Every Breeders'/dog Owners' Nightmare.......tenfold

[memrabull]

Hi,

I am new to the forum, though have been a member of DogzOnline for years........

I apologise upfront for such a long post........

I am a breeder/exhibitor who adores my dogs & do everything in my power to do the best by them.

I recently had two litters two weeks apart, which amounted to 21 gorgeous, happy, chubby, playful & adored puppies.

Any breeder would understand the sheer pride/joy/love/amazement of having two such successful litters.........& then to have disaster strike in the form of Parvo; it has been absolutely heartbreaking.

I am extremely careful with any litter I have - as our house is on the market, I figured it would be too hard to have the puppies inside, as I usually do, if I had an inspection, so instead, I moved out into a detached laundry with its own yard. I slept out there with them for the first 4 weeks of their lives, watching them 24/7 to make sure the mums didn't squash their babies & that all babies were feeding. Also, since they were such large litters, right from day 1 I supplemented their feeds with bottle feeding them fresh Goat's Milk, so you can imagine how extremely close I got to every single baby.

They absolutely thrived right from the start, with no worries with any puppy (again, another point to be thankful for).....they were happy, energetic babies with huge appetites.

At 6 weeks old, my oldest litter had their first vaccination (C4) & with no real dramas.......but is this where I made my first mistake??

Right from the start I had both litters in the same room (both mum's have great temperements) in separate whelping boxes, but when the puppies started going outside a bit, I had them all together.......that is my first question - should I have kept them separate......did the vaccinated puppies somehow infect my younger litter with Parvo from their injection??? I can't really find out the answer to this, only that a small amount of virus can be shed by vaccinated puppies - but enough to infect an unvaccinated puppy??

I have emailed Dr Jean Dodd's (I have seen her name mentioned quite a bit on this forum) regarding all this & I'm looking forward to her reply.

At 8 weeks old, eight of my eleven of the eldest litter (I was keeping a little girl, and the other two were going to fly out with the younger litter) went to their new homes - 7 flew, 1 was local; happy, playful, chubby puppies leaving a sad mum behind to find their new adventures in their new families (I am very fussy about who my puppies go to, & I screen the buyers to make sure they will provide the best of homes) - just how it should be.

Everybody got their new baby & was excited about their newest member of their families.......not realising that the future was about to deal us all a terrible blow.

Three days later, I had my youngest litter, then 6 weeks old, given their first vaccination & the 3 eight week old babies still with me had their 2nd vaccination (I was told that the new vaccination protocal was 6, 8 & then 10-12 weeks old), so thought I was doing the right thing.

A day later was the start of the nightmare.......

I had 3 puppies off their food a bit, so just to be safe, I emailed everyone to make sure their puppies were fine.......most were, but one had been taken to the vet off their food......still no panic, yet!

Then a puppy tested positive to Parvo......so I immediately rang everyone to warn them & to take extra, extra notice of everything their puppy did.

This was to be of no avail.......even though everyone was extremely diligent & took their puppy to the vets at the first sign of anything wrong; 8 of my 11 beautiful older puppies died, and 9 of my 10 younger puppies died regardless of their treatment.

The day I realised just how deadly this strain of Parvo was (the first 5 of my beautiful babies died that day) even with 24/7 veteranarian care, I immediately started Googling alternative treatments. This led me to Parvaid, which I immediately ordered from America going Super Express (1-3 working days) hoping against hope that it might save some puppies.......this wasn't meant to be. Even though it arrived in Australia in 3 days, it got caught up in Customs/Quarantine for 5 days (though we weren't told of this until the 4th day), which ended up being too late to save any of my babies. My last surviving puppy still at home, Logan, didn't seem to get Parvo as severly and was already starting to improve, but I did everything possible to get that Parvaid out of Quarantine (ringing the manufacturere in the middle of the night, etc) & when it was finally released (with a fee of $68), Fedex then informed me it wouldn't be delivered until Monday (this was last Friday). Not wanting to take the chance that my little Logan would relapse, I then arranged for a courier to pickup the Parvaid from Sydney & fly it to the Brisbane airport (another $218.......worked out to be very expensive Parvaid.....but worth every cent if it worked as good as I have read) which then my husband did a 5 hour round trip to pick up. I have been giving Logan the 'post Parvo' dose to hopefully prevent a relapse & to help build him back up.....so far so good.

