The Send Away

[Seita]

How long has it taken for your dogs to 'get' this exercise. Just the go to the box bit, I haven't even got to the go over the jumps bit yet!

It feels as though I've been working on this for ages (a few months now) and my dog still doesn't fully understand the exercise.

If I do the first sendaway (for the training session) from about 4-5 metres away she nearly always gets it and then I can increase the distance from there and she gets most of them... but if the first sendaway for the session is done from further away (even if it's only 6-7 metres) she doesn't get it and stops half way there or just outside the box. Obviously she doesn't fully understand the exercise at the greater distance but I can't seem to increase it past about 5 meters without her getting confused! At 5 metres away she nails it probably 95% but if I even take another step back she gets confused.

Anyone got any helpful suggestions for how to increase the distance from the box without her getting so confused??

[Kavik]

How did you teach her to go to the box?

[Seita]

first off I started by running with her beside me to the box and sort of luring/guiding her in. She didn't really get it that way, so I starting luring her into the box from beside me when we were directly in front of the box. And once she started to click that I wanted her to jump in there and sit I started moving back from the box but we seem to be stalled at around 5 metres.

[Tassie]

Have you thought about using a target?

[Seita]

Have you thought about using a target?

I have never used targets so I'm not entirely sure how to do that

[laffi]

I have shaped send away to the box and it took me about 1-2 weeks.

(I have not done the directed jumping from the box)

I would not run with the dog, as it's a very different image for the dog to run with you and to make a decision to leave you and go for the box.

Having said all that I am an agility person and just train obedience for fun.... :rolleyes:

[Seita]

I have shaped send away to the box and it took me about 1-2 weeks.

(I have not done the directed jumping from the box)

I would not run with the dog, as it's a very different image for the dog to run with you and to make a decision to leave you and go for the box.

Having said all that I am an agility person and just train obedience for fun.... :rolleyes:

Could you tell me how you shaped this? Shaping is something that I haven't done either and really don't have much of an idea on how to do this!

[Tassie]

There are probably some threads on DOL, but I just did a search for target training dogs on my favourite search engine, www.dogpile.com, and it came up with quite a few useful looking links.

e.g. This one

and Another one

You can train a target using a clicker or a verbal marker - like most things, it's probably "quicker with a clicker" .

I love to have a dog trained to target - both hands, and targets on the ground and other places. I find it a very useful tool for a variety of disciplines.

[ness]

I wouldn't worry about using a target as the box is essentially a big target. Sue H showed at her seminar in Adelaide how to shape the dog going into the box and its a very quick process and the method I had already used with my baby.

If it would help Seita I can try and do a video tomorrow using Kenzie.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ness

[Kavik]

I would also shape going into the box with a clicker. I did this when I was considering teaching running contacts with Rachel Sander's Box method. Kaos is clicker savvy and it only took me 2 short sessions of a couple of minutes each for him to offer going into the box with all 4 feet in the box. While the running contact method gets the dog to jump into and then out of the box, the beginning would be similar, of shaping getting into the box.

Susan Garrett in her One Jump DVD also explains why a method like this of building value works well.

Although these are agility methods, I think it would work well for this obedience exercise.

[Ptolomy]

ARGH - dog in the box can you hear me screaming........ After all this time does my OC dog know the exercise NOOOOOOOOO

Usually Scoota doesn't have a problem with finding the box in a "normal" UD ring. Make it look any different at all - so put some extra jumps and weave poles outside the ring like we did on Sunday - tell him box and he runs and does the weavers. :p

Hmm set him up again point to the box, send him and he runs to the furthest corner of the yard and sits next to a jump.

I ended up going 3m away from the box and sending him and clicking and treating when he got it right. We then went back to half way and went through the same process......

Guess who has obedience at the Royal this Sunday.

Just more proof that OC stands for occassionally clever

I teach box at a young age and usually start with a hula hoop, clicking and treating to begin with for any interaction.

[ness]

Don't tell me he is still broken Ptolomy - Ness has broken boxes too at the moment . Maybe I should do a video with her instead. I am sure Scoota will be fine by the weekend you still have a few days to unbreak him and just as well there will be no weavers in the middle of the UD ring at the Royal :p .

[Seita]

A video would be awesome Ness!

We did a session this morning which was a whole lot better than yesterdays. I sent her from a few metres away and she ran part way there then turns and faced me. I said 'oops' (her NRM) and she moved a bit closer to the box, I said 'oops' again and she went and jumped in the box. I did a few more send aways gradually moving back to about 15 meters and she did them all perfectly.

Ptolomy - I feel your pain, I purposfully move the box around the yard so she learns to go into the box not just go to one part of the yard and yesterday I think she got confused by the sandpit that was behind the box so when I sent her to the box she ran through the box and sat in the sandpit!!!

