Desexing And Growth

[Rebanne]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

[jacqui835]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

[SwaY]

I have 2 male puppies from the same litter who have both been desexed - Great Danes

Tiny - de-sexed at 4.5 months (not something I recommend) Normal height/weight etc for the breed and his litter mates.

Stix - de-sexed at 10 months He was far to tall, 90cm at the shoulders by 9 months of age.

The tallest by far for that litter, over 15cm taller then the rest of the litter and his parents.

I saw him 6 weeks ago and he has grown more! I would say around 95cm now.

He has that leggy look that many early de-sexed dogs get, however he does have a nicely filled out body.

ETA puppies are now 17 months old

Edited April 26, 2011 by SwaY

[JulesP]

I had Brock de-sexed at about 4 months. Breeders etc have to ask if he is entire or de-sexed so I assume that it didn't effect his growth greatly.

[koalathebear]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

jacqui835: I understand that you feel strongly about this and that you are convinced that you are right and that it's clear no one is going to be able to convince you that cropping is anything but in the dog's benefit but when you say things like this:

Well, we call it the ear but they don't remove the actual ear or anything that valuable... they remove some of the tissue that should be helping to increase the effectiveness of the ear (the ear and all it's components are within the dog's head), but which instead in floppy eared dogs is actually reducing ear function and creating an environment more conducive to bacteria growth

It's hard to take the above argument seriously because that makes it sound like it's fine to chop of the dog's entire ear and leave leave the hole behind because that's all that matters

Also, I can't stress how much I disagree with your assertion that floppy ears are somehow dangerous or detrimental to a dog's health and have been introduced by humans because they are 'cute'. Although the 'standard for working line Kelpies states 'prick ears', there are many very good working dogs with floppy ears who are very valued by their handlers, who do not suffer from ear-related health problems and perform their functions perfectly - you can't really have a good herding Kelpie whose hearing isn't good. Nature wanted my Kelpie's ears to Rise and that they did, with no need for surgical intervention. Nature decided my other dog would go floppy eared and his hearing (like many other floppy eared working dogs) is fine ... You cannot possibly say that Australian farmers were breeding for 'cuteness' when they ended up with floppy-eared Kelpies - working line Kelpies are bred with pure functionality in mind and appearance is entirely irrelevant. If you mentioned breeding 'cute' into the mix, I'm sure the Kelpie breeders would be horrified...

I think if you just said that if you said you wanted to crop a dog's ears for cosmetic reasons because you think it looks better, many people might not agree with you but probably wouldn't argue with you as long as the cropping was done by a qualified vet, in a jurisdiction where cropping is legal and the dog's health is not impaired ... It's where you try to shift the responsibility for the decision from you to the dog i.e. it's for the dog's welfare that it comes across as something of a tenuous argument...

[jacqui835]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

jacqui835: I understand that you feel strongly about this and that you are convinced that you are right and that it's clear no one is going to be able to convince you that cropping is anything but in the dog's benefit but when you say things like this:

Well, we call it the ear but they don't remove the actual ear or anything that valuable... they remove some of the tissue that should be helping to increase the effectiveness of the ear (the ear and all it's components are within the dog's head), but which instead in floppy eared dogs is actually reducing ear function and creating an environment more conducive to bacteria growth

It's hard to take the above argument seriously because that makes it sound like it's fine to chop of the dog's entire ear and leave leave the hole behind because that's all that matters

Also, I can't stress how much I disagree with your assertion that floppy ears are somehow dangerous or detrimental to a dog's health and have been introduced by humans because they are 'cute'. Although the 'standard for working line Kelpies states 'prick ears', there are many very good working dogs with floppy ears who are very valued by their handlers, who do not suffer from ear-related health problems and perform their functions perfectly - you can't really have a good herding Kelpie whose hearing isn't good. Nature wanted my Kelpie's ears to Rise and that they did, with no need for surgical intervention. Nature decided my other dog would go floppy eared and his hearing (like many other floppy eared working dogs) is fine ... You cannot possibly say that Australian farmers were breeding for 'cuteness' when they ended up with floppy-eared Kelpies - working line Kelpies are bred with pure functionality in mind and appearance is entirely irrelevant. If you mentioned breeding 'cute' into the mix, I'm sure the Kelpie breeders would be horrified...