While waiting for the Parvaid, I also read that Tamiflu could also 'cure' Parvo, so tried this as well. The last five babies received this, though 2 were past the 'within 48 hours of first sign', 1 was just at the 48 hour mark, 1 just showed signs that morning, and Logan was yet to show any signs, so he went on the 'preventative' dose. I again rang the USA to talk to the vet who is researching the Tamiflu, and did everything to his instructions.......but still 4 of the 5 died??!!

I am not sure if you can totally understand the sheer heartache & frustration these last two weeks have been for me, unless you have gone through similar yourself.

Will I breed again.....not too sure......definitely not at this location, but even at our next place, how can I justify the risk of this devastation happening again to cause such gorgeous babies to go through such a horrendous virus with seemingly little I can do to prevent it/treat it?? I have since discovered Parvo can be carried by flies, birds, mice, shoes, tyres, etc, etc......how do you avoid that??

Not to mention my poor, heartbroken puppy buyers who have had to share in this heartache and watch their new babies die, when it should have been such an exciting time having a new baby around!!

I currently have 2 British Bulldog babies born 5 days ago, and my father has a litter of pups due any day........you can't believe how much I have been dreading these litters being born since this nightmare began. What should have been an exciting time for me (haven't had a Bulldog litter in 4 years), holds so much dread for these poor little babies. I am keeping them totally isolated, & my poor body is starting to show the effects of constantly being sprayed with bleach, but I have got to give these helpless little babies every chance (needless to say, I have got them on the prevantative dose of Parvaid).

There is some fantastic news amidst this very depressing post........two of my older litter babies never showed any signs of Parvo, & today is day 16 since they left me........surely this must mean that they are now in the clear!! One other little girl is still fighting it & is showing signs of improvement, so I am still praying for her full recovery.

And now after all this rambling, sorry, I have a few questions.......

The puppies were due to be wormed when all this started, so Logan obviously needs to be wormed, but should I do it yet, or wait until his poor digestive system has healed?

Now that these surviving babies have been exposed/suffered from Parvo, does that mean that they have immunity from it, or do they still need their remaining vaccinations, and when, or should I do a titer test first (have read about them on this forum also)?

I'm sorry again about such a long post......this last fortnight has seemed like an eternity to me, so it was hard to express everything in a short post.

I would really love to hear from anyone who has been devastated by Parvo, and how you came back from it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and any suggestions/personal experiences will be most appreciated.

RIP my beautiful, precious babies - I loved every minute I spent with you; watching you grow & the utter joy I had at our 'chew on mum' times..... I love you Kerchak, Mushu, JeanBob, Pooka, Terk, Rajah, Mater, Sully, Rogue, Storm, JakJak, Hercules, Electra, Kit, Flash, Hiro & Dash.

I had truly hoped that you would experience every doggy joy here on earth......but it wasn't meant to be, so I hope you are now enjoying doggy heaven!!

[nickojoy]

Get yourself some Virkon S and spray your yard and fingers crossed for the litter of pups born not long ago.

To be extra careful, you can give your babies a parvac shot at 2 weeks, 4 weeks and then a C3 at 6 weeks. People in high risk areas have done this and it worked.

Sorry for your loss, hope all works out with the rest of your babies.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nickojoy

[Staff&Cav]

wow, I can add nothing except my deepest simpathy

[all that glitters]

That is just so sad, so many losses and they hadn't even started their lives yet What a terrible experience for any one, for any breeder, for any dog lover. RIP little ones

[piper]

OMG, How absolutely devastating for you and your puppy buyers. Unbfortunately I can't ofer any ideas or advice but just wanted to say how sorry I am for you and everyone involved.

[Cavalier]

When had the bitches last recieved a vaccination?

[Missymoo]

You must be the poor breeder of the pup that zoobird posted about.

Im sooo sorry you had to go through this,how horrific for you. But big Kudus and for giving pup buyers a warning and taking responsibilty for them, that shows a caring and ethical breeder.