This is my first time doing UD and unfortunately there is only one other person in my club who is in UD at the moment and I don't particularly like their training methods.

[JulesP]

Perhaps it is not so much a lack of understanding but more a not wanting to go so far from you?? Both my borders have a set distance that they are happy to go away from me! Even when doing a cast on sheep, Poppy will only go so far and will then turn back and she lovessss sheep.

I had been doing a send around the bin and found the same thing. Poppy will go so far and if I push the distance will turn back.

Same with running free with other dogs. They go a certain distance and then stop.

Don't have a way to fix it though!

[leopuppy04]

I have shaped send away to the box and it took me about 1-2 weeks.

(I have not done the directed jumping from the box)

I would not run with the dog, as it's a very different image for the dog to run with you and to make a decision to leave you and go for the box.

Having said all that I am an agility person and just train obedience for fun.... :D

Ditto here.

I also wasn't worried about increasing distance right away. It took me about 1-2 sessions to successfully shape the box, and 1-2 weeks to get the full exercise working

I just C&T whenever the dog put a paw (or 4!) in the box. Once they were doing that reliably, I would then (lure) the sit position.

I would move the box around, move my body around and send them from weird and wonderful angles. No issues.

From about 1m away I would hold on to their collar and say "readyyy settt GO" and release them to run to the box.

I would always throw a toy behind them once we are at this stage.

The dog should remain seated while I move the box around. I would work on getting them into the box from me sitting, back turned, lying on my belly.... you get the picture.

It is only at this stage where the dog is literally BURSTING to get to the box because of all the 'good things' it holds that I would add distance

[ness]

The other thing which somebody suggested to me is to raise the box so the dog was physically having to step into it. Is suppose to make them more aware of the fact they are doing something in relation to the object.

If Ella/you haven't done much shaping then maybe try it on something not obedience related to get her into the swing of the game before reintroducing/trying the process with the box.

[Kavik]

The other thing which somebody suggested to me is to raise the box so the dog was physically having to step into it. Is suppose to make them more aware of the fact they are doing something in relation to the object.

If Ella/you haven't done much shaping then maybe try it on something not obedience related to get her into the swing of the game before reintroducing/trying the process with the box.

Yep raising the box was also suggested for the running A-Frame - worked really well too

[Seita]

The other thing which somebody suggested to me is to raise the box so the dog was physically having to step into it. Is suppose to make them more aware of the fact they are doing something in relation to the object.

If Ella/you haven't done much shaping then maybe try it on something not obedience related to get her into the swing of the game before reintroducing/trying the process with the box.

I think Ella does understand that the object of the exercise is to go into the box but doesn't quite understand it from further away. The reason I think she understands is that this morning when she didn't go into the box I gave her a NRM and she moved a bit closer, with another NRM she went and hopped in the box. I just can't seem to get further from the box than about 5 mtrs....

[Kavik]

Maybe work on adding more value to getting into the box rather than getting fixated on distance.

Very easy to get fixated on distance in agility too.

Susan Garrett in her One Jump DVD outlined an exercise they did at a camp. They got into pairs and one person was to try to get as much distance as they could for getting into the box and dropping and the other person was to get into as many positions as possible (sitting, lying down, different positions relative to box etc). At the end she got each partner to show what they had done, and then got the person who taught positions to take their dog to the same distance their partner had gone and then further. She found that those that had built value for the box by teaching as many positions as possible understood the exercise better and found the box rewarding and were able to get more distance and faster responses than those who trained for distance only.

So maybe go closer and work on proofing the understanding of the box. Will she go to the box regardless of where you are relative to the box? If you are sitting down? Lying down? Facing the other way? etc.

[Seita]

Maybe work on adding more value to getting into the box rather than getting fixated on distance.

Very easy to get fixated on distance in agility too.

Susan Garrett in her One Jump DVD outlined an exercise they did at a camp. They got into pairs and one person was to try to get as much distance as they could for getting into the box and dropping and the other person was to get into as many positions as possible (sitting, lying down, different positions relative to box etc). At the end she got each partner to show what they had done, and then got the person who taught positions to take their dog to the same distance their partner had gone and then further. She found that those that had built value for the box by teaching as many positions as possible understood the exercise better and found the box rewarding and were able to get more distance and faster responses than those who trained for distance only.

So maybe go closer and work on proofing the understanding of the box. Will she go to the box regardless of where you are relative to the box? If you are sitting down? Lying down? Facing the other way? etc.

Good point... I don't know if she would go to the box if I were doing something different - probably not. So are you saying that I teach her to go to the box with me being in a variety of locations and positions... or do I teach her a range of positions in the box? I can feel an experiment coming on when I get home this arvo!