Pushing The Boundaries At A Certain Age?

[Red Fox]

I've been working so hard with Kei. From the day he came home I have tried to be consistant and keep training fun and exciting for him. He is a very fast learner and over the past few months I felt that we were making fantastic progress together. But all of a sudden it's like we are going backwards :D .

He bores easily, gets distracted at the mere sound of another dog barking, training toys/treats that were soooo exciting a month ago are now so so (even roast chicken!).

I'm thinking that the best thing I can do is go back to basics with very short, very fun training sessions, work on rebuilding his focus and just ride this out.

But I'm wondering, is it normal for dogs to start pushing the boundaries at a certain age, kind of like human teenagers do? He's 12 months old now.

Cut to todays mishap as I very much need to vent-

Calmly walking along, all going well when I see an off lead dog bounding towards us. Owner calls dog back and leashes it then continues to walk towards us. By this stage Kei is VERY excited so I walk him over to the grass at the side of the path and ask him to sit so that the other dog can pass.

All is going well, Kei is siting, I have a nice tight grip on the leash (It's wrapped around my hand so that he must sit close to me and cannot go lunging out in front) When all of a sudden Kei decides to turn and pull himself between my legs!

So there I am, hand stuck tight between my legs with a 40kg dog pulling the other way Couldn't let go of the leash, couldn't get my leg over it, Kei is lunging and screaming at the other dog, other dog is lunging at him very excited too (but not going backwards like me!) and other owner is saying BAD DOG BAD DOG! (not sure whether she was talking to her dog or mine - my head was by then between my legs. Meanwhile the couple sitting on the park bench are glaring at us and my very helpful 10 year old is asking me why Kei isn't better trained (NOT helpful!).

I eventually ended up on my arse, regained control and we all walked home very quitely with me trying not to burst into tears :p

Please tell me it gets better. Last weekend we passed 4 dogs on our walk, all in close range and all without episode. Today I could have crawled in a hole and died of embarassment :p

[Tilly]

Can't offer advice other then to say - yes they do try pushing the boundaries ... my GSD pup started about 2 weeks ago and he is not quite 6 months old yet.

My older GSD boy was a complete nightmare - he decided to chase my mothers cat, got to the end of the leash and kept going with me flying through the air and when I hit the ground the dog came back to "check on me" and then sat on me. I ended up with a dislocated shoulder, cracked bone in the elbow, sprained wrist, dislocated finger and a number of impressive bruises ... thanksfully it was not in front of any strangers - just my mum

I swear the more trouble they are ... the cuter they are - just so we don't disown them :p

[Red Fox]

Thanks Tilly it's good to know I'm not the only one. That does sound painful though!

When i read back through my post it did seem pretty funny. Though I can tell you at the time it was most certainly not :D

Kei is the perfect angel when we visit my Mum though. He just LOVES to show her how obedient he is. Tis just out in public that he becomes a monster :p

[:ange:]

SK I really can sympathise with you :p I know the pain of walking home after an embarressing incedent almost in tears. Being kicked out of obedience class and told to come back when she's 'grown a brain' when my girl was 6 months was one such occasion. Yes they do go through their rebellious stage and whilst it feels like one giant leap backwards Kei will come good and it's like nothing ever happened! My girl Ruby goes through stages like this where her recall can be really very great then all of a sudden she decides one day to not bother coming back to my recalls and I look like a right fool standing in the middle of the park while my dog just meanders away.. With our second one just arrived I've got all this to look forward to all over again.. woooo hoooo

[Red Fox]

Ah, so there's hope then.

Ruby sounds like Kei -lightening fast recall one day, selective deafness the next. Obedience class is also a nightmare for us as all he wants to do is play with the other dogs and goes into complete overdrive. We haven't been for 3 months due to OH working nights. I'd dearly love to return now the work scedule has changed and the nights are getting warmer. Though Kei is 10kg heavier now, much stronger and just as excitable. I think we may be sitting on the sidelines for the first few weeks, it may be all the excitement that he can bare!

[:ange:]

That's why we got 'banned' SK.. there was just no point in being there at all. She was so unfocused with all the other dogs that it was just a complete waste of time and money for us. I perservered with her at homw without distractions and she has come good - kind of. LOL Good luck.. just rememeber - breathe, assertive, breathe.

[sas]

I think it's natural to have moments when you go backwards :p

One piece of advice is don't wrap the lead around your hand, as you've found out it can be dangerous and you can loose control of the dog when you can't get your hand to where it needs to be

Just the act of wrapping the lead around your hand can cause the dog to heighten its' aniexty or excitment.

If you're not comfortable in controlling the dog with the current collar, perhaps look at changing the collar to something that gives you more confidence ie. head halters, neck halter like the ceaser ones etc. I'm not a huge fan of head halters but I think they have their place and if they can help you increase your confidence of controling your dog around other dogs that would be a positive thing :D

Perhaps return to the basics and reinforce Leadership :p

You're not alone, many people have gone through this before or are experiencing now

I've ended up on my ass a few times when Dante was a pratt of a teenager, I know the feeling of the shame and anger that comes with that but if you let those feelings impact you the dog will pick up on them and run with them.