I too have been hit by parvo with a 6 month old vaccinated puppy (I picked up from showgrounds in NSW, I am in VIC) I can only say that he may have made it due to his age and the fact I picked it up before the diorreah (sp) started. But it was very tough and touch and go for the full two weeks he was in intensive care. (There is a thread on here somewhere following Hefs journey, back in Nov/Dec last year)

My elder dogs didnt contract it but they were all over two and vaccinated and yes I am well aware of the bleach smell! I used Trigene and F10 as well in spaybottles left around the house.

Im so pleased you had some sucess with Parvaid, fantastic, I too was looking at that...interesting to hear it got caught up in Quarrentine. I understand how money is not an issue when you are fighting an uphill battle, it dosnt seem important does it? Sounds like the two bitch pups that havnt showed signs will be ok too, fantastic!

Its a horrible learning curve but boy did I google everything to do with the diesease..if I wasnt on the phone to vet I was on DOL or googling Parvo or calling DOLers who had been through it too. The English vet that was treating him (one off) said that this strain of Parvo here in Australia seems to be more deadly then what she used to see in the UK, that dosnt help...

Alos I did some more researching into Vaccinations and timing as well on DOL (there is some great info shared if you do a search) and google and now get my babies done at 8,12 and 16 weeks.

Not sure abouyt the shedding virus with unvaccinated pups, could be possible as yes it is a live vaccine??

Curious, what breed?

My boy is now fully coated and back in the showring and is a healthy happy dog. i still add natural probitics and slippery elm to his food as of course his bowel is bad from everything...http://www.holisticanimalmedicines.com/index.php?gPath=17&sort=2a&page=3 I use these people.

All the best and big hugs

Ps Nickojoy where were you last year! You sound very knowledgeable!!!

HEFS THREAD:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...mp;hl=hef/parvo

Edited September 27, 2009 by Missymoo

[Staranais]

They absolutely thrived right from the start, with no worries with any puppy (again, another point to be thankful for).....they were happy, energetic babies with huge appetites.

At 6 weeks old, my oldest litter had their first vaccination (C4) & with no real dramas.......but is this where I made my first mistake??

Right from the start I had both litters in the same room (both mum's have great temperements) in separate whelping boxes, but when the puppies started going outside a bit, I had them all together.......that is my first question - should I have kept them separate......did the vaccinated puppies somehow infect my younger litter with Parvo from their injection??? I can't really find out the answer to this, only that a small amount of virus can be shed by vaccinated puppies - but enough to infect an unvaccinated puppy??

To answer your questions, the virus that is injected is a different strain to the wild Parvo strain, the vaccine strain has been altered so it is not as virulent, and should only cause mild disease symptoms.

It is possible for the virus vaccine, since it is a live organism, to mutate back to the virulent wild state when it is injected into the dog, however the chance of this happening is vanishingly small (as in, they can sometimes force it to occur in the laboratory so we know it can happen, but the chances of it happening under field conditions are minute and there are only a few reported cases in human or canine medicine).

It is also possible, if the pups were already immunocompromised for some reason, that even the mild vaccine form of the virus could have caused unusually severe parvo-like symptoms. Enough to kill the pups? I'm not sure.

Another possibility is that the pups were infected with wild parvo from another source which had nothing to do with the vaccine. Someone could have bought the virus in on your clothes or shoes, perhaps from the park or vet clinic, or as you have found it can even be transfered into your yard by things like wild birds which you cannot control...

I'm very, very sorry for your loss. Parvo is a horrible disease, and unfortunately there are no guarantees that you will be spared even if you do everything right for your puppies.

[nickojoy]

Ps Nickojoy where were you last year! You sound very knowledgeable!!!

I was overseas working with the United Nations for 6 months. But I too lost a lot of puppies from parvo and I know how hard it would have been for you to just ring and warn the new pups owners. I was the one that was ringing people that had just placed deposits on our rescue pups. The pups that were born in my yard or the ones with their mothers that I bought home from the pounds were fine as the mothers received a parvac prior to giving birth.

We were looking at importing parvaid into Australia for rescue, but quarenteen wouldn't allow it at that stage. At least you got it through even if it was just a slight delay.

Parvo can be carried on the dogs fur, poo, birds, shoes, car tires, clothes, hands and your dogs feet. The list goes on.

