Desexing And Growth

[Karelea Aussies]

Forget about the head and the " puppy" look, he lacks breed type, to the point where it's difficult to tell what breed he actually is.

Another that obviously doesn't know the breed.

Different yes due to his working lines, but no mistaking that he is an Aussie and a male at that. :D

[jacqui835]

Dobes looks so much better with their ears cropped, IMO.

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe

As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended.

For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state.

You say you like your dogs to be as nature intended but you want a dobermann with cropped ears? Dogs born with floppy ears should keep floppy ears. Born with tail should keep the tail thats the way nature intended after all . As for desexing i cant really say, but i have found this thread very interesting to read

Re the bolded section. There is no such thing as a 'natural' dog with floppy ears - they were selectively bred for the same way we've created heaps of variants, and it is my opinion that this was done to the detriment of the dog - as it results in poorer hearing and an increased incidence of ear problems/infections. As such, I would elect to have my dog restored to a 'natural' state to undo the damage done by human interference. I would not touch his tail, and that was actually one of my selection criteria when choosing a breeder (at the time, many dobe breeders were sending their dogs overseas or interstate to have the procedure). I didn't think it's cruel, but unnecessary and was unlikely to help my dog given the nature of the life I intended for him to lead (ie he's not going down any rabbit holes, and he's not going to be used in dog fighting/people attacking - which is my understanding of why dogs were initially docked).

I don't believe desexing would enhance the life of my dog and hence for me it would be an unnecessary surgical procedure, which would in turn have the side effects of exposing him to several new potential problems such as increased chance of obesity and bone cancers. I still advocate desexing to the masses because there are too many dogs, and overpopulation is one thing desexing can treat.

But there is no denying that it will change the growth patterns and end product - people who can train and contain their dogs just need to decide what sort of dog is best for them.

[Dogsrawesome]

Dobes looks so much better with their ears cropped, IMO.

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe

As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended.

For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state.

You say you like your dogs to be as nature intended but you want a dobermann with cropped ears? Dogs born with floppy ears should keep floppy ears. Born with tail should keep the tail thats the way nature intended after all . As for desexing i cant really say, but i have found this thread very interesting to read

Re the bolded section. There is no such thing as a 'natural' dog with floppy ears - they were selectively bred for the same way we've created heaps of variants, and it is my opinion that this was done to the detriment of the dog - as it results in poorer hearing and an increased incidence of ear problems/infections. As such, I would elect to have my dog restored to a 'natural' state to undo the damage done by human interference. I would not touch his tail, and that was actually one of my selection criteria when choosing a breeder (at the time, many dobe breeders were sending their dogs overseas or interstate to have the procedure). I didn't think it's cruel, but unnecessary and was unlikely to help my dog given the nature of the life I intended for him to lead (ie he's not going down any rabbit holes, and he's not going to be used in dog fighting/people attacking - which is my understanding of why dogs were initially docked).

I don't believe desexing would enhance the life of my dog and hence for me it would be an unnecessary surgical procedure, which would in turn have the side effects of exposing him to several new potential problems such as increased chance of obesity and bone cancers. I still advocate desexing to the masses because there are too many dogs, and overpopulation is one thing desexing can treat.

But there is no denying that it will change the growth patterns and end product - people who can train and contain their dogs just need to decide what sort of dog is best for them.

I just think its unnatural thats my opinion if they are born with floppy ears i dont see how its unnatural. But thats how you see it so i guess everyone is different.

[BC Crazy]

Butterfly girl,

I desexed my Border Collie at 6 months of age, he is now almost 3 & has matured to be a very handsome boy in deed. He he a big lad though,& I do think it changes their body shape slightly. Without trying to highjack your thread, was wondering other DOL's thoughts on what is a good age to desex a female BC as my girl is almost 6 months of age & was purchased on limited register so must be desexed & was going to get her done next week. She is quite mature body wise for her age, she is coming along beautifully but I certainly don't want her to come into season. Think I am doing the right thing at the right time? Any advice greatly appreciated.

[poodlefan]

I don't believe desexing would enhance the life of my dog and hence for me it would be an unnecessary surgical procedure, which would in turn have the side effects of exposing him to several new potential problems such as increased chance of obesity and bone cancers.just need to decide what sort of dog is best for them.

And ear cropping isn't an "unnecessary surgical procedure"?

