Every Breeders'/dog Owners' Nightmare.......tenfold

[Missymoo]

I havnt had any repurcussions, so I guess I am very lucky...

[nickojoy]

Hi again,

Thanks for the replies........

What is Virkon S, Trigene & F10.....do they do a better job of killing the Parvo than bleach?

A strong disinfectant.

Virkon S is the only product known in Australia to kill the virus in the dirt. F10 is great for the hard surfaces. But you can use Virkon S on everything. Put it in your mop bucket, in the carpet cleaner, spray the lounge up the walls, the dog beds etc. (but i would personally throw all bedding and dog toys out.) Our bleech in Oz isn't strong enough to kill it.

Forgot to mention Trigene smells like bubble gum - used it once on hard surface, not sure how it works and if it works in the dirt.

Virkon S is used by ASIQ to spray various used dog products coming back into Oz. Its safe to use and isn't the strong smell like bleech that could effect the dogs eyes.

Parvac is a dead vacine, you can buy it yourself from the net and it will work out cheaper for you to adminster than the vet.

I never new about the bigger breeds its more common in, I heard the rumors of the the black breeds, like rottis and GSD's.

Parvo loves the heat, it will lay dormant for years in the ground (approx 7 years) and then spurt back up if left untreated. Parvo doesn't usually effect dogs in the winter because its still dormant in the ground, but once the sun comes out its strives.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nickojoy

[ZooBird]

I did have one of the pups from this litter - JeanBob or the gorgeous Diesel as we named him.

I have sent you an email with the info I have found out.

Hope Logan is still going strong.

xxx

[Addicted2gold]

I can't offer you any advice, but just wanted to let you know how sorry I was to read what has happened. I have tears rolling down my face, the heartache you must be going through as well as your puppy buyers. My prayers and positive thoughts are with you all. Play nicely at the bridge precious little ones

[Bullbreedlover]

Your experience does sound truly devastating.

I feel for your loss.

Virkon S has been around for many years and we used it back home at the vet club I worked at.

I was always told that the virus can live in the soil for 2 years. You can also wash all dog beds etc in the virkon but of course it will stain them all pink. The other alternative is to replace everything

We never vaccinate our puppies at 6 weeks old. Ever. Always 8 weeks and then 12 weeks.

Heartbeak for you and your puppy buyers.

Do you know how this was introduced to your puppies?

The vaccine is a live one but perhaps someone has brought the virus onto your place.

Edited September 27, 2009 by stonebridge

[Cavalier]

Cavalier, you say that you treat about 5 a week.......do you find that it is more around in any particular season? I have been told that it is more common in the summer months??

When I was in Perth spring early summer was the "parvo season". Up here its hot all year round, so it really just comes in waves. Over the past few weeks we have a mass influx - about 30 cases in total. I think its because there have been lots of people moving to town recently and bringing their new puppy with them. More pups = more parvo. Luckily we have only lost one puppy in this outbreak....

We also usually have an outbreak after a cyclone or a big rain downpour.

We are lucky up here in that we have a custom built parvo ward which is completely separate from the rest of the hospital. It has its own separate airconditioning, waste system, plumbing etc. All the other clinics I have worked at have not had any isolation...scary thought.

[poocow]

poocow,

Did your little guy show the repurcussions right from the start, or did they only show up at a later date??

This is also a concern for me, not just with my little Logan (who didn't have a serious case of Parvo), but also with little Po who is still fighting it after a huge battle.........what is her prognosis likely to be, and what sort of repurcussions are we talking about?

His spine collapsed in 3 places around 2 months after the initial parvo - his spinal column then had the parvo virus infection in it. He was on antibiotics for 2 months for that. His vertebrae fused because of where the joints collapsed. Lucky they were ones not important for him walking etc. I do have to be careful not to push him to hard at agility and things like that.

Hes also got ongoing digestive issues and has to have medication twice daily to prevent him throwing up. Unmedicated he would throw up 2-3 times a day.

[nickojoy]

poocow,

Did your little guy show the repurcussions right from the start, or did they only show up at a later date??

This is also a concern for me, not just with my little Logan (who didn't have a serious case of Parvo), but also with little Po who is still fighting it after a huge battle.........what is her prognosis likely to be, and what sort of repurcussions are we talking about?

His spine collapsed in 3 places around 2 months after the initial parvo - his spinal column then had the parvo virus infection in it. He was on antibiotics for 2 months for that. His vertebrae fused because of where the joints collapsed. Lucky they were ones not important for him walking etc. I do have to be careful not to push him to hard at agility and things like that.

Hes also got ongoing digestive issues and has to have medication twice daily to prevent him throwing up. Unmedicated he would throw up 2-3 times a day.

I didn't realise it was that bad.

