Desexing And Growth

[Odin-Genie]

ETA the difference is only noticable in males. No difference in females.

The opposite is true for my dogs. Both of mine got desexed at just under six months. My male elkhound is average height and quite muscular. I can't see much difference between him and other entire male elkhounds. My female goldie on the other hand is lean and lanky, much taller than her mum.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Odin-Genie

[LDR]

My MF boy was desexed at 18 weeks and has a very small head (he's very dainty though so it's not super noticeable). I'd not read anything about this theory until DOL and I tend to be inclined to believe that in our case it has affected growth.

[jacqui835]

Dobes looks so much better with their ears cropped, IMO.

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe

As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended.

For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state.

They do look better with the ear cropped. However, does that have any health benefit?

Also, when you say that dogs originally all had upright ears, which breed does that refer to? I believe Shih Tzu, Afghan Hounds, Tibetan Terriers are all ancient breeds that had floppy ears.

Well, dogs were derived from wolves. Wolves have upright ears.

As for health benefits, like the issue of desexing it depends on the source, but there are certainly documented cases of dogs having to have their ears cropped to treat recurring ear infections, and in my experience at least, the dogs I've owned with floppy ears have required more in the way of ear maintenance. Most people will agree that dogs with floppy ears will need to have them cleaned more often, but I guess they feel cropping the ears causes more inconvenience for the dog than the cleaning etc.

Also, dogs with upright ears have more acute hearing, and can pinpoint a sound to a greater degree than those with floppy ears. It's perhaps a subjective issue, but I know that if it was me, I would want upright ears, even if the benefits were minimal. Dogs can only think about one thing at a time, keep them distracted and they don't even notice the process...

[trifecta]

It is not only in dogs that castration of males at a young age produces leggier & less heavy, individuals...... one only has to think of geldings, wethers, steers.

[Odin-Genie]

Dobes looks so much better with their ears cropped, IMO.

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe

As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended.

For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state.

They do look better with the ear cropped. However, does that have any health benefit?

Also, when you say that dogs originally all had upright ears, which breed does that refer to? I believe Shih Tzu, Afghan Hounds, Tibetan Terriers are all ancient breeds that had floppy ears.

Well, dogs were derived from wolves. Wolves have upright ears.

As for health benefits, like the issue of desexing it depends on the source, but there are certainly documented cases of dogs having to have their ears cropped to treat recurring ear infections, and in my experience at least, the dogs I've owned with floppy ears have required more in the way of ear maintenance. Most people will agree that dogs with floppy ears will need to have them cleaned more often, but I guess they feel cropping the ears causes more inconvenience for the dog than the cleaning etc.

Also, dogs with upright ears have more acute hearing, and can pinpoint a sound to a greater degree than those with floppy ears. It's perhaps a subjective issue, but I know that if it was me, I would want upright ears, even if the benefits were minimal. Dogs can only think about one thing at a time, keep them distracted and they don't even notice the process...

Dogs may have evolved from wolves, but that was more than 10,000 years ago. I don't think anyone at that time would have selectively bred for floppy ears. Both Nature and National Geographic magazines suggest it was an unanticipated result of the domestication of dogs which was caused by selecting the tamer wolves. So this happened naturally/unintentionally.

Also, if cropped ears are not purely cosmetic but have health/cognition benefits, why is it done on few selected breeds? Why don't we crop a Golden Retriever's ears, or an Afghan Hound's?

At the moment I don't have an opinion about the morality of cropping. But before I form an opinion, I would like to know why it is done.

[nixy]

I decided to get my Great Dane male desexed at 4 months mainly due to the fact that he started humping (not that he knew what he was doing) and if he tried to hump one of my girl dogs, he would have had the biggest barny lol. He is now almost 10 months old 33" at his shoulders and is over 50kgs. He is slim and lanky and has a slender head. He is the biggest gentle giant and such a couch potato! hehe

[fuzzy82]

Ok I have heard that desexing a male dog at a young age makes them grow bigger than if they were desexed later. I have also heard that if a dog was to be desexed around 6 months old they may grow taller and more leggy than if they were left until say around 12 to 18 months old, as it affect the hormones which are used/produced during this time.

Anyone have any experience to back this up or contradict this, particularly with Rottweiler type (large) dogs

Vanessa

I heard the opposite is true, the earlier you desex them the less they grow and I heard that when you desex males their heads stop growing, would love some info on this....

Their heads stop growing? errr.. no. My puppy is from a shelter, so he was desexed at 2.5 months. He was the size of a guinea pig. Can't even imagine what he would look like if his head had stopped growing at 2.5 months.

I have heard that males that are desexed young tend to stay leggier and leaner, and undesexed males fill out and bulk up more.

I decided to get my Great Dane male desexed at 4 months mainly due to the fact that he started humping (not that he knew what he was doing) and if he tried to hump one of my girl dogs, he would have had the biggest barny lol. He is now almost 10 months old 33" at his shoulders and is over 50kgs. He is slim and lanky and has a slender head. He is the biggest gentle giant and such a couch potato! hehe

Desexing doesn't stop humping. My puppy started humping at 3 months old, after he was desexed. He used to take every opportunity to hump, but seems to have grown out of it these days.