I think if you just said that if you said you wanted to crop a dog's ears for cosmetic reasons because you think it looks better, many people might not agree with you but probably wouldn't argue with you as long as the cropping was done by a qualified vet, in a jurisdiction where cropping is legal and the dog's health is not impaired ... It's where you try to shift the responsibility for the decision from you to the dog i.e. it's for the dog's welfare that it comes across as something of a tenuous argument...

The dogs were selectively bred for floppy ears long before they were bred to herd sheep - in fact before we even had any sheep. They looked less threatening and hence it was easier to keep an animal once considered a threat near the family.

Kelpies were developed more recently and supposedly have dingo in them, which would account for their upright ears.

I'm not trying to say that I think dogs need to have erect ears to be able to lead happy lives or that they can't hear at all. But I believe their life is enhanced by having proper ears that firstly do provide superior hearing abilities and additionally, don't whack against their ears their whole lives. Lord knows I'd hate have something covering my ears or flapping against them.

Anyway, through this I have realised that cropping is not the answer, it's unlikely to ever be acceptable again in mainstream society. So one day, if I'm ever wealthy enough, I will attempt to create a doberman with naturally erect ears - the way Dobermann originally intended.

[Gayle.]

I had Brock de-sexed at about 4 months. Breeders etc have to ask if he is entire or de-sexed so I assume that it didn't effect his growth greatly.

Same with Benson. I generally take him to the speciality shows, just for the day out, and I've had more than one breeder gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed, as he's from old American working lines which are highly prized here.

[Rebanne]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

wow how rude you are.

[Staranais]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

I haven't seen any scientific studies that show that (all other things being equal) dogs with flop ears tend to suffer from more ear infections than cropped or naturally prick ears. Can you post a link?

[jacqui835]

personally I had more trouble with ear complaints with my GSD's then I have had with my greyhounds

Indeed. To be significant however, we're going to need a sample size greater than one person's experiences...

It kind of similar to what cigarette companies do, in that they claim that because they know of someone who smoked and didn't die from it, cigarettes can't possibly be bad for you. Yay for scientific method to help us see the forest from the trees.

I haven't seen any scientific studies that show that (all other things being equal) dogs with flop ears tend to suffer from more ear infections than cropped or naturally prick ears. Can you post a link?

Well it would seem obvious no? Consider what bacteria, yeast and fungi require for optimal development - that would be a moist, dark, warm environment. Look at a german shepherd/kelpie/cattle dog and then look at a beagle/spaniel/labrador, and you tell me who is providing the better conditions for infection causing organisms...

"Otitis externa is an inflammation of the outer ear and ear canal. Animals are commonly prone to ear infection, and this is one of the most common manifestations of allergy in dogs. In dogs, those breeds with floppy ears are more prone, since air flow is limited and a warm, moist environment built up, which is conducive to infection."

"The first was the advent of pets with floppy ears. Floppy ears trap moisture and air within the ear canal and make it an ideal place for bacteria and yeast to grow. This results in infection and inflammation as bacteria and yeast proliferate . Cocker Spaniels, Setters, Basset hounds, Beagles and, Shar Peis commonly have this problem, but any breed or mutt with floppy ears is more susceptible than a pet with ears that stand erect."

"Ear shape. Pets with floppy ears are more prone to ear infections because the air does not dry the ears naturally, as it does for pets with erect ears."

"A dog with floppy ears is more prone to developing ear infections and unfortunately, many dog owners with breeds like Cocker Spaniels, Beagles and Basset Hounds find that their dogs suffer from chronic ear infections.

"The key to treating and curing chronic ear infections in dogs long ears is to understand why these frequent infections occur.

Why Are Dogs With Floppy Ears More Prone to Chronic Ear Infections?

A dog with floppy ears is more apt to develop frequent and chronic ear infections due to the warm, dark, moist environment that's created inside the ear canal."