[poocow]

poocow,

Did your little guy show the repurcussions right from the start, or did they only show up at a later date??

This is also a concern for me, not just with my little Logan (who didn't have a serious case of Parvo), but also with little Po who is still fighting it after a huge battle.........what is her prognosis likely to be, and what sort of repurcussions are we talking about?

His spine collapsed in 3 places around 2 months after the initial parvo - his spinal column then had the parvo virus infection in it. He was on antibiotics for 2 months for that. His vertebrae fused because of where the joints collapsed. Lucky they were ones not important for him walking etc. I do have to be careful not to push him to hard at agility and things like that.

Hes also got ongoing digestive issues and has to have medication twice daily to prevent him throwing up. Unmedicated he would throw up 2-3 times a day.

I didn't realise it was that bad.

I was a bad mummy and slept in this morning and nearly forgot about his meds (all out of routine you know), I could tell he wasn't feeling right as he was curled up in his bed looking sad

[memrabull]

Your experience does sound truly devastating.

I feel for your loss.

Virkon S has been around for many years and we used it back home at the vet club I worked at.

I was always told that the virus can live in the soil for 2 years. You can also wash all dog beds etc in the virkon but of course it will stain them all pink. The other alternative is to replace everything

We never vaccinate our puppies at 6 weeks old. Ever. Always 8 weeks and then 12 weeks.

Heartbeak for you and your puppy buyers.

Do you know how this was introduced to your puppies?

The vaccine is a live one but perhaps someone has brought the virus onto your place.

Hi Deb,

Why don't you vaccinate at 6 weeks old......do you think that could have made things worse for us??

I have since read that the vaccine 'suppresses' their immune system??

I received a reply from Dr Jean Dodds "In the case of infectious diseases, it is not unusual to have one or two pups remain only mildly ill or not get sick at all, when the rest of the litter is very ill or succumbs-- so it does apears that these litters were infected accutely with a parvo-like virus. The shed vaccine virus from the first older litter could have exposed the second litter that then became immune suppressed by the vaccination they were given [many vaccines cause relative immune suppression for the first 3-7 days after vaccination] on top of the exposure to the first litter's shed vaccine virus.

While we have been giving just a single parvovirus vaccine to pups as young as 6 weeks of age in areas of North America whee there is an current endemic of parvo 2-c, we generally do not recommend vaccinating puppies this young and certainly would not recommend a combo vaccine before 8- 8.5 weeks, and preferably not until 9-10 weeks."

Another breeder has told me that two of her litters of 5 & 7 who were vaccinated at the same time, all died within a week of vaccination.......but the vets & manufacturers totally denied that a vaccine could do that to puppies??

I usually only vaccinate a little after 7 weeks old, but my vet advised me that the 'protocol' for vaccinations had just changed.......so thought I would do the right thing & listened to him........but I'm now pretty concerned about vaccinations!

I have gone over & over every 'scenario' as to how this has happened.........I never take our puppies to the vets for their shots, but I get the vets to come to our place, though they stay outside the puppy pen & I hold them one by one to get their needle. I have since found out that Parvo had started in our town at least a month or so before my babies came down with it.......could the vet have brought it into my yard & one of the mums picked it up?? Who knows??........Dazy had been a bit 'fussy' with her food, but I had put it down to her being totally weaned from her puppies & not getting all her exotic goodies in the feed dish to supplement her feeding her babies........maybe she came down with it - in a mild form - & then passed it to her babies when she had her daily 'kisses' through their fence????

Or maybe when the vet came to give them their microchips the day before my babies left???

Or did one of us unknowingly walk it into our yard??

Or did our tyres??

Or did the little birds who loved to come into the puppy yard & try to feed on any 'leftovers'??

It really breaks my heart everytime I look at where my puppies should be playing, & realise that I may have 'unwittingly' done this to them.

I have begun the huge task of Virkon-ing everything......bought a 5 kg tub........& want to know......how many times should I redo everything.

My little Logan is now fully recovered & is totally spoilt, but I don't dare let him back outside, I am so paranoid that he can 'catch' it again......most seem to say he should now be immune for life, but some say they can catch it again??

Dr Jean Dodds said I could get him titer tested after 16 weeks old, so I can't wait until I can do that to see if he is now 'immune'.

The first photo of Logan is at nearly 6 weeks old.....only days before our nightmare started!

The second photo I have just taken now at 8 1/2 weeks old.......not as 'chubby' yet as he should be, but he never stays still.....he is soooo full of beans, but we love that!!!

poocow......I'm really sorry to hear that your little guy is still suffering because of this wretched virus......I only pray that my poor remaining babies have escaped permanent damage!!

[poocow]

poocow......I'm really sorry to hear that your little guy is still suffering because of this wretched virus......I only pray that my poor remaining babies have escaped permanent damage!!