Edited April 23, 2011 by fuzzy82

[Baileys mum]

I had one of my pups from my 1st litter come for a visit last week...he was desexed at 4 months old & is very leggy, lanky & much taller than his dad & his brother Jasper (the pup that we kept) who is still entire. Bailey & jasper are shorter than Rex..but much broader & bulkier than him.

So I would have to agree that Rex being desexed early may have affected his growth.

[jacqui835]

Ok I have heard that desexing a male dog at a young age makes them grow bigger than if they were desexed later. I have also heard that if a dog was to be desexed around 6 months old they may grow taller and more leggy than if they were left until say around 12 to 18 months old, as it affect the hormones which are used/produced during this time.

Anyone have any experience to back this up or contradict this, particularly with Rottweiler type (large) dogs

Vanessa

I have a video if you're interested of my dobe playing with a male rottie who was desexed at 2-3 months old - in the video they are both just over 1 year old. IMO, he's hideous, but the owner loves him. He is very leggy and tall - much larger than most rotties you see, has that strange sort of eternally almost puppy like temperament and a small head in proportion to the rest of the body.

I also have some photos of my dobe playing with a GSP who was desexed at about 6 months, and again, he's very tall/leggy, is not fat but has more of a barrel shaped body than what the entire ones have and a small head.

Just looking through my photos I also have some of a male weim who was desexed at 1.5 years compared with his half brother who was done at 6 months. One is a skinny tall dog with a fine head, the other is a solid impressive masculine looking dog.

If you want to see any of these email me and I'll send you the links.

It's definitely a matter of personal preference - what look you prefer that is, but there is definitely a difference.

[Gayle.]

This is my Australian Shepherd boy who was desexed at 4.5 months. He is well within the height standard, nicely proportioned, not leggy and certainly not hideous. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's quite a handsome lad. Really, the only thing he's missing aside from the obvious, is a thick ruff of hair around his neck.

[WreckitWhippet]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Dogsrawesome]

Dobes looks so much better with their ears cropped, IMO.

Agreed. I'm moving to Europe in a couple of years and I will finally hopefully be able to own my cropped dobe

As for the desexing, if you can last until 2 years with an undesexed male dog and managed to cope, I'm not sure that you'd need to worry about it. To be honest with you, I've only ever had female dogs desexed, I've also seen the studies posted and I just don't believe it's necessary or better for the dog health-wise. If you can control your dog and stop him from reproducing, I don't see the need and I prefer my dog to be as nature intended.

For anyone who then says, "yeah but you want to crop their ears," that's because dogs originally all had upright ears, we just thought it made them look cute to selectively breed for floppy ears, so I don't see that as the natural state.

You say you like your dogs to be as nature intended but you want a dobermann with cropped ears? Dogs born with floppy ears should keep floppy ears. Born with tail should keep the tail thats the way nature intended after all . As for desexing i cant really say, but i have found this thread very interesting to read

[Danois]

My first dane was desexed young (around 5 months) and he was a tall leggy boy.

I think desexing later rather than earlier is more of an issue for the larger breeds.

[Boxerheart]

This is my Australian Shepherd boy who was desexed at 4.5 months. He is well within the height standard, nicely proportioned, not leggy and certainly not hideous. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's quite a handsome lad. Really, the only thing he's missing aside from the obvious, is a thick ruff of hair around his neck.

Though he is nice looking and I am sure you love him as he is..he does not have anything masculine about him. He is very pretty and has a puppish feminine head. He has not developed as a male dog would if desexed later.

JMHO as an outsider looking in.

[Boxerheart]

In Great Danes they seem to grow taller and be leggier if desexed earlier. Although I don't see what the problem is really, just the same as an entire Great Dane that was bred poorly...

From what I understand, desexing earlier can keep the growth plates open.

thats what I have read about the growth plates, I dont plan to desex until 12 or so mths for this reason

Yes desexing early, or gelding a horse will keep the growth plates open longer.

[Gayle.]

How well do you know the breed? He most definitely does not have a feminine head. Nor does he have a puppyish head.

[Dogsrawesome]

How well do you know the breed? He most definitely does not have a feminine head. Nor does he have a puppyish head.

x2 his face doesnt look puppyish to me either

[WreckitWhippet]

Forget about the head and the " puppy" look, he lacks breed type, to the point where it's difficult to tell what breed he actually is.

[Alyosha]

In it's most simple form, hormones create different patterns of growth. A picture tells a thousand words.

So I (hopefully) don't offend people I am using cattle as an example. These are all the same breed, Brahmans. In cattle, the different growth brought about by desexing at different ages is plain to see.

A cow looks different to a bull, we all know that:

Bull, and Cow.

But, a steer is a male that is castrated (desexed) prior to sexual maturity:

A bullock, however, is a male that is castrated after reaching sexual maturity:

See how the steer still has a slightly masculine look, but also looks a little like the cow (and yes this guy is young but you can nlearly see the different growth pattern). Not to say he is necessarily feminine, just that he lacks some of the physical characteristics of a bull that are brought about by adult hormones and unaltered growth patterns. He will never attain these.

And the bullock looks physically like a bull, but is free of the hormonal mood and behavioural issues - heance he can be more safely ridden etc...

This is where you will hear comments about difference in head, neck or shoulder size - imagine the difference between a bull's head and a steer's head and you will understand what people mean.

[Dogsrawesome]

slightly off topic but i love brahmans