"Dog breeds with large, floppy ears are more prone to ear infections. This is because the large ears tend to trap moisture within the ear due to poor air circulation. This leads to the growth of microorganisms in the ear leading to infections. Also, the dog ear mites get an opportunity to hide and grow within the ear. The hair growth in the ears also block the air circulation. These factors along with improper pet care lead to ear infection in dogs.

You can prevent ear infections in dogs by taking some good home care. You need to clean the dog ears, especially ones with large floppy ears, regularly to prevent development of infections."

It's not really disputed...

[Staranais]

Not obvious to me - I've seen plenty of ear infections in prick ears, and plenty in folded ears too. Some breeds are definitely more prone to ear issues than others, but I've never seen anything showing that a moderately sized folded ear (like your dobe) is more likely than a prick/cropped ear to develop ear infections, all other things being equal.

I was (genuinely) hoping you'd seen a study or something, since you told Rebanne you were following the scientific method.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Staranais

[jacqui835]

Not obvious to me - I've seen plenty of ear infections in prick ears, and plenty in folded ears too. Some breeds are definitely more prone to ear issues than others, but I've never seen anything showing that a small folded ear (like your dobe) is more likely than a prick/cropped ear to develop ear infections, all other things being equal.

I was hoping you'd seen a study or something, since you told Rebanne you were following the scientific method.

Well you're right there, but I suppose it would be difficult to do a scientific study because it's almost impossible to isolate all of the factors. It's not like we could have 10 beagles with floppy ears to compare to 10 beagles with erect. We can only compare the few people who own erect eared dogs who bother to take their pets to the vet when they have ear infections to the masses who own floppy eared dogs who bother to take their pets to the vet when they have ear infections. There are many more floppy eared dog breeds than erect, and more importantly, the floppy eared breeds typically comprise all of the most registered dogs, except for GSD's.

I suppose the fact that it's a common ailment for many floppy eared breeds compared to not being mentioned on the common conditions for erect eared breeds seemed relatively indicative of a correlation.

But you're right - essentially no-one to date that I know of has done a study that conclusively proves floppy ears cause ear infections, they have merely identified correlations. What's important to me however is not that they've identified a correlation, but that they've developed a hypothesis to explain why dogs with floppy ears would experience more ear infections which can be tested under other circumstances - for example, you have something out in the sun and the wind, it won't grow nearly as much bacteria as something in the dark and that can stay moist due to an absence of wind.

[Staranais]

I'd be happy even seeing a study showing a good correlation between moderately sized flop ears & ear infections.

I'm not talking extra long droopy basset hound/bloodhound ears, just to be clear, just regular medium sized folded ears like an uncropped dobe would have.

Incidentally, if one could show a strong correlation between dobes with natural ears and painful or chronic ear conditions, I suppose that would be some support for the legalisation of ear cropping.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Staranais

[cavNrott]

At the risk of getting this thread back on topic, may I return to the original discussion which was desexing and growth. How did it come to be about ear cropping and cattle.

I foolishly had my Rottweiler bitch desexed at 6 months of age. This is something I would never do again with any large breed. I would wait until the dog was 2yo and the growth plates were closed.

All the negatives of early desexing applied to my girl. She was long in the leg, she had TPLO surgery on both knees for partially ruptured cruciates. She was diagnosed with oral osteosarcoma at the age of 6 which took her from me at age 7. She was puppyish in attitude all her life, though well behaved and always obedient. She was a very feminine looking girl and very pretty. I wonder had I had waited until she was older before I had desexed if things might have been different.

Now to get back to off topic. She had incredibly soft velvety ears and acute hearing. I challenge anyone who would suggest her hearing was compromised because she didn't have pricked ears. This girl could hear a potato crisp drop on carpet.

If ear cropping was legal here I would not do it to my dogs. Not only do I not like the idea of the procedure, I don't like the look of cropped ears on any breed of dog. Pricked eared dogs look as they should. Cropped ears changes the whole appearance of a dog with naturally floppy ears and to me they no longer have the natural beauty of their breed.