I will keep my fingers crossed for you. My vet has said I was one of the unlucky ones - or rather Darcy was as the effects of his parvo come back to bite him even now 6 years later.

[Bullbreedlover]

For more than 30 years we have used the protocol of not vaccinating until at least 8 weeks old. Yes the vaccine does suppress their immune system. And if you also add a scenario that for some reason the pups immune system or general health system was already in a small way down, then its just like a nightmare waiting to happen.

I havent heard of the new vaccination method for young puppies and I think he got that one totally wrong.

In hindsight, if they were my babies I would of said no...we are doing it this way. ie 8 weeks and then 12 weeks.

The puppies would not of gone off my property until at least 9 weeks old.

So the first litter were done at 6 weeks with vaccine batch???A

the first litter were done at 8 weeks with batch??????A??????

and at the same time the first litter had their 8 week shot the second litter had their 6 week shot with batch?????A?????

is that correct?

did they all have the same batch number vaccine.

You know its all very well the vets saying its not their fault and the company saying its not our fault but i would be looking into it more. especially if they ALL had the same batch number vaccine.

There are other things to look at.

Your vet is bound by a duty of care to make sure that if he has treated any cases of parvo prior to coming to your place, then he should not of been there.If there was parvo where you(town) are he should of told you.

There are lots of if's, I know that but you need answers otherwise you will never know

[Cavalier]

Your vet is bound by a duty of care to make sure that if he has treated any cases of parvo prior to coming to your place, then he should not of been there.If there was parvo where you(town) are he should of told you.

Its not quite as easy as this.

We are the only vets in our town (and the only vets for another 300kms). We see about 5 cases of Parvo a week and 90% of these are treated in hospital (an isolation).

By your definition - we should not vaccinate puppies at all???

Its just not practical

[Bullbreedlover]

Your vet is bound by a duty of care to make sure that if he has treated any cases of parvo prior to coming to your place, then he should not of been there.If there was parvo where you(town) are he should of told you.

Its not quite as easy as this.

We are the only vets in our town (and the only vets for another 300kms). We see about 5 cases of Parvo a week and 90% of these are treated in hospital (an isolation).

By your definition - we should not vaccinate puppies at all???

Its just not practical

And its just heartbreak to lose 2 litters of puppies.

Common sense comes into the picture.

The puppies should of had immunity from the bitch.

The vet should of said that he has treated cases of parvo knowing full well he was vaccinating puppies. I still believe he had a duty of care.

How would anyone else feel if a vet turned up at your place to vaccinate puppies and has just been treating other dogs with parvo.

Perhaps the batch is at fault.

There are many scenarios.

We can only surmise.

I have already posted about my thoughts on vaccinating puppies.

[memrabull]

I have been worrying about this all day.........and researching it, & I am more confused then ever!!!

At what age does everybody have their puppies first vaccination & then what age do they let their puppies go??

Thanks for your reply Deb.....and if I am looking at the right part, yes, the vaccines are from the same batch.

I have always let our babies go at 8-9 weeks old - usually 9 weeks as I used to get their first vaccination at 7 weeks, then waited 2 weeks before they were allowed to go to their new homes - but this time, listened to the vets regarding the new vaccination protocol starting at 6 weeks old.

We had also recently bought in a new boy to be a future stud dog, & he was only 8 weeks old when we got him & he had been vaccinated at 6 weeks old. This is through a breeder who has been breeding Bullmastiffs for more than 20 years, and has been showing dogs for over 35 years, is a ANKC Champ Judge & has bred many, many, many litters over the years.

I thought this was a pretty standard protocol, vaccinate at 6 weeks (I thought I was the odd one out usually doing them at 7 weeks old) & let them go to their new homes at 8 weeks old.

BUT, I am definitely a person who wants to know other breeder's opinions & what has worked for them, especially now after this tragedy has happened!

Also, does everyone let their puppies run in an outside pen? or are they kept inside until they leave for their new homes.

I usually have my babies inside until they are 4 - 5 weeks old (when they start to escape from their whelping box) in a sunlit room, then they progress to their puppy pen - a separate yard just for our babies - with a large attached room. I couldn't imagine our babies not being able to run around outside, as they absolutely love it & I am sure it couldn't be healthy for them to stay inside??

This Parvo has definitely knocked me for a six, & I think the reality of what has happened is really clicking in now - I'm on a huge emotional rollercoaster & am always on the verge of bawling......& if you knew me, you would know that I don't show my emotions very often!

If you are a breeder & have had something like this happen to you, I would REALLY, REALLY love to hear from you, as though I have received so much support from you all (and a BIG thankyou for that), nobody has said if they have lost a litter from Parvo........am I the only one?? How does a breeder come back from this & take the enormous risk of this happening again??