The thing is your pups were clean pups, its not like you bought a pound pup home that was carrying the virus and let your guys run together, you were not to know that you were going to get the virus, so don't blame yourself for letting them run together. And plus the C4 isn't a contributing factor to this, it should have kicked in and helped the pups survive.

What Cavalier said about the bitches vacs may be a contributor.

[Cavalier]

The thing is - maternal antibodies are not usually low enough at 6-8 weeks for a pup to contract parvo. Unless of course the bitch was not fully vaccinated, or has not recieved a vaccine in some time.

It always worries me when breeders say their breeding bitches only get their pup vaccs, one annual then thats it for life. What if they are not exposed to the virus enough throughout their life to produce enough antibodies for the puppies they are raising?

Yes the bitch has memory cells and she would most likely be protected if she were to come into contact with parvo. However memory cells are not shared with the pups through colostrum, only circulating antibodies.

It also interests me about the apparent low sucess rate with treatment of parvo....

We are in a town where there is a very high incidence of parvo virus (mostly due to high levels of unvaccinated stray/camp dogs roaming the streets. We, on average, treat about 5 parvo cases a week. There is an equal occurance with both pedigree and cross breed dogs. Most are infected around 10-12 weeks of age as maternal antibodies wane and havent finished their course of vaccinations.

We have a (calculated from our cases) 90% success rate with hospital treatment. We class success as the puppy surviving and having no long lasting effects from the virus. Most cases are in hospital for less than 5 days. Treatment at our hospital involves IV fluids, antibiotics, anti-nausea medication and glucose.

Just a thought for everyone...

Edited September 27, 2009 by Cavalier

[kelpiekaye]

I really feel for you and your new owners. What a terrible thing to go through. Good luck for the future.

[nickojoy]

It also interests me about the apparent low sucess rate with treatment of parvo....

It comes down the the vet. 1 vet I used had nearly 100% sucess rate, the other was only 25%.

[Missymoo]

I agree with the vet, 3 of the vets working on my dog had delt with alot of Parvo. Also had different ways of treating the symptoms and things to try...so true..

This is becoming a very informative thread

Nickojoy, are you still going to try to import Parvaid?

Also Cavalier and staranis, I had a litter by this Parvo recovered dog and a bitch that didnt contract the virus, would the pups (who are now 4 months old) have high tolerence to Parvo from mums imunity and her being expossed?? (Yes they are still all vaccinated!!)

[nickojoy]

Nickojoy, are you still going to try to import Parvaid?

Depends on how long the use by date is. If its over 12 months yes, but under no because its not worth it.

Ignore my last - Parvaid has a 4 year shelf life.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nickojoy

[memrabull]

Hi again,

Thanks for the replies........

What is Virkon S, Trigene & F10.....do they do a better job of killing the Parvo than bleach?

I have never heard of doing vaccinations from 2 weeks old.....I will talk to my vet (he studied/researched immunology for 20 years).

I have read about giving blood plasma to puppies that are more susceptible to Parvo.....and since this has all happened, I have now been told by a number of vets that Bullmastiffs (this is what we breed/show/are addicted to) and other Giant breeds are more susceptible to Parvo?? So, has anyone heard of using blood plasma to boost immunity??

Our dogs have always had annual vaccinations, but I am going to look into doing titer testing to check their immune levels.......didn't know anything about this before now & I am really interested to check their levels.

Missymoo, I was interested to read your post about Hef.......I am so glad that he fought it so hard & made it through!! My little Logan is on his 3rd day of no vomiting, keeping his food down & his stools are almost solid again........he definitely didn't get the full-blown version like all the poor other babies, but I am so glad that I have 1 baby left to spoil & help me get through all this.

I have seen so many different 'success rates' that I am really confused........some say 85-90%, some say 50% and one vet with one of the little babies that went to Sydney told the owner that there was only a 7% success rate in a pup so young?? Whichever one is correct, my babies were definitely doomed to the lower success rate for some reason or another........that is with at least 7 different vet surgeries around the country, treating each pup with the 'normal' Parvo treatment of IV Fluids, anti nausea medication, antibiotics, protein something-or-other & two even had blood transfusions - one died & the other is the little girl who is still fighting it.