It serves one purpose only in the Dobermann - cosmetic alteration for the owner's preference.

Yeesh. You're not changing the shape of the ear - you're removing ear and forcing it to grow into a different position. Where's the "benefit" for the dog?

[Dogsrawesome]

I don't believe desexing would enhance the life of my dog and hence for me it would be an unnecessary surgical procedure, which would in turn have the side effects of exposing him to several new potential problems such as increased chance of obesity and bone cancers.just need to decide what sort of dog is best for them.

And ear cropping isn't an "unnecessary surgical procedure"?

It serves one purpose only in the Dobermann - cosmetic alteration for the owner's preference.

Yeesh. You're not changing the shape of the ear - you're removing ear and forcing it to grow into a different position. Where's the "benefit" for the dog?

x2 thats what i was trying to say you always word things great

[Alyosha]

slightly off topic but i love brahmans

Me too!!

[Dogsrawesome]

slightly off topic but i love brahmans

Me too!!

I fell inlove with a bull at the ekka last year because we showed a heifer for this man and the bull was across from her and he was the sweetest bull and perfect looking to me he had the big broad head , the boy that showed him told be to be wary as he head butts i said umm well he hasnt head butted me yet im pretty sure he only loved me cause i kept sneaking him little bits of hay

[jacqui835]

I don't believe desexing would enhance the life of my dog and hence for me it would be an unnecessary surgical procedure, which would in turn have the side effects of exposing him to several new potential problems such as increased chance of obesity and bone cancers.just need to decide what sort of dog is best for them.

And ear cropping isn't an "unnecessary surgical procedure"?

It serves one purpose only in the Dobermann - cosmetic alteration for the owner's preference.

Yeesh. You're not changing the shape of the ear - you're removing ear and forcing it to grow into a different position. Where's the "benefit" for the dog?

Well, we call it the ear but they don't remove the actual ear or anything that valuable... they remove some of the tissue that should be helping to increase the effectiveness of the ear (the ear and all it's components are within the dog's head), but which instead in floppy eared dogs is actually reducing ear function and creating an environment more conducive to bacteria growth. In doing this, they enable the ear to be able to stand and hence improve hearing and ear condition.

Of course there are people who do it for cosmetic reasons, same as there are people who dock for work/practical reasons vs aesthetic but that's a different matter entirely.

[poodlefan]

Well, we call it the ear but they don't remove the actual ear or anything that valuable... they remove some of the tissue that should be helping to increase the effectiveness of the ear (the ear and all it's components are within the dog's head), but which instead in floppy eared dogs is actually reducing ear function and creating an environment more conducive to bacteria growth. In doing this, they enable the ear to be able to stand and hence improve hearing and ear condition.

Of course there are people who do it for cosmetic reasons, same as there are people who dock for work/practical reasons vs aesthetic but that's a different matter entirely.

You are kidding me.. have you actually seen ear cropping done? It's a major surgical procedure.

What the hell do you think they're cutting off... its ear flap. Stuff that protects against crud getting in the ear.

If you want a prick eared dog then buy one. Please don't pretend that by cutting off ear flap and taping ears up to change natural ear set the dog is benefitting in any way.

Cutting dogs ears off may protect livestock guardians against damage by predators but this is not why the Dobermann is cropped. Cropping is banned in quite a few European countries by the way.

[Alyosha]

I fell inlove with a bull at the ekka last year because we showed a heifer for this man and the bull was across from her and he was the sweetest bull and perfect looking to me he had the big broad head , the boy that showed him told be to be wary as he head butts i said umm well he hasnt head butted me yet im pretty sure he only loved me cause i kept sneaking him little bits of hay :D

again - sorry!! :D We met a spectacular brahman bullock at a recent ag show - he was a riding bullock an part of a show. Tied up peacefully eating his hay - my five year old daughetr was absolutely smitten!! I couldn't drag her away - she had to keep going back just to gaze into his eye and stroke his face again and again - he was enormous!!

Edited April 25, 2011 by Alyosha

[jacqui835]

slightly off topic but i love brahmans :D

Me too!!

I fell inlove with a bull at the ekka last year because we showed a heifer for this man and the bull was across from her and he was the sweetest bull and perfect looking to me he had the big broad head , the boy that showed him told be to be wary as he head butts i said umm well he hasnt head butted me yet im pretty sure he only loved me cause i kept sneaking him little bits of hay :D

And I don't expect you to take my word for it...