[memrabull]

Sorry.....another thing.......

Even though I am doing everything to 'kill' the Parvo at our place........what stops it being 'dragged' in here again at a later date??

Are we to always use a footbath just to enter our property??

If Parvo is so prevalant, how are we to avoid it other than what we have already been doing as responsible dog owners - vaccinations, etc, etc?

It is soooo frustrating to see so many dogs roaming the streets, never getting sick or injured, and we love & care for our dogs, & this happens.

Sorry.......I am obviously getting in a frustrated & negative mood (which in itself is frustrating......I am usually a very Positive person!!)

[Cavalier]

Sorry.....another thing.......

Even though I am doing everything to 'kill' the Parvo at our place........what stops it being 'dragged' in here again at a later date??

Are we to always use a footbath just to enter our property??

If Parvo is so prevalant, how are we to avoid it other than what we have already been doing as responsible dog owners - vaccinations, etc, etc?

It is soooo frustrating to see so many dogs roaming the streets, never getting sick or injured, and we love & care for our dogs, & this happens.

Sorry.......I am obviously getting in a frustrated & negative mood (which in itself is frustrating......I am usually a very Positive person!!)

When you find this out can you please tell me the secret???

We always tell people up here to never take their pup outside their property until after their 3rd vaccine. Even people that have followed this advice to a T have ended up with a pup with parvo.

Its a horrible virus, you have no idea where it is and when it will strike. You can take every single possible precaution and still end up with infections.

[dancinbcs]

First let me say how terribly sorry I am to hear of this tragedy. It truly is every breeder’s nightmare.

I have been breeding since 1983 and know many breeders who were 20 years in front of me. In all that time, I have only ever heard of one breeder, that I know, losing one litter to parvo and that was about 20 years ago. Thankfully, it is a very rare occurrence and that is probably why there has not been any advice from anyone who has been in the same situation. Every breeder I know personally has always vaccinated at 6 weeks and 12 weeks with an occasional extra vaccine at 16 weeks depending on how much parvo is around at the time.

Having a very active breed, the puppies are always outside from about 4-5 weeks onwards and the level of quarantine varies between breeders. When raising a litter, some never take any of their dogs off the property, always take their shoes off at the door and don’t allow anyone else to wear shoes in. They don’t allow other dogs to visit or have friends visit if they have been to shows or training. At the other end of the scale are those who continue to show every week, have lots of visitors and take puppies out to socialise from 8 weeks.

Personally I have always been about in the middle but take particular care (especially with the shoes off at the door rule) when the puppies are aged between 5 and 7 weeks. I believe that is when they are most likely to be vulnerable if the immunity from their mum is wearing off and the immune system is compromised for several days after that first vaccination. I take puppies to the vets to be vaccinated but carry them in one at a time or get the vet to come out and do them in the car.

With your litters, my “guess” would be that someone walked the virus in at the time that the puppies were vaccinated. If their immune systems were coping with the first vaccine or the second one in two weeks, at the exact same time as they were exposed to the virus then they would have had no chance of fighting it. The vet may have been treating parvo cases that had not had not been diagnosed as parvo. Not all dogs get drastically ill from it and if they recover quickly, the diagnosis may never be confirmed. Maybe someone else walked it in or one of your other dogs brought it in if they had been off the property. They can carry it on their feet and coat without being affected by it themselves.

The newest vaccination protocols from the AVA do not give a recommended age for first vaccination but do state that the final puppy vaccination should not be before 16 weeks. Quoted from the AVA site:

“Because of maternally derived antibody and the variability in its level and duration between

individuals, vaccines should ideally be administered two to three times to puppies and kittens,

with timing of the final dose being variable but not earlier than the age of 16 weeks (the

suggested age varies with the manufacturer and the vaccine). If cost is an issue and only one

vaccine is possible, it should be at the age of 16 weeks or older.”

How to make sure you avoid it in future? Other than following the strictest quarantine measures you can think of, you can only cross your fingers and hope it never comes your way again.

[ZooBird]

This might be a really dumb question and I apologise if it is BUT I have used Virkon on everything - thoroughly saturated the entire yard and soil multiple times and will keep doing so for a while but is there someone - like a pest guy i guess?? - who can come out and measure if there is still Parvo in the ground?? Do people even do this??

might be a dumb question but i'd definately look into it if it was available

[memrabull]

This might be a really dumb question and I apologise if it is BUT I have used Virkon on everything - thoroughly saturated the entire yard and soil multiple times and will keep doing so for a while but is there someone - like a pest guy i guess?? - who can come out and measure if there is still Parvo in the ground?? Do people even do this??

might be a dumb question but i'd definately look into it if it was available

Great question.......I would definitely love to know also!!!