The vast majority of these babies came down sick the one day, the next they had brightened a little & ate small amounts (two vets even let them go home with treatment as they considered them out of danger), then the 3rd day took a real turn for the worse and then most died on their 4th or 5th day at the vets. A couple even seemed to stabilise after their 3rd or 4th day & things looked hopeful, then went downhill really fast & died regardless of treatment.

My vet told me that they had obviously contracted the virus during their 'window of vulnerability' where the mother's antibodies are wearing off, but the vaccine hadn't had time to work?

Since this has all happened, I hear that Parvo has been running wild lately......is this true? and if it is, why don't they put it in the newspapers warning everyone that it is around??

Cavalier, you say that you treat about 5 a week.......do you find that it is more around in any particular season? I have been told that it is more common in the summer months?? It is spring at the moment, but we have had some really weird 'heat waves' & was wondering if that could have 'wakened' it early?

I would love to have some answers for these 'unanswerable' questions, and I know that it is now too late for my poor babies, but it is really frustrating not knowing why Parvo was soooo deadly in this case??

I forgot to mention also in my post, that although my poor buyers have suffered a lot of heartache at losing their new babies, I have given them a full refund for their puppy (not much of a consolation, though) and will repay them for their airflights & vet bills.......it's bad enough that this has happened to them, but I definitely don't want them out of pocket as well as heartbroken. And to add insult to injury, it has also put a stop to them being able to add another baby to their family until their environment is 'safe'.

On that point, what is everyone's opinion about the time frame before they are able to bring another puppy into their environment.......another highly debatable point, obviously, as I have read anywhere from 4 months to 5 years!!

Has anyone on this forum personally used Parvaid & had success with it? It is a real pity that I still won't know if this could have been a saviour for my puppies.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me with answers & for all of your condolences.......it means a lot to me to know that others care.

[Georgieboy]

My heart breaks for you and all your puppy buyers. I cant imagine you heartbreak and (probably selfishly) only hope that I never have to be faced with a situation such as that. The way you've handled this is a credit to you.

I can offer no knowledge on parvo to you, but thank you to opening my eyes to this devestating virus and I'm now going to do some research on it.

RIP little ones, know that you were loved very much both by those that brought you into the world and those who took you into theirs.

[memrabull]

I'm not sure if I have uploaded this properly, but this is one of my favourite photos........and one that I now treasure more than ever!!

It is my little Mater giving his mummy a kiss at nearly 3 weeks old......

[poocow]

We have a (calculated from our cases) 90% success rate with hospital treatment. We class success as the puppy surviving and having no long lasting effects from the virus. Most cases are in hospital for less than 5 days. Treatment at our hospital involves IV fluids, antibiotics, anti-nausea medication and glucose.

My boy is a survivor, but in your classification would not be a success as even now 6 years later he has repercussions from parvo.

Also Cavalier and staranis, I had a litter by this Parvo recovered dog and a bitch that didnt contract the virus, would the pups (who are now 4 months old) have high tolerence to Parvo from mums imunity and her being expossed?? (Yes they are still all vaccinated!!)

The pups would have got some immunity through mums antibodies but would need their vaccinations to ensure they maintain this immunity as they are no longer being fed by mum.

[Staranais]

Also Cavalier and staranis, I had a litter by this Parvo recovered dog and a bitch that didnt contract the virus, would the pups (who are now 4 months old) have high tolerence to Parvo from mums imunity and her being expossed?? (Yes they are still all vaccinated!!)

The pups would have got some immunity through mums antibodies but would need their vaccinations to ensure they maintain this immunity as they are no longer being fed by mum.

Yes that's correct, the pups are initially protected by the antibodies in mum's colostrum (the "milk" which is produced in the few days after birth) but this wears off gradually and the pups must be vaccinated to induce them to produce their own antibodies etc after that.

The pups won't have any long lasting protection from the antibodies in the colostrum, the very longest I have heard it lasting for is 14 - 16 weeks (and protection wearing off by 8 - 12 weeks is much more usual).

[memrabull]

poocow,

Did your little guy show the repurcussions right from the start, or did they only show up at a later date??

This is also a concern for me, not just with my little Logan (who didn't have a serious case of Parvo), but also with little Po who is still fighting it after a huge battle.........what is her prognosis likely to be, and what sort of repurcussions are we talking about?