kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 following on from my previous thread on loose lead walking, i thought i would ask for some tips to help molly with her distractions. I want to be THE MOST irresistable, exciting, tempting, wonderful, amazing thing in Molly's life. I want her to WANT to come to me, no matter how many dogs are running around her, how many people are calling her, and what else is going on around her. Molly is not treat, toy or pat oriented, and training in distracting areas is difficult at best. I haven't figured out what her drive is, and i'm all open to suggestions to make myself the most important thing in her universe. Our puppy trainer suggested withholding all food unless she is near/next to me, and feed her dinner a bit at a time only whilst she is giving me attention. She will happily come to us inside the house, but not out the back, because the puppy next door, or other people talking etc distract her. Thanks in advance for any suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundoglover Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 How old is she? Gundogs often need a couple of years to mature and can be very distractable when puppies. After all, a gundog who is totally focussed on its handler would have been no use in the field, particularly in the kennels where they were developed and often loaned out as flushing or pick-up dogs to visiting shooters. So, they were selected over many generations to care less about the handler and more about what is happening around them, ie, birds, rabbits, etc. They also need time for their brains to mature. I've got obedience titles with young gundogs, but it is easier if you wait until they are two years or older before you expect them to focus consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) she's getting close to 7 months old now - didn't realise how late in the year it was!!!! I don't necessarily want CONSTANT attention, but more when i ask for it - i would like to be able to command more attention than other animals, dogs etc Edited September 30, 2009 by kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) Does she show interest in food or toys at all? Daisy has a high food drive but she has a higher scent drive. Despite her obsession with food I could shove food under nose when she was scenting and she wouldn't notice it. To over come this we've done a lot of work on developing her food drive, it is a gradual process but she is going really well training with distractions lately. We had her at the local farmers markets on the weekend and it was packed full of people, kids, other dogs - loads of distractions - and she was focusing on me and working really well. It's definitely possible, you just need to know how to do it. Are you still going to go and see Jane? This is the sort of thing she can help you with. Edited September 30, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 hey huski - yeah we definately are going to see Jane - might not be for a month though - we just bought a house, so we're still crazy busy and a little bit tight on cash at the moment, but i want to set the ball rolling and at least work on it if i can. at puppy school, i would literally have to push the food in her mouth, and she would just hold it in there, and she would spit it out. she loves treats when we're inside, but as soon as you add one single distraction, she just completely zones out to anything else. I just cant figure out what her drive is. I'm not sure what else there is other than treats, toys & pats (oh and verbal affirmation ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) Try making a list of the things that distract Molly and start ranking them. That's a good way to figure out what drives her. How about things that are moving? Is she interested in a toy if it's "running away" from her? How about freaking awesome food, like fresh cooked liver, or roast meat? If she loves to explore, why not use a fast-paced, frenetic exploring session with her as a reward? My mum has a dog that will happily explore on his own, but man does he love doing it with a friend. Preferably at a run. You could put her on a long line and just go with her wherever she wants to go. Pretend to be super interested in whatever she's interested in. Sniff the ground and imagine what it's like to be Molly. Simulate flushing by tossing out a toy when she's least expecting it, then run after it with her? Hey, you could set up an exciting exploring session where you go out before and place rewards around about, and then you get to discover them together and make a big fuss. ETA, if she's easily distracted, try really mixing up the rewards so she never knows what she's going to get. Might make it more interesting to her. Edited September 30, 2009 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundoglover Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Well, 7 months is pretty young for a gundog. I'd keep the training sessions very short - 10 mins only and finish with a short game of "fetch", but make sure it is a game, not more training. Most gundogs are motivated to play fetch. Mine will do almost anything for a game of fetch and bring me a vast assortment of items (sticks, rope, balls whatever they can find) to tempt me into a game of fetch with them. I've made a habit of saying thankyou and placing the item either in my pocket or in sight but out of reach and requesting a response to an obedience command (whatever we are working on currently), but just one response, then we play the fetching game. This keeps learning fun. When they get older, I ask for more before the fetch game. When they don't spontaneously offer a fetching object & I want to do a 10 min training session, I'll go & get a dummy and let them see it, then do the training session & finish with fetch the dummy. If she is motivated to play fetch, then teaching a recall can be an extension of the fetching game: throw the fetch object a short way, let her race out to it, pick it up and then squat down, calling come! in a happy voice, lots of praise when she comes & reward with another fetch. Alternatively, if she tends to pick up the object and run away, teach come by showing her a favoured fetching object & saying come! When she comes to you, good girl & immediately throw the fetching object. If she doesn't bring it back, turn & walk away. Over time, she'll learn that she has to come to get another fetch. If she doesn't want to play fetch, then maybe some cocker spaniel breed experts have some ideas for rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) hey huski - yeah we definately are going to see Jane - might not be for a month though - we just bought a house, so we're still crazy busy and a little bit tight on cash at the moment, but i want to set the ball rolling and at least work on it if i can. No worries - when you do, she will definitely be able to help you find what motivates your pup the most and how to develop. at puppy school, i would literally have to push the food in her mouth, and she would just hold it in there, and she would spit it out. she loves treats when we're inside, but as soon as you add one single distraction, she just completely zones out to anything else. I just cant figure out what her drive is. I'm not sure what else there is other than treats, toys & pats (oh and verbal affirmation ) What kind of treats do you use? She could have a decent food drive but you probably