Good Luck!

Edited October 1, 2009 by sas

[persephone]

secretkei- not much advice on his training, sorry... but please do NOT wrap the leash around your hand again... it could be worse next time :p

if you want a short leash... just hold it further down towards the dog. The slack can just hang, or be loosely held with your other hand.

I agree- when the dog feels/sees you wrapping the leash around your hand, he will start to get excited/anxious, as he anticipates what's coming!

[Red Fox]

Thanks sas and persephone :D

I have learnt my lesson with the leash and will be more careful how I hold it in future. Silly thing is that my leash has 2 handles, including one at a traffic leash length that I can easily grab, silly me .

Sas, I'm not comfortable with head halters. I have tried once and never again. BUT, I have over the past week experimented with walking Kei on a check chain which is a first for me.

So far we have had very good results. I have only used very light corrections on him when need be and have noticed that he seems quite comfortable wearing it and will walk close to me. Though we have'nt encountered any other dogs on our check chain walks yet so I can't say how how would react on it in that situation -my fear is that he would strangle himself.

*eta, he was NOT wearing the check chain yesterday.

I do try very hard not to place him in situations where he will exceed his threshold (like yesterday ). It's just such a horrible feeling to have other people glaring at me like I'm the devil. Especially when I have put in so much hard work with him. I know it's not his fault, he's still young and excitable and then I feel terrible for putting him in that situation in the first place.

Still, it's nice to know that I'm not alone in my 'walk of shame'

BTW, if anyone can offer some tips on the correct way to walk a dog on a check chain they would be greatly appreciated :D

I have been shown how to check the dog correctly and always make sure that he is walking on a loose leash on my left side when wearing it. Is there anything else I should know?

Edited October 1, 2009 by SecretKei

[laeral]

kei I do feel for you. I to have had episodes of utter humiliation and shame, and have been in tears over my dogs behavior. One day she was fine the next an evil brat again. My GSD is very excitable and screams like a banshee when she gets this way. Some days I would leave obedience training in tears, and some days full of pride at the progress we had made. Just remember that you are making progress and it is normal to have a few setbacks.

As for the age thing, my GSD definitely was at her worst around that age. Rebellious teenager to the max. It does get better though, just keep persisting.

Its interesting that you should post this today as last night I had such an episode. My girl is 2.5 though and should be well out of this by now. For about the last year about, Micas recall has been getting better and better. For the last few months she has been out and about with me on the property with no dramas and lightning fast recalls. Last night I let her out of the gate and she just took off. Streaked across my paddock and my neighbors paddock to their dam. My neighbors dam is the size of a small lake, with an island in the middle, and lucky for me one lone goose

She swam around and around in that dam for 30mins with me running around trying to catch her. Eventually I was able to herd the poor goose into an inlet with a jetty type thing that I could launch off and grab the dog. And let me tell you the water was COLD. I couldn't beleive the behavior, we haven't had a recall problem in well over 6 months and now this. I did want to cry

ange165 I cant believe you got banned from class. Did they offer any advice or assistance to correct the behavior?

[:ange:]

Laerl: This was in Orange, NSW and unfortunately there's only 2 obedience groups to go with there. I wasn't a fan of one woman who was conducting one class because she had told us that if she's sees us doing such and such she would take our dogs off us (like check chains etc). I went with the other and they were pretty much just as bad. After I think our fourth lesson the woman who had tried doing one on one time with Ruby politely came over and told me that she was just too unsettled (this was after she had pulled me over hehe) and that we wouldn't learn anything further today. Come back when she's settled down more and has grown out of puppy brain.

Here I am at 22 months and I can tell you her puppy brain is no different!!

I did feel very despondant and let down and that there was no help for me or my dog. I didn't give up with her and she has gotten better.

[Nekhbet]

sorry a dog of that size with that behavior needs a corrective device, be it a chain, DD collar or a prong.

that's why progress is slow - the is no repercussion to their carrying on. I would keep the check chain on Kei every time you are out in public and as soon as he starts any hint of carrying on, CORRECT WELL and turn around happily 'come on Kei, heel!'

correction comes from the chain, not you. If you are always positive and bubbly, and the correction only comes from the chain you will find his behavior decreases faster and he will look to you more. At the moment it sounds like you are working for the dog more then the dog works for you he'll come round he just needs a good proverbial boot up the backside

Come back when she's settled down more and has grown out of puppy brain.

what absolute rubbish and how dare she say that to you! They are there to provide training help not just take the easy dogs to make the place look good

with all the horror stories I'm hearing lately there is no surprise owners get so frustrated. Looks like there is few real trainers out there yet they are happy to lay out a hand and take your cash

Edited October 2, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Erny]

SK - I know exactly how strong our dogs can be.

Try a PPCollar. What I like about them is that they don't jar the throat, muscle or skeleton as other tools can and do. I also like the fact that the handler doesn't need to move as much to apply any correction and this leads to your body language appearing very calm and sedate. This in itself has a bearing on the dog's behaviour.

Get some instruction in it if you're not sure or familiar with them (as I would advise to anyone for any training tool).

You're not in Victoria so you should not have any problems.

