Intermediate Bridges

[Diva]

I think I use them in training for things like stays or recalls etc as an encouragement to keep going with what they are doing. But once the behaviour is taught I can't think of any thing that I would use it for.

For example I am training my dog to do a sendaway for UD trialling, I send my dog into the box, and then I tell her to wait or use soothing words to keep her calm and in there because she knows that going into the box gets the reward but I'm trying to increase how long she sits in the box before being rewarded. Once she's got it I will phase that wait command and the soothing tones because she won't need it.

Yep. Exactly how I would think they would used in that exercise.

[JulesP]

Diva I make sure that the dog does succeed in that sort of situation. The bridging actually helps that.

I would consider touch to be a primary reinforcer.

[Staranais]

I use a keep going signal, which the same thing as Kayce Cover's IB as far as I can tell. I think that when I'm teaching a new behaviour, any more information I can give the dog is a good thing. The keep going signal is a way of communicating something along the lines of "you're getting warmer" or "keep doing that for just a bit longer".

The terminal bridge I use is always reinforced by the reward (which is the toy, food, play, touch - all of which I consider to be primary reinforcers).

The keep going signal is reinforced by the terminal bridge.

[Diva]

Diva I make sure that the dog does succeed in that sort of situation. The bridging actually helps that.

I would consider touch to be a primary reinforcer.

I don't think I could ensure success if it is not an exercise the dog is already proficient in - how can I make sure a dog won't break the stay? I do aim for errorless learning in stays but I can't guarantee it.

I tend to think of primary reinforcers as things the dog needs, but I'm OK if people think touch is one of those. Not sure my snooty sighthounds would agree they need it, but it is reasonably effective for them.

Staranais, I've always called them a KGS too.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Diva

[dogdude]

I also use verbal feedback in my drive training (no clicker).

I use it for teaching dumbell hold, and building endurance into heeling and focus among other things.

"keep going" feedback and NRMs speed up learning in high drive dogs IMO.

[piper]

I went to the seminar in Adelaide by Kayce Cover the author of the article a few years back. She does use the ib differently to how most people use a keep going signal. That is it is a very fast repetitive noise that is continued for the entire time the dog is working towards the end behaviour. As opposed to the way a keep going signal tends to be given occassionally along the path to the behaviour.

Did I like it? I tried it. I found it difficut. Piper tended to stop what she was doing more frequently I felt when using the ib than not, but that could be that she was trained "traditional" clicker method - say nothing during and then bridge. So a noise from m tended to make her stop and move in for a reward. She did however learn to target using other body parts over the course of the weekend, but I could probably have got them anyway it is just we took the time to work on them during the practical sessions of the seminar.

I found it tiring to use, trying to keep up a constant stream of communication and I also wondered how it would transate to trial/performance behaviours given that the ceasing of an ib was supposed to mean "you are doing it wrong" - so how would you phase a constant stream of noise to nothing? It was a system developed for husbandry with zoo animals and I guess the constant feedback there serves a purpose and there would not be the same need to ever wean it back to no feedback needed.

Was interesting to reread the article (I have a whole manual on it somewhere?) and reminded me that teaching body part targets was fun and I should give them a go with Jazz

[Staranais]

I found it tiring to use, trying to keep up a constant stream of communication and I also wondered how it would transate to trial/performance behaviours given that the ceasing of an ib was supposed to mean "you are doing it wrong" - so how would you phase a constant stream of noise to nothing? It was a system developed for husbandry with zoo animals and I guess the constant feedback there serves a purpose and there would not be the same need to ever wean it back to no feedback needed.

The videos I've seen of Synalia (Kayce Cover's system) showed her often using the IB in "cycles", i.e not always using continuous marking, but like for example if she's cuing the dog to hold a longer down she gives 8 or 10 marks (one "cycle), then waits a while, then gives 8 or 10 more marks, then another pause, then another cycle, etc. So the idea was that you don't need to IB continuously for 10 minutes to mark a 10 min down, you just intermittently give some cycles to support the dog & tell them they're doing well.

So that was how you cease the IB - you gradually move the cycles further and further apart, until you don't have to IB at all for the entire duration of the behaviour. And since the animal is used to the IB coming in "cycles" with pauses in between, they don't fret about the pauses gradually getting a bit longer.

Did she show that in the seminar? Or perhaps I have hold of the wrong end of the stick, since I've never actually seen her work in person, and could be totally misleading you.

[corvus]

Interesting stuff.

[piper]

So that was how you cease the IB - you gradually move the cycles further and further apart, until you don't have to IB at all for the entire duration of the behaviour. And since the animal is used to the IB coming in "cycles" with pauses in between, they don't fret about the pauses gradually getting a bit longer.

Did she show that in the seminar? Or perhaps I have hold of the wrong end of the stick, since I've never actually seen her work in person, and could be totally misleading you.

That seems to ring a bell now you mention it. I should try and find my notes. We didn't use it in cycles but everyone was introducing it and teaching new targets with it so I guess we weren't going for duration so that bit probably didn't stick in my head.

[m-j]

I think there's a danger in using an intermediate bridge as a bit of a crutch and ending up meeting the criteria a bit messily if other things creep in. I kinda feel like my dogs aren't ready for another level of communication, either.

I have only used a verbal IB /KGS (Kaycee says there is a difference and I have seen explanations as to why but I wasn't clever enough to work it out) for getting duration on targets, but having said that I used it on my goat when teaching a stand for examination (which i taught with a duration target to my hand) to take my hand away and and let the goat know that he was still doing the right thing even though the training picture was changing. I have unwittingly taught my dogs a body language kgs when I was teaching trial ring heeling, I drop my body out of "trial ring" stance and they go ok work time is over.

I believe you do need to establish a KGS/IB and I do it with a known behaviour (like a recall, as it has two components the coming to and arriving, that go hand in hand) for the dog to know what it means. Teaching a KGS and a behaviour at the same time is too hard for most animals, training two unknown things at once can become confusing as how does the animal differentiate between the two different requirements is the way I think about it, the lines are fuzzy so to speak.

As others have said you can "fade" the IB/KGS through relying on the behaviour being classically conditioned and having the small breaks in between the sound which you gradually make longer.

Variations of this training has been around for a long time as I mentioned in the other thread this is what we did with the horses over 30 yrs ago and as people have mentioned it has been used in training for many years, it's just that it didn't have a name, but terminology is very handy when teaching humans training concepts.

cheers

M-J

So that was how you cease the IB - you gradually move the cycles further and further apart, until you don't have to IB at all for the entire duration of the behaviour. And since the animal is used to the IB coming in "cycles" with pauses in between, they don't fret about the pauses gradually getting a bit longer

.

OOps sorry didn't realise you had replied already

Edited September 25, 2009 by m-j