Drive Question

[corvus]

Why is it that Kivi Tarro has a threshold in excitement level so that when he is anywhere below that threshold, he will duck if I throw something to him to catch, but as soon as he reaches that threshold he switches to wanting nothing more than for me to throw that toy so he can catch it? Once he has passed that threshold, he'll play a little tug, but mostly he just wants me to throw the toy so he can catch it. Not far, as he wants to be as close to it as possible and I have to keep telling him to back up to give me room to toss it.

It fascinates me that when he comes back down past that threshold, he will just stop trying to catch it. If I throw it to him then he ducks. He'll still play tug games and chase a ball, but not interested in catching anymore and I know I'm on borrowed time with tug and chasing as well.

I've been saying "Ready! Ready!" to get him revved for catching stuff, and yesterday for the first time I got him revved enough to catch something while we were out of the yard. I was excited by this, but now I don't know what to do with it. Can I use it? It worked pretty well yesterday to get his mind off the rowdy game of frisbee he wanted to play with some other dogs. Once he'd caught a stick a few times he lost interest in catching and games of frisbee.

[dogdude]

Hi Corvus

Prey drive needs an element of chase, and difficulty keep the dog stimulated.

The prey naturally moves away from the dog, and is difficult to catch. If the prey is coming towards the dog, or is caught a little too easily, often,....then those important elements of prey drive are weakened, and dog loses interest quickly. (hence why many dogs lose interest after just a few throws of a tennis ball, the game becomes too predictable and easy)

Building strong prey drive should involve a level of frustration also. You need to make the dog really think that he has acheived something to catch it.

Only letting him catch the item when showing maximum effort for it, is a must, and in sepperate drive building exercises, you can enhance the level of frustration further, by restraining him after a release, and use a fine balance of restraint and letting him catch the item.

You can do this on a tie out, or sometimes I just bend over and keep my arm between the dog and the item,(on dogs chest) and keep your item just close enough for the dog to follow it, while circling. (maybe not with a big dog) (mine staffy).

[corvus]

Thanks for the reply, dogdude.

Kivi naturally has pretty low drive (for a herding dog). It took me about 12 months just to get him to catch something in the first place! What interests me is why does he especially want to catch when he is highly aroused, but at other times it's easy enough to get him to tug or chase?

I've played games like you describe holding my hand against Kivi's chest while he pushes against it to get at something. It doesn't really heighten his arousal, though. It's still a low drive activity compared to catching. I mean, it's high compared to lying down having cuddles, but not as high as catching.

[Vickie]

never mind.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Vickie

[corvus]

I have a video of him learning to do it somewhere, but I'll have to download it. I don't really need him to catch things, I'm just interested to know what's going on in his head. There's a definite step. Most of the time when I wave something in front of him he just watches, but I know when he's keen to catch it because the look in his eye changes and he tenses up and looks like he's going to come towards it.

He prefers to catch small, soft objects. I didn't have anything on me the other day, so I just grabbed a stick. I do realise sticks and dogs don't always mix well.

Once he's caught it he pretty much immediately spits it out or throws it back at me for another go. Sometimes he mouths it a bit first. Sometimes he starts a little game of tug, but mostly he just wants me to throw it again.

I have tried bouncing it or rolling it away from him. He's not very fast. He chases it and stops it and sometimes brings it back, but I can do that anytime. Don't you think it's interesting that he only catches when he's very aroused and then it's his favourite thing to do? I think it's weird that he can still be drivey, chasing stuff and playing tug, but not want to catch, but then it will change with a little more arousal to ONLY wanting to catch. Maybe it's situational? I don't think he was that worked up when I taught it to him, but I think it caused him to get more worked up, and maybe that made it more rewarding for him and now it's sort of a feedback loop. Does that sound crazy?

[alpha bet]

One of the difficulties that trainers experience is that they tend to work to their schedule and not the animals.

If a dog doesn't have a natural high drive you have to become more sensitive and cut the training before the dog looses interest. If that means after four times of repeating an excercise your dog seems to shift his attention then you work on three repeats and then move onto a different excercise.

As trainers we all have our preferred way of working dogs, but in truth we should work to the dogs abilities. Develop the dog in the format that works for him. Some dogs are just more layback and these guys will always lag behind a high drive dog in competition but the layback dude is a far better family pet as the high drive dog doesnt receive the activity in the average family.

High drive can also work against competition if focus and concentration is lost. It is common to see highdrive Border Collies overrun the agility course.

Find your dogs optimum learning and work to that and dont overwork him.

[Aidan]

Hi Corvus, I'm not sure if you're looking for a solution or an explanation? This falls under "establishing operations" in behaviour analysis.

[corvus]

An explanation. I read about establishing operations and I'm not sure how this fits in. Why does he go from ducking to catching with just a small increase in arousal? Is it because catching is only rewarding when he's really drivey? Or more rewarding when he's drivey? It seems like when he's really drivey he anticipates the catch whereas when he's not, catching doesn't even occur to him. Why the polarity for something most dogs do in any level of drive?

I tried to get some video today but he was kinda borderline so he was wild about tug but not quite at catch level. I did get some footage of him ducking, though. I'll see if I can put something together to post just because I think it's interesting.

It didn't help that just as he was getting really focused Erik kept leaping on him and biting him in a million places at once.

[Kelpie-i]

Working in drive is a good way of distracting a dog from that which they may be uncomfortable/fearful of. Could it be that he may be somewhat uncomfortable with either your hand motion or the toy when not in drive?

I believe the behaviour you are seeing could very well be the result of some sort of experience with the fetch. Somewhere, somehow......

[Aidan]

Why does he go from ducking to catching with just a small increase in arousal? Is it because catching is only rewarding when he's really drivey? Or more rewarding when he's drivey? It seems like when he's really drivey he anticipates the catch whereas when he's not, catching doesn't even occur to him. Why the polarity for something most dogs do in any level of drive?

I'm not sure that most dogs will do it at any level of drive. My Goldie needs a wide open space before he'll consider catching anything, but if the setting is right he is a ball retrieval maniac who will swim himself to exhaustion if allowed. Toss the same ball in our back yard and he will roll over and wait for you to rub his belly.

The "small increase in arousal" that you describe is establishing operations for that dog.

[corvus]

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks guys.