[Red Fox]

Thanks Nekhbet, I will start using the check chain on all walks and see how we go. To be fair, Kei does walk well on leash 99% of the time. It is only when we encounter other dogs in close range that we have dramas.

Erny, can you suggest anyone in SA who could give me a bit of instuction on how to fit and use a prong collar?

To be honest I would love to try one with Kei. I think I would feel more comfortable with using prong as opposed to the chain if I could have some proper instruction. I did ask about them at obedience earlier this year and was told that they are 'cruel' and 'illegal' and i was NEVER to use one on my dog. Of course I do not agree with that at all but could not see the point in pushing the argument further in that situation.

I know Steve (K9 Force) sells prongs but he is obviously a long way away from me. What about Mark Singer (sp?). I've read a few good things about him on the forums here. Still a few hour drive away from where I live but I'm sure I could make the trip if need be. Does anyone have any contact details for him?

Edited October 2, 2009 by SecretKei

[Aidan]

I think we may be sitting on the sidelines for the first few weeks, it may be all the excitement that he can bare!

Good idea, although don't just sit! Heel, drop, and recall as well.

Get as far away from the other dogs as you need to set Kei up for success. If he is succeeding, you are reinforcing, if you are reinforcing, he will give you more of it. You could do this near an off-leash dog park as well, particularly if it is fenced so the other dogs can't seek you out as you get better and can move in closer.

[Erny]

Erny, can you suggest anyone in SA who could give me a bit of instruction on how to fit and use a prong collar? ... What about Mark Singer (sp?). I've read a few good things about him on the forums here. Still a few hour drive away from where I live but I'm sure I could make the trip if need be. Does anyone have any contact details for him?

I was going to suggest Mark, although I'm not sure I remember what his stance is on the PPCollar.

His phone number is 1300 255 364

[Red Fox]

Erny, can you suggest anyone in SA who could give me a bit of instruction on how to fit and use a prong collar? ... What about Mark Singer (sp?). I've read a few good things about him on the forums here. Still a few hour drive away from where I live but I'm sure I could make the trip if need be. Does anyone have any contact details for him?

I was going to suggest Mark, although I'm not sure I remember what his stance is on the PPCollar.

His phone number is 1300 255 364

Thanks Erny. I think I might give him a call in a couple of weeks (when school goes back and all is calm again) and have a chat with him.

[Cosmolo]

Agree with what the others have said. I find it very very sad that people get asked to leave training because their dogs are being difficult- thats why they are there!!

[Kharn]

I completely appreciate how embarrassed and stressed you are, one of mine was (from about 8 months) and still is (though much better now she is 2) so much like you described. I too was humiliated more then once at dog training and walked away never to return (when she was less then 1 year old). The last straw at training for me was being yelled at and told to "Tell that dogs who's boss and get in line!" Now, I have to say I'm no softie when it comes to my dogs, but I was trying to close my dogs critical distance slowly not get in a position where I spent the entire time with a lunging, whining, barking dog who couldn't have cared less what I was saying. And then people saying "Oh no Fluffy, don't go near that nasty dog."

I walked away very disheartened and it has taken some very good help and support to get my confidence back. I still stress when walking my dog that I will be completely inept and embarrassed if I come across another dog. Which in a way is ridiculous, as I work with dogs almost every week who are worse then mine at the pound and handle it ok!

Talk to a trainer and get some one on one time, you will benefit in so many ways, but especially your confidence.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Kharn

[Diablo]

Thanks Nekhbet, I will start using the check chain on all walks and see how we go. To be fair, Kei does walk well on leash 99% of the time. It is only when we encounter other dogs in close range that we have dramas.

Erny, can you suggest anyone in SA who could give me a bit of instuction on how to fit and use a prong collar?

To be honest I would love to try one with Kei. I think I would feel more comfortable with using prong as opposed to the chain if I could have some proper instruction. I did ask about them at obedience earlier this year and was told that they are 'cruel' and 'illegal' and i was NEVER to use one on my dog. Of course I do not agree with that at all but could not see the point in pushing the argument further in that situation.

I know Steve (K9 Force) sells prongs but he is obviously a long way away from me. What about Mark Singer (sp?). I've read a few good things about him on the forums here. Still a few hour drive away from where I live but I'm sure I could make the trip if need be. Does anyone have any contact details for him?

I personally wouldn't bother with Mark Singer............PM me I can explain why!!!.

I would seriously recommend to join the Adelaide Sportdog Club and train in Schutzhund obediance which is open to any breed and most importantly, the trainers are great, specialise in large difficult to handle breeds and they couldn't care less how disobediant and disruptive your dog may be as their mission is to train anything at your own pace. It's one of very few clubs where they welcome poor behaviour and appreciate your membership and cannot be more helpful, real dedicated dog training people. There are GSD's, Malanios, Rotties, Dobes, Labs, Amstaffs etc training in obediance.

Schutzhund obediance is "extreme" obediance that can take the dog from being uncotrollable on leash to complete off leash reliability, far exceeds that of any average obediance training and it's good fun too.

http://www.adelaidesportdogclub.com/

Edited October 3, 2009 by Diablo