I think Danes, Boxers and Dobes are beautiful looking dogs in their natural state but not when their ears are cropped. Their whole facial expression is different and in my opinion their natural beauty is lost. In fact I don't think any breed looks any the better for having cropped ears.

[aussielover]

I have also seen plenty of ear infections in prick eared dogs and folded ear dogs.

My Aussie had floppy ears which I never cleaned and she never had any infections or ear problems in 13 years.

I do not clean my labs ears either (I don't believe in putting liquids down a healthy dog's ear for the purpose of preventative cleaning) and so far she has not had any ear problems, despite having quite bad skin allergies.

Floppy ears can help prevent the entry of foreign bodies and other nasties entering.

A number of vets I have talked to have thought that ear problems have more to do with the actual shape of the ear canal rather than the shape of the pinnae.

I am not sure if there are any scientific studies on the shape of ears and hearing ability, but what would it matter in a pet dog? If you were doing search and rescue etc then maybe you could look into it more....

As for early desexing-

I agree that it may delay closure of the growth plates and the lack of some hormones may cause decreased muscular development. There are a number of papers which support this.

[Gayle.]

My early desexed girl (around 8 weeks, I believe) is tiny......far and away the smallest of my tribe. She also has a very pretty, puppyish face (she is 5 years old, came to me as a rescue) which I thought may be due to the early desexing, but that idea was knocked firmly on the head on the weekend when a breeder who knows her background took one look at her and said "Oh my god, she looks exactly like her mother!"

It was also agreed that she grew just fine in spite of being desexed as a baby.

[mumtoshelley]

I got my Shelley spayed at 5 months old. I would call her lanky or tall. She is 22inches to the withers so is in the breed standard. My mums golden Buddy was desexed at 2 years old and his head is small, his is a bit smaller then my Shelley in height but makes up for it in bulk. Shelley has a larger head then Buddy. I think it has alot to do with there genes not the time there desexed. A dog will only grow as big as it's genes will allow them too.

Oh and about the floppy ears and ear infections thats a load of bull my Shelley is always puting her whole head and body under water when i take her swimming and she hasn't had a single ear infection and she is 3 years old. I clean Shelleys ears once a week. I know with golden retrievers they can totally close there ear canal shut when swimming I'm not sure if dogs with erect ears can do the same as i never had a dog with erect ears. I've seen alot of dogs have skin problems too,I don't think it has anything to do with the breed every dog is different some have more problems then others.

Edited April 26, 2011 by mumtoshelley

[aussielover]

Genes can be influenced by environment to some degree, so in saying that a dog will only grow as big as its genes is not strictly accurate.

No one here is saying EVERY early desexed dog will become tall and lanky but there is evidence to support that early desexing may delay closure of the growth plates. And early removal of testosterone (ie while a dog is still growing) may affect muscle development and growth.

Since everyone is talking about their individual dogs-

I had my aussie girl desexed at 6 months, she grew to be fairly typical of the breed, if anything she was slightly stockier/heavier than a typical aussie.

Mindy was desexed at 5 months and is quite lanky and lean and delicate in body type compared to most labs. Her mother is much stockier than she is and so is her father.

So it would appear that based on my sample size of 2 lol, that 50% of dogs are not affected by early desexing and 50% become more leggy and lanky.

[Baileys mum]

My 13yo Aussie terrier x JRT has pricked ears & we have had nothing but trouble with her getting recurring yeast infections for the last 6 years.

The vet would prescribe her with Dermotic drops to treat them & she would be alright for a while & then she would get it back again.

The vet recently recommended that she have surgery for complete ear canal removal as she has now developed polyps in her ears...but after taking her to the Werribee vet hospital for a second opinion as we are not too happy with her having such a big surgery at her age, & she has also been diagnosed with a low grade heart murmur, they are now managing her condition with different medication & we can hold of surgery for now..as she seems to really responding to this medication well.

She has also copped 4 grass seeds inside her ears in her life...so I don't understand the argument that dogs with floppy ears have more problems...Jessie is proof that dogs with pricked ears can have their problems too.