're seeing it, it has been reinforced! How that has happened has not been determined, but needless to say the behaviour serves some function. What you have described looks to be what behaviourists and ethologists might call "distance increasing behaviour" - it serves to increase the distance between the two dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Sounds more like it should be called distance decreasing behaviour to me, Aidan - wasn't Kei lunging towards the other dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Sounds more like it should be called distance decreasing behaviour to me, Aidan - wasn't Kei lunging towards the other dogs? Yes. That is often what dogs do to tell another dog to rack off, lunge and bark. I can't really tell what Kei was doing from what was described, but this is usually what it's all about. It's a very dry description, describing the end result (other dog racks off, or is dragged off, or dog who instigates is removed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Trachea damage scares the hell out of me, as does simply damaging the relationship I have with my dog. Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you with that. You don't sound like the sort of person who would just keep escalating corrections to the point where this sort of damage would occur. But those sorts of people do exist, thankfully a minority these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Please tell me it gets better. Last weekend we passed 4 dogs on our walk, all in close range and all without episode. Today I could have crawled in a hole and died of embarassment I agree Staranais, doesn't sound like distance increasing behaviour judging by the OP's initial post. Here she writes that her dog was able to walk past other dogs without a problem. Fear issues which result in distance increasing behaviours do not happen overnight. ETA....that is if no major traumatic episode has occurred since. Edited October 6, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Sounds more like it should be called distance decreasing behaviour to me, Aidan - wasn't Kei lunging towards the other dogs? Yes. That is often what dogs do to tell another dog to rack off, lunge and bark. I can't really tell what Kei was doing from what was described, but this is usually what it's all about. It's a very dry description, describing the end result (other dog racks off, or is dragged off, or dog who instigates is removed). Please tell me it gets better. Last weekend we passed 4 dogs on our walk, all in close range and all without episode. Today I could have crawled in a hole and died of embarassment I agree Staranais, doesn't sound like distance increasing behaviour judging by the OP's initial post. Here she writes that her dog was able to walk past other dogs without a problem. Fear issues which result in distance increasing behaviours do not happen overnight. ETA....that is if no major traumatic episode has occurred since. Sorry, I should probably clarify. When Kei 'lunges/pulls' towards other dogs he does it out of excitment and the urge to play, not aggressive in any way I can't explain why he can walk past some dogs with no reaction and pounces about like an idiot with others. But it seems to me that if the other dog is showing interest in him, especially from a distance where he has time to build up excitement then his behaviour seems to escalate and he goes over his threshold. The chain seems to have decreased this behaviour dramatically though. Hope that makes sense ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 What sort of bark does he give out SK? High pitched or low? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) I agree Staranais, doesn't sound like distance increasing behaviour judging by the OP's initial post. Here she writes that her dog was able to walk past other dogs without a problem. Fear issues which result in distance increasing behaviours do not happen overnight. Yeah, as I have said I am definitely not making a diagnosis. I can't really tell from what SK has written, and I just had another look and she has reported in another post that he wants to play with other dogs in class, so probably not distance increasing. Either way, whatever he is doing isn't working for him any more. Mission accomplished. ETA I see SK has already replied, definitely seems like he wants to play. Edited October 6, 2009 by Aidan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 It can also be 'controlling' behaviour and/or conflict (which can occur in the onset of maturation). Difficult to distinguish unless one sees the dog in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) What sort of bark does he give out SK? High pitched or low? Appologies for the late reply, we have been at the vets He very rarely barks Kelpie-i, normally just pulls/lunges, play-bows and pounces around. If and when he does bark they are short (but not what I would call sharp) single barks, not low and growly but not extremely high pitched either -somewhere in the middle leaning towards the high side I guess?? He seems to only bark if trying to get the other dogs attention. The same type of bark that he would give occasionally during play. I have heard/seen him give off a low unsure bark when strangers have entered our property, but the bark he gives off to other dogs (when he does) is very different. He has never growled or bared his teeth at another dog. Does that make sense? Sorry if I'm not very helpful *eta Just went back and re-read my posts and realised that in my innitial post I said that Kei was 'screaming and lunging' towards the other dog. This was probably not the best way to describe it though as the 'scream' was more of a strangled bark/gag as his his martingale was tightening around his neck while he pulled. Hope that helps to make things clearer Edited October 7, 2009 by SecretKei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 To be fair, I think there are times when prong collars may be a suitable tool. Like for the Boxer that tried to attack my mother's dog, for example, and was so big compared to his handler that he just dragged her along for the ride. The thing is that with some dogs and some owners, they are so into the "positive" without any balance that their dogs can reach the stage such as the above. These dogs may then require a higher level of correction than they otherwise might have needed had "positive" been balanced out with "consequence/correction" in the first place, and the dog might not have escalated to learnt behaviour of (eg) aggression which of course