"Those with more natural ear shapes, like those of wild canids like the fox, generally hear better than those with the floppier ears of many domesticated species and in addition have a degree of ear mobility that helps them to rapidly pinpoint the exact location of a sound. Eighteen or more muscles can tilt, rotate and raise or lower a dog's ear."

"By the way, dogs with ears that stand up have the greatest hearing ability, better than breeds with long, floppy ears. The pointed ears are natural cups for bringing in the sound, and the tiny muscles that control them allow the dog to move his ears in several directions."

"Breeds with erect ears have better hearing than those with floppy ears due to their sound capturing ability."

"The shape of a dog's ears helps with hearing too. Just as we cup our hands around our ears so we can hear better, a dog's upright, curved ears help direct and amplify sound. Erect ears, like those of wild canids, hear better than the floppy ears of many domestic breeds."

For the doberman specifically:

"The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a "handle" for an attacker to hang on to. Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound "localization". An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop eared dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage."

I just feel that floppy ears are a trait we've selectively bred for because humans thought it was cute, and I feel that this was done to the detriment of the dogs.

[Dogsrawesome]

I fell inlove with a bull at the ekka last year because we showed a heifer for this man and the bull was across from her and he was the sweetest bull and perfect looking to me he had the big broad head :D, the boy that showed him told be to be wary as he head butts i said umm well he hasnt head butted me yet im pretty sure he only loved me cause i kept sneaking him little bits of hay ;)

again - sorry!! We met a spectacular brahman bullock at a recent ag show - he was a riding bullock an part of a show. Tied up peacefully eating his hay - my five year old daughetr was absolutely smitten!! I couldn't drag her away - she had to keep going back just to gaze into his eye and stroke his face again and again - he was enormous!!

Im just so sorry i am again lol

We often had little kids come up to our sahiwals and ask for pats of course our bulls were the sookiest on the planet and loved the attention. Some little kids were so frightened and i nelt down to there height and showed them it was okay :D. We could also sit on our bulls bums while they were laying down lol this Asian tourist was just amazed and she wanted to sit on him and get a photo lol i think i have seen that guy that rides the brahman although there could be more than one. I just loved going to shows all the interesting people you would meet i guess its the only thing about school i actually miss :D

[jacqui835]

Well, we call it the ear but they don't remove the actual ear or anything that valuable... they remove some of the tissue that should be helping to increase the effectiveness of the ear (the ear and all it's components are within the dog's head), but which instead in floppy eared dogs is actually reducing ear function and creating an environment more conducive to bacteria growth. In doing this, they enable the ear to be able to stand and hence improve hearing and ear condition.

Of course there are people who do it for cosmetic reasons, same as there are people who dock for work/practical reasons vs aesthetic but that's a different matter entirely.

You are kidding me.. have you actually seen ear cropping done? It's a major surgical procedure.

What the hell do you think they're cutting off... its ear flap. Stuff that protects against crud getting in the ear.

If you want a prick eared dog then buy one. Please don't pretend that by cutting off ear flap and taping ears up to change natural ear set the dog is benefitting in any way.

Cutting dogs ears off may protect livestock guardians against damage by predators but this is not why the Dobermann is cropped. Cropping is banned in quite a few European countries by the way.

Geez you can go watch it on youtube, you can even the recovery process. I would hardly call it major surgery, there are no internal incisions, no major bleeding etc.

Yes, they are cutting off ear 'flap'. Tissue that has a very limited blood supply, next to no nerves and basically consists entirely of loose skin and cartilage. You always appear to be fairly intelligent, and typically I like what you have to say and how you say it, so I can't understand now how you could possibly be seriously trying to claim that the removal of a little 'ear flap' constitutes a major surgical procedure...

[poodlefan]

Yes, they are cutting off ear 'flap'. Tissue that has a very limited blood supply, next to no nerves and basically consists entirely of loose skin and cartilage. You always appear to be fairly intelligent, and typically I like what you have to say and how you say it, so I can't understand now how you could possibly be seriously trying to claim that the removal of a little 'ear flap' constitutes a major surgical procedure...

Because it involves a general anaesthetic, IV fluids and post surgical pain control. That ain't a minor surgery in my book.