just need to develop it - training her around distractions can lower her drive. I would look for what switches her 'on' in low distraction environments. ETA: TBH at this age, considering how easily distracted she is, I would keep training sessions even shorter than 10 minutes. I often keep Daisy's training sessions to five minutes and under. I always leave her wanting more, as it will build her frustration and desire for the reward. Edited September 30, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) thanks for all the great advice guys. She gets 2-3 short 5 minutes sessions a day, and i always finish with a game of fetch or tug, or something similar. Huski - we've tried every food i can think of. kibble, liver treats, devon, bacon, raw steak, roast chicken, yoghurt drops, cheese etc. I have tried both low and high drive food, and every one gets met with literally ZERO response when there are distractions around. Molly's distractions are pretty much only other dogs and people, oh and walks. eta - just to clarify - by fetch - it's never a proper game of fetch. She will bring the ball back maybe 60% of the time Edited September 30, 2009 by kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) It's pretty normal to find it hard to get her interested when distractions are around - what is she like when you are in a low distraction environment at home? What is she like if you give her something really really high value like steak? Edited September 30, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 really high value treat like steak + minimal distraction (eg. someone standing like 10m away) - ZERO interest. like literally nothing. At puppy training she would literally stand on the full length of the leading, looking away for me for up to 20-30 minutes sometimes, regardless of what treats i had, and how many different ways i tried to break her interest in the distraction. Thanks guys - i love that i can get feedback and ideas from DOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundoglover Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Since she likes fetch, I'd try putting the fetch object in my pocket and showing it to her (waving around, if necessary) in a high distraction environment, do one quick fetch on the lead & then continue, when she looks away, do the same thing. But only for a few minutes, then give her the release command (while still on lead), so she can look around at the interesting things. And, please remember, she is very young and needs time to mature. Huski's advice on observing her & seeing what is naturally rewarding for her, is also very sound, with some good ideas on what to look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 really high value treat like steak + minimal distraction (eg. someone standing like 10m away) - ZERO interest. like literally nothing. At puppy training she would literally stand on the full length of the leading, looking away for me for up to 20-30 minutes sometimes, regardless of what treats i had, and how many different ways i tried to break her interest in the distraction. What is she like with no distractions (i.e. at home)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 will happily work for food, toys, pats, verbal affirmation - anything! she's most attentive at home. (except if she's in the backyard and the puppy next door is out in its backyard too) i just can't explain it - the second there is any distraction her brain literally switches off, and she just becomes completely tunnel visioned on the distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) will happily work for food, toys, pats, verbal affirmation - anything! she's most attentive at home. (except if she's in the backyard and the puppy next door is out in its backyard too) That's great - it means she has the potential there to work with. What does she get most excited about at home? Food, toys, chasing toys or playing tug? i just can't explain it - the second there is any distraction her brain literally switches off, and she just becomes completely tunnel visioned on the distraction. I know exactly what you mean Don't worry - it's normal! Edited September 30, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 thanks Huski - i find it hard to explain. It's literally like she just completely zones out when there is a distraction. To be fair to her though, people and other dogs are pretty decent distraction to have as a puppy! When she is at home just with me, she has fairly equal drive for all of the things. I just had a thought - what about clicker training 'watch' or something similar? whenever she looks at me, C&T and then work distractions into that? Maybe it's my lack of confidence that she WONT focus on me thats contributing as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 thanks Huski - i find it hard to explain. It's literally like she just completely zones out when there is a distraction. To be fair to her though, people and other dogs are pretty decent distraction to have as a puppy! With Daisy being a scent hound I totally know what you mean by the zoning out thing, it's the way their brain switches gears and all they can think about is what they are focusing on. It is really a gradual thing, I introduce distractions slowly and only when the dog is working well in the current environment. What do you do when she zones in on distractions? When she is at home just with me, she has fairly equal drive for all of the things.I just had a thought - what about clicker training 'watch' or something similar? whenever she looks at me, C&T and then work distractions into that? Maybe it's my lack of confidence that she WONT focus on me thats contributing as well? Clicker training can be useful (I use vocal markers myself) but you still need to build her focus gradually, as well as her desire for the reward (there's not point using the clicker if she has no desire for the treat!). Do you practice anything like the Triangle of Temptation or NILIF (nothing in life is free) with her at home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 we use NILIF as much as possible. Before food, before patting, being allowed on the couch etc. When she has zoned in, even if i touch her on the flank to try and change her focus, she is still fixated on what it is. If it's next doors dog i will get some focus every now and then (like she's looking at me wanting me to go play with her) and i try and reward any focus on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) we use NILIF as much as possible. Before food, before patting, being allowed on the couch etc. When she has zoned in, even if i touch her on the flank to try and change her focus, she is still fixated on what it is. If it's next doors dog i will get some focus every now and then (like she's looking at me wanting me to go play with her) and i try and reward any focus on me. Have you tried walking her away from the distraction, to break the fixation and trying to get her focus on you then? 'Fighting' with her for her focus when she's so fixated is setting you both up to lose, not to win. Edited September 30, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 yeah huski - sometimes she'll just get vocal and chuck a mini tanty. but maybe i don't take her further enough away.... (which is easy enough to do outside in my own backyard!) very good point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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