in itself can be complex. Said dog had a check chain on. The problem was, I assume, no training at all rather than too much positive training. So I disagree with the argument of 'mistakes caused by using only positive can always be fixed'. It's actually not rare that they can (indirectly or otherwise) lead to more extreme behaviours that aren't so easy to remedy. This discussion is veering off topic, but incidentally, I didn't say mistakes caused by positive training can always be fixed. Please don't put words into my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Firstly the dog is "not" conditioned to lunge at all. The dog is conditioned to listen to me and follow my lead from the first day of training. But the problem is we're not talking about your dog. We're talking about someone else's dog who has been conditioned, inadvertently, to lunge to the end of the leash when confronted by another dog. Let me make it clear, I am not arguing against your methods. Although I do things differently, I'm not arrogant enough to want to dictate to others how they do things or deny that their methods are valid or effective. My argument is against the claim that the dog is choosing to be "disobedient" and is "correcting himself". If you do things your way, by the time he gets to a threshold with another dog, he has two conditioned behaviours - stay on a loose leash and shut up, or run to the end of the leash lunging and barking. If he does the latter, my argument is that it isn't disobedience, it is that one layer of conditioning was stronger than the other. You effectively acknowledge this when you don't just jump in and ask too much of the dog early on. At what point do you get to decide that the dog is being disobedient, rather than just not being ready? And this is why I make the argument. When the trainer becomes arrogant enough to decide that the dog is being disobedient, a great many misunderstandings occur that do not encourage good, effective training. Some skilled trainers can avoid this, people who get their advice over the internet might not. Aidan, If I was to train a dog that had been conditioned to misbehave on the leash in some fashion and not listen to commands like the OP's dog, I would start from scratch on the long line. I wouldn't expose it to encounters with strange dogs and begin the training on leash corrections which is unfair and cruel on the dog. I would train the dog until it was bullet proof in a distraction free environment as I explained before, then introduce distractions when and only when the dog understood and knew the commands. When the dog does get to a threshold with another dog when introducing that distraction considering that the dog has now been conditioned to listen to me from it's foundation training it has two options, either repond to my "leave it" command or disobey and lunge. If it disobeys and lunges it suffers a leash correction in not so different fashion than your mum as a kid commanding to leave the lollies alone in the supermarket when disobeying her resulted in a smacked bum. It's not that the conditioning to want a lollie overrode mums command to leave it alone causing the child to disobey, it's the conditioning of knowing mum won't clip him across the ear is why he disobeys. Dad will clip him across the ear and the kid hangs on every word that dad says, works the same with dogs. There has to be a balance of both methods used to train dogs effectively as I said before, neither totally positive or totally negative will work from my experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Dogs are not these complicated beings with 2 brains, infact they are very simple creatures with equally simple thought processes...so simple that us humans complicate matters for them by trying to look too deeply into the "why" and "what".It's not rocket science SK, balance is the key for absolutely everything in life. Good luck with your boy!! I agree Kelpie, I think nowdays there is an over use of psychology that doesn't need to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 This discussion is veering off topic, but incidentally, I didn't say mistakes caused by positive training can always be fixed. Please don't put words into my mouth. If I had been quoting you, I would have used quotation marks. What you said was : I think potential damage is always going to be worse with punishments than with rewards. This is still arguable and what I said in my previous post in response to this, stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambaqui Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I've been working so hard with Kei. From the day he came home I have tried to be consistant and keep training fun and exciting for him. He is a very fast learner and over the past few months I felt that we were making fantastic progress together. But all of a sudden it's like we are going backwards .He bores easily, gets distracted at the mere sound of another dog barking, training toys/treats that were soooo exciting a month ago are now so so (even roast chicken!). I'm thinking that the best thing I can do is go back to basics with very short, very fun training sessions, work on rebuilding his focus and just ride this out. But I'm wondering, is it normal for dogs to start pushing the boundaries at a certain age, kind of like human teenagers do? He's 12 months old now. That's a bit sad to hear, and you're not the only one going through that phase ;). My little Bella (She is a GSP) and she is doing the same thing at the moment 10 months old and as of late she is not heeling well (The reason she failed the last Testing Day) and she is overly distracted and a mile away. Oftenly she'd be watching other classes or Agility action in the pen during training. I've tried correcting her a few times, but it didn't seem to work so I've stopped using that as it not helping the situation. I've also tried using the clicker, but see act like she is deaf or hearing impaired. I thought it would be the correction chain and tried the collar they use in the show ring thats made out of some sort of material, but she still act the same in terms of behavior and attitude. Before I used to be dependent on food, but after a while that did not help her behaviour, in fact I started to think I just reward her just a little too much and too often. I'm going onto the next stage and that is to use a biscuit sort of treat that they use in the show ring, and use that to kind of tease her along and encourage her to look forward to something (But instead she would not be rewarded straight away, but at