[Alyosha]

Ears are not bred for shapes other than pricked for purely cosmetic reasons. Scent hounds have dropped ears for very good reason. And as such dropped ears can be a very useful tool in searching dogs. Not all dogs search by sound...

And sorry - minor surgery? Cutting through sometimes thick layers of cartilage is not minor, numerous stitches plus wound packing and taping up for extended periods are not pleasant.

Warning - surgical picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaimiesun/1404557484/

And - to Dogsareawesome -

[Dogsrawesome]

Ears are not bred for shapes other than pricked for purely cosmetic reasons. Scent hounds have dropped ears for very good reason. And as such dropped ears can be a very useful tool in searching dogs. Not all dogs search by sound...

And sorry - minor surgery? Cutting through sometimes thick layers of cartilage is not minor, numerous stitches plus wound packing and taping up for extended periods are not pleasant.

Warning - surgical picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaimiesun/1404557484/

And - to Dogsareawesome -

Poor pooch how can anyone say thats okay it looks so painful

[jacqui835]

Ears are not bred for shapes other than pricked for purely cosmetic reasons. Scent hounds have dropped ears for very good reason. And as such dropped ears can be a very useful tool in searching dogs. Not all dogs search by sound...

And sorry - minor surgery? Cutting through sometimes thick layers of cartilage is not minor, numerous stitches plus wound packing and taping up for extended periods are not pleasant.

Warning - surgical picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaimiesun/1404557484/

And - to Dogsareawesome -

Poor pooch how can anyone say thats okay it looks so painful

Well obviously we will have to agree to disagree. I would never crop my dog's ears unless firstly it were legal, and secondly, I knew of a very experienced and competent vet who could do it for me. Those two conditions satisfied however and I would opt for the procedure. I have listed my reasons for it, which no-one seems to have commented on (although yes it's true the bloodhound they claim has massive ears to assist with it's nose - this is not the case with the doberman, or why/how dogs were first bred with floppy ears. That particular example is arguably a side-effect capitalised on 1000's of years later after the floppy ears started appearing.)

I have watched the procedure, and I've met dogs who've had it done and I felt very positively about it, the dogs certainly seemed happy enough. Guess we all react differently to stimulus, and that's what makes life so exciting - for me anyway.

[Alyosha]

Like everything Jacqui I think there are always arguments for and against. Most ear cropping is done nowadays for cosmetic reasons.

I do think that if flopped ears were such a detriment to breeds they should be selectively bred for erect ears. Traits can be bred in, andthey can be bred back out again.

But honestly, it can border on ridiculous when taken to extremes:

edit to add - not all breeds come from erect ear backgrounds. Most of the ancient sighthound breeds have dropped ears, have had for thousands of years and have had no erect ear ansestors idetified (salukis, afgans, taigans etc). Erect ears in howling deserts, whether sandy and hot or mountainous and frozen would be disasterous...

Edited April 25, 2011 by Alyosha

[jacqui835]

Like everything Jacqui I think there are always arguments for and against. Most ear cropping is done nowadays for cosmetic reasons.

I do think that if flopped ears were such a detriment to breeds they should be selectively bred for erect ears. Traits can be bred in, andthey can be bred back out again.

edit to add - not all breeds come from erect ear backgrounds. Most of the ancient sighthound breeds have dropped ears, have had for thousands of years and have had no erect ear ansestors idetified (salukis, afgans, taigans etc). Erect ears in howling deserts, whether sandy and hot or mountainous and frozen would be disasterous...

Well when the doberman was invented, Dobermann decided that he had the perfect dog and temperament and the ears could be achieved through cropping so it wasn't necessary. Can you imagine what would happen today if I said I wanted to start breeding dobermans with erect ears? If these forums are anything to go by, I don't think anyone would be interested in out crossing and I worry that it would be hard to include the best dobermans and get agreement on which breeds to introduce etc. If this is not the case let me know, and in all seriousness, I would be very interested in looking into how we could create a doberman with erect ears.

Most cropping today is done for cosmetic reasons. I never said it wasn't. I said that I would elect to crop my dog's ears for the reasons I've detailed.

There are wild members of the canine family who reside in deserts, and none have floppy ears - coyotes, fennec foxes. The only animals that have floppy ears are domesticated dogs - I am pretty sure all dogs originated from wolves, or potentially other members of the canine family but whom all possessed erect ears originally.