the end of training) and I have it in my hand and left her follow the food in my hand in the position of heeling. I notice after today's practice that she was beginning to watch and was responding a bit quicker than normal. So I am going to stick with a positive reinforcement training using this method and let my GSP know that I have food reward available, and use it in order to encourage her to work closely with me. The past few weeks have been tasking for me and a bit emotional as I could not understand why and how she went from so eager and brilliant to acting dumb as a rock! So thats why I went through process of elimination and work out what made her click and switch on. But I just remembered she was driven by her obsession with food and keen to work for some sort of reward (She would not respond to vocal praises and pat), so I figured out today that I had the treats and tempt her into working thinking that there will be reward! I just hope that it won't eventually lead her to a further boycott if she realises it just another ploy of mine to get her to enjoy working! But knowing how smart she is and how I am investing so much emotion over it, she may try and test me further! So all I can offer to say is maybe take it trial by elimination and figure out if there is something you used that may have made your dog enjoy working and try that, or try different forms of training and see how that would go! I am going to work on my new idea for now leading up to Bella's first trial (Possibly in November). But if she eventually does her old trick again, I think I might give her a month break from training. I will take her down to training and all, but I won't train Bella and let her have a break and just enjoy an outing and let her realize the fun she is missing out on! But at the end of the day, my club breaks up next month I think, so I will cease training for a month (and maybe half) and let her enjoy a break and have fun with her companion Tyler and have some outing at the beaches and travel to some town down the coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie1 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Secretkei I know how you feel, my 6 month old puppy is going through a phase where he is ignoring me at home and out walking etc. I have gone back to basics with him and am just trying to be patient but it is very embarrassing at the dog park when your dog is actually flipping himself over on the lead to try and get to other dogs. I had to put Mason in a gentle leader from about 16 weeks as I could not hold him on a normal lead/collar anymore. Chin up it will get better. My mom still has our family Ridgebacks and now at 10 years old they are very calm, they were a handful until about 4 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 If I was to train a dog that had been conditioned to misbehave on the leash in some fashion and not listen to commands like the OP's dog, I would start from scratch on the long line. I wouldn't expose it to encounters with strange dogs and begin the training on leash corrections which is unfair and cruel on the dog. I would train the dog until it was bullet proof in a distraction free environment as I explained before, then introduce distractions when and only when the dog understood and knew the commands. I know, Diablo. I am not questioning your methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AusDog Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) I personally wouldn't bother with Mark Singer............PM me I can explain why!!!.[/b][/color]I would seriously recommend to join the Adelaide Sportdog Club and train in Schutzhund obediance which is open to any breed and most importantly, the trainers are great, specialise in large difficult to handle breeds and they couldn't care less how disobediant and disruptive your dog may be as their mission is to train anything at your own pace. It's one of very few clubs where they welcome poor behaviour and appreciate your membership and cannot be more helpful, real dedicated dog training people. There are GSD's, Malanios, Rotties, Dobes, Labs, Amstaffs etc training in obediance. Schutzhund obediance is "extreme" obediance that can take the dog from being uncotrollable on leash to complete off leash reliability, far exceeds that of any average obediance training and it's good fun too. http://www.adelaidesportdogclub.com/ Diablo - This is Mark Singer. I would VERY much like to know what issues you have with me, if any? I have also PM'd you and have contacted Michael at the Adelaide Dog Sport Club to find out who you are. If you do have an issue with me, I would appreciate if you would contact me and discuss this matter. I have a very good reputation in Adelaide, and I don't need someone making ambiguous comments that can be taken negatively. If anybody has issues with my services, training methods, or professional attitude, I am quite willing to talk with them. You are the only one on here that appears to have an issue with me. Feel free to contact me direct to discuss this. Or when I find out who you are, I will contact you and see if this matter can be resolved amicably. Thank you Mark Edited October 7, 2009 by AusDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AusDog Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) I agree dog sport obedience is an excellent way to carry out your dogs formal obedience training However I do not necessarily agree that it is 'always' suited for the average companion/pet dog owner. Most training for dog sport is carried out in high drive that may not be condusive to a home environment situation for the average pet dog owner, depending on what he/she is trying to achieve. Sometimes it's the over stimulation of the dogs drives that creates many behavioural problems in the home environment. Yes a dog should have his/her natural drives satisfied of course. But not necessarily for short burst obedience training, and hoping that this will create a well behaved pet dog in the home. I have as yet to read all of this thread to know why it was recommended. I will do so tonight and contact you by PM SecretKei. I have recommended a few of my clients to the Adelaide Sport Dog Club, as I am receiving excellent feedback about them. Mark Edited October 7, 2009 by AusDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Welcome to the forum Mark, I've heard you spoken highly of by a few trainers that I respect, so look forward to reading your